US Recon Marine
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If I may, I personally am a bit irritated with the recent news on what "other" countries will do if they get UBL before the US. Now, before you go predicting what I am about to say, since as you can see by my profile I am an American living in Texas, hear me out as you may be surprised. What bothers me is the overall consensus that if caught UBL should be turned over to us. Well folks, I disagree. If UBL is captured I think he should be taken before an international tribunal in Den Haag (The Hague). As much as I would personally like to see him die for his crimes, we all know capital punishment is an option if this route is taken; but in all fairness there were citizens from a lot of other countries that perished in the September 11 attacks and they have a right to the same judicial process as we Americans.
I will not kid you in stating I wouldn't be happy to see UBL sent to meet his maker via quicker and more brutal methods, as I am sure the author of the letter that started this thread is eager to conduct; but we all must remember that after any vile incident such as 9/11 we must maintain our ethical standards otherwise we are no better than the animals that committed these cowardly crimes.
Just my two cents/Euros...
I will not kid you in stating I wouldn't be happy to see UBL sent to meet his maker via quicker and more brutal methods, as I am sure the author of the letter that started this thread is eager to conduct; but we all must remember that after any vile incident such as 9/11 we must maintain our ethical standards otherwise we are no better than the animals that committed these cowardly crimes.
Just my two cents/Euros...
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Tigs, you said "kbf....you are entitled to your opinion." But you don't think I'm entitled to mine! Evelyn Hall (not Voltaire any more) would not be impressed.
It really is best not to become irritated over all this. None of it means anything and folk never change their opinions, so stay loose.
Your spirited post loses some impact through becoming personal and a lack of attention to detail, but I have no quarrel with your passionate remarks about NI and the Irish/American money that has helped to sustain the conflict. But it has only helped. There have been several other external contributors over the years. But enough, if we are not to incur Danny's wrath. Others may care to read the reference:
http://www.nio.gov.uk/pdf/secstats.pdf
You give nothing away about your persona as a relatively new arrival under that handle so you have no credibility yet. For myself, I am a British patriot with robust views about wimps and yoghurt-eating tree-huggers. I also owe a great personal debt to the US and hold that nation in high esteem even though it is no more perfect any more than the UK is/was. But tolerance and forgiveness of lapses of behaviour amongst friends is essential.
I, too, acknowledge kbf's emollient remarks and "apology" to WC. I would have been even more impressed had he not weasel-worded it
[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: fobotcso ]
It really is best not to become irritated over all this. None of it means anything and folk never change their opinions, so stay loose.
Your spirited post loses some impact through becoming personal and a lack of attention to detail, but I have no quarrel with your passionate remarks about NI and the Irish/American money that has helped to sustain the conflict. But it has only helped. There have been several other external contributors over the years. But enough, if we are not to incur Danny's wrath. Others may care to read the reference:
http://www.nio.gov.uk/pdf/secstats.pdf
You give nothing away about your persona as a relatively new arrival under that handle so you have no credibility yet. For myself, I am a British patriot with robust views about wimps and yoghurt-eating tree-huggers. I also owe a great personal debt to the US and hold that nation in high esteem even though it is no more perfect any more than the UK is/was. But tolerance and forgiveness of lapses of behaviour amongst friends is essential.
I, too, acknowledge kbf's emollient remarks and "apology" to WC. I would have been even more impressed had he not weasel-worded it
[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: fobotcso ]
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Let's go through some of this, for the avoidance of any doubt:
The comments about LA gangs were to highlight the extrapolation of an argument. If we accept that both a "tribe" and a "gang" share a common social construction and both have a feudal modus operandi in terms of settling disputes over territory, then we can accept that there is perceptibly no difference between he two types of group. Therefore when either a tribe in Afghanistan or a gang in LA fight over territory it is fair to say it can be considered feudal. Therefore the only difference between the two in practical concerns are the perceptions of the outsider. Therefore if the author of the letter perceieves the Afghan fighters as "Huns" then he either also perceieves street gangs as Huns, or he differentiates purely on the basis of the nationality of the gang or tribe. Further, the issue was not about comparative race issues in the US or UK, but about commonly held perceptions which deny a degree of persona and humanity to one nationality while imparting it on another. This at an intellectual level is no better than the purpetrators of the 11 Sept atrocities.
What bothers me is that politics has lost its will to lead and now follows public opinion, and therefore winning an election becomes a publicity contest and a race to the finish line. If we as voters begin to view the Afghan people as somehow sub-human because they do not share a common culture then we run the risk of falling to the lowest common denominator of opinion, and the net result is a policy that reflects opinion. The danger then is that the US (and any other involved nation) starts to bomb Afghanistan because it is the poular thing to do, not because it is the strategically right thing to do. It also needs to be noted that the only people that are really loosing out right now are the innocent Afghans as the middle ranking Taliban will at some point be offered an amnysty and most likely a piece of the aid pot to keep them onside. Meanwhile the remaining roads and infrastructure will have been denied to those that need them most.
The comment was made that I used the term carpet bombing without substantiating the claim. Without being able to recall the exact dates of the incidents or the names of the locations, but there was much coverage in the UK of a Red Cross aid station that was hit not once, but twice as well as a village that was raised to the ground resulting in numerous civilian casualties (though i accept that the press could not verify the exact number of civilian dead, and in any case it was far less than claimed by the Taliban). This evidences the claim that bombing in this scenario is indiscriminate even when carefully planned not to be.
In terms of alignment of US and UK policy, one example of this not being true is Colin Powell's comments in Paris yesterday about the UK leading a multi-national peace keeping force that was rebutted when he arrived in London. It may be that the US wishes the UK to take a lead, but it is not in the UK's best interest to become bogged down in more peace keeping operations given the current recruiting issues in the army, and the over-commitment that already exists as a result of peace keeping operations, especially in the supporting arms.
MajMadMax: a good point well made. I think the one thing that the US will find difficult to accept is that any international court in The Hague would not hand down a death sentence. To be fully effective, and to send the right message OB-L needs to be tried, convicted, and condemned by an Islamic court and the sentence carried out in such a way so as not to give cause for the followers of his brand of hard-line Islam to be able to say that he was put to death as a result of an infidel court. They will still say he was put to death because of the West, but they cannot claim he was put to death in the West. It would also deny him the Martyr's death he so desires, and nothing acts as a better recruiting aid than martyrdom, and he knows that.
The comments about LA gangs were to highlight the extrapolation of an argument. If we accept that both a "tribe" and a "gang" share a common social construction and both have a feudal modus operandi in terms of settling disputes over territory, then we can accept that there is perceptibly no difference between he two types of group. Therefore when either a tribe in Afghanistan or a gang in LA fight over territory it is fair to say it can be considered feudal. Therefore the only difference between the two in practical concerns are the perceptions of the outsider. Therefore if the author of the letter perceieves the Afghan fighters as "Huns" then he either also perceieves street gangs as Huns, or he differentiates purely on the basis of the nationality of the gang or tribe. Further, the issue was not about comparative race issues in the US or UK, but about commonly held perceptions which deny a degree of persona and humanity to one nationality while imparting it on another. This at an intellectual level is no better than the purpetrators of the 11 Sept atrocities.
What bothers me is that politics has lost its will to lead and now follows public opinion, and therefore winning an election becomes a publicity contest and a race to the finish line. If we as voters begin to view the Afghan people as somehow sub-human because they do not share a common culture then we run the risk of falling to the lowest common denominator of opinion, and the net result is a policy that reflects opinion. The danger then is that the US (and any other involved nation) starts to bomb Afghanistan because it is the poular thing to do, not because it is the strategically right thing to do. It also needs to be noted that the only people that are really loosing out right now are the innocent Afghans as the middle ranking Taliban will at some point be offered an amnysty and most likely a piece of the aid pot to keep them onside. Meanwhile the remaining roads and infrastructure will have been denied to those that need them most.
The comment was made that I used the term carpet bombing without substantiating the claim. Without being able to recall the exact dates of the incidents or the names of the locations, but there was much coverage in the UK of a Red Cross aid station that was hit not once, but twice as well as a village that was raised to the ground resulting in numerous civilian casualties (though i accept that the press could not verify the exact number of civilian dead, and in any case it was far less than claimed by the Taliban). This evidences the claim that bombing in this scenario is indiscriminate even when carefully planned not to be.
In terms of alignment of US and UK policy, one example of this not being true is Colin Powell's comments in Paris yesterday about the UK leading a multi-national peace keeping force that was rebutted when he arrived in London. It may be that the US wishes the UK to take a lead, but it is not in the UK's best interest to become bogged down in more peace keeping operations given the current recruiting issues in the army, and the over-commitment that already exists as a result of peace keeping operations, especially in the supporting arms.
MajMadMax: a good point well made. I think the one thing that the US will find difficult to accept is that any international court in The Hague would not hand down a death sentence. To be fully effective, and to send the right message OB-L needs to be tried, convicted, and condemned by an Islamic court and the sentence carried out in such a way so as not to give cause for the followers of his brand of hard-line Islam to be able to say that he was put to death as a result of an infidel court. They will still say he was put to death because of the West, but they cannot claim he was put to death in the West. It would also deny him the Martyr's death he so desires, and nothing acts as a better recruiting aid than martyrdom, and he knows that.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Gladstone:
"Remember the rights of the savage, as we call him. Remember that the happiness of his humble home, remember that the sanctity of life in the hill villages of Afghanistan, among the winter snows, is as inviolable in the eye of Almighty God as can be your own."
Speech at Dalkeith, November 26 1879
Spoken in the middle of Britain's second Afghan war (Britain's first (1838-42) and second (1878-80)). The first ended in the slaughter of 16,000 people, the the army and its camp followers in the British exodus from Kabul.
A remarkably Christian sentiment considering the circumstances and the age!
[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: ORAC ]
"Remember the rights of the savage, as we call him. Remember that the happiness of his humble home, remember that the sanctity of life in the hill villages of Afghanistan, among the winter snows, is as inviolable in the eye of Almighty God as can be your own."
Speech at Dalkeith, November 26 1879
Spoken in the middle of Britain's second Afghan war (Britain's first (1838-42) and second (1878-80)). The first ended in the slaughter of 16,000 people, the the army and its camp followers in the British exodus from Kabul.
A remarkably Christian sentiment considering the circumstances and the age!
[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: ORAC ]
Tigs
I trust you feel relieved after your diatribe. I welcome discussions here about US foreign policy, its one of the few constants. What I cannot accept is the hipocracy preached to by those who have a hard on for the US, its policies etc, when their own countries actions are not exactly as pure as the driven snow. The mention of US funding for the IRA is an embarrasment to me as a first generation Americam of Irish descent. In the very recent past, Israel estimated that 7 million pounds of the 45 million Hamas recieved from overseas came from the UK. I should hope that the same ourage I feel is shared by you.
I trust you feel relieved after your diatribe. I welcome discussions here about US foreign policy, its one of the few constants. What I cannot accept is the hipocracy preached to by those who have a hard on for the US, its policies etc, when their own countries actions are not exactly as pure as the driven snow. The mention of US funding for the IRA is an embarrasment to me as a first generation Americam of Irish descent. In the very recent past, Israel estimated that 7 million pounds of the 45 million Hamas recieved from overseas came from the UK. I should hope that the same ourage I feel is shared by you.
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Looks like the original letter is all B*llSh!!t anyway.
Claim: An expletive-filled letter from "Saucy Jack" detailing conditions in Afghanistan was penned by a Marine serving there.
Status: False.
Although the article has been presented as true on the radio, that shouldn't sway anyone into believing it's the real thing, because radio show hosts are notorious for reading on air items harvested from the Internet that have proved to be fictions.
No doubt this piece is so popular because it contains much that Americans would find appealing. Besides the interest (and novelty) in hearing from a soldier right on the front lines of a war in which we're engaged, it gives voice to ideas that many of us want to believe: that our soldiers are brave and tough (neither a scorpion's sting nor its supposedly transmission fluid-like antidote fazes Saucy Jack the Marine); that our armed forces are a well-organized, technologically advanced fighting machine up against a primitive enemy from a backwards country; that our foes are our inferiors, morally as well as militarily; and that the media often don't know what they're talking about, and we'd all be better off if they just butted out and let our servicemen do their jobs.
Is the story at least believable? Not really -- the narrative is rife with errors and inconsistencies: for example, Ab Gach, the panhandle, and the Hindu Kush mountains are all in the northeast portion of Afghanistan, not the northwest; scorpion antivenin is injected, not drunk; and a true "Recon Marine" wouldn't be broadcasting specifics about his position and mission to the world at large. If this really was the work of a serviceman in Afghanistan, he was deliberately trying to be misleading or funny, not to convey an account of real events.
The "Saucy Jack" letter is as popular as it is because it purports to give insight into the day-to-day reality of a soldier in the field that CNN fails to provide. News emerging from the war in Afghanistan seems rigidly controlled, and the people back home are hungry for information that is not forthcoming. A missive such as this one thus falls on highly receptive ears.
Check this linkfor the full version.
If it was intended to stir up a reaction it has certainly succeeded.
[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: Desert Dingo ]
Claim: An expletive-filled letter from "Saucy Jack" detailing conditions in Afghanistan was penned by a Marine serving there.
Status: False.
Although the article has been presented as true on the radio, that shouldn't sway anyone into believing it's the real thing, because radio show hosts are notorious for reading on air items harvested from the Internet that have proved to be fictions.
No doubt this piece is so popular because it contains much that Americans would find appealing. Besides the interest (and novelty) in hearing from a soldier right on the front lines of a war in which we're engaged, it gives voice to ideas that many of us want to believe: that our soldiers are brave and tough (neither a scorpion's sting nor its supposedly transmission fluid-like antidote fazes Saucy Jack the Marine); that our armed forces are a well-organized, technologically advanced fighting machine up against a primitive enemy from a backwards country; that our foes are our inferiors, morally as well as militarily; and that the media often don't know what they're talking about, and we'd all be better off if they just butted out and let our servicemen do their jobs.
Is the story at least believable? Not really -- the narrative is rife with errors and inconsistencies: for example, Ab Gach, the panhandle, and the Hindu Kush mountains are all in the northeast portion of Afghanistan, not the northwest; scorpion antivenin is injected, not drunk; and a true "Recon Marine" wouldn't be broadcasting specifics about his position and mission to the world at large. If this really was the work of a serviceman in Afghanistan, he was deliberately trying to be misleading or funny, not to convey an account of real events.
The "Saucy Jack" letter is as popular as it is because it purports to give insight into the day-to-day reality of a soldier in the field that CNN fails to provide. News emerging from the war in Afghanistan seems rigidly controlled, and the people back home are hungry for information that is not forthcoming. A missive such as this one thus falls on highly receptive ears.
Check this linkfor the full version.
If it was intended to stir up a reaction it has certainly succeeded.
[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: Desert Dingo ]
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Oh No! I suppose you're going to tell us now that there is no such person as Father Christmas.
{Having a bad day is when you can't even type a one-liner without cocking it up!}
[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: fobotcso ]
{Having a bad day is when you can't even type a one-liner without cocking it up!}
[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: fobotcso ]
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Kbf1
If the opponents of the "war on terrorism" feel able to disparage the latest OBL video as a "stitch-up", surely the supporters of the air operation can be equally cynical?
What is an "innocent Afghan civilian"? Any male big enough to a hold a Kalashnikof seems to pick one up at the start of the shooting season. Kipling alluded to the treatment meted out by tribeswomen to wounded soldiers in the "Afghan wars" and recorded the practice of "keeping the last round for oneself". The Russians were less coy in the '80s and described the standard treatment as having one's tongue removed and replaced by one's genitals.
What is the obvious, observable difference between "innocent civilians" and the Al-Qa'eda? How are you so sure that the village wiped out was not full of the latter?
Does it not strike you as odd, in view of the sophisticated intelligence available to the US that the same Red Cross post was hit twice? Does that not incline you to wonder what was going on there?
I think most people mean by "carpet bombing" the sort of city-busting that went on by night in WW2, when the achievable CEPs were so awful that the only way to have a reasonable chance of taking out a plant was to demolish the city. Sticks of dumb bombs droppped from B-52s and B1s are quite different using current delivery techniques.
I think the RAF is going to have to think again about its ability to deliver conventional ordnance over useful ranges in uncontested airspace. One can imagine a single largish airframe combining this role with AAR and perhaps MR.
If the opponents of the "war on terrorism" feel able to disparage the latest OBL video as a "stitch-up", surely the supporters of the air operation can be equally cynical?
What is an "innocent Afghan civilian"? Any male big enough to a hold a Kalashnikof seems to pick one up at the start of the shooting season. Kipling alluded to the treatment meted out by tribeswomen to wounded soldiers in the "Afghan wars" and recorded the practice of "keeping the last round for oneself". The Russians were less coy in the '80s and described the standard treatment as having one's tongue removed and replaced by one's genitals.
What is the obvious, observable difference between "innocent civilians" and the Al-Qa'eda? How are you so sure that the village wiped out was not full of the latter?
Does it not strike you as odd, in view of the sophisticated intelligence available to the US that the same Red Cross post was hit twice? Does that not incline you to wonder what was going on there?
I think most people mean by "carpet bombing" the sort of city-busting that went on by night in WW2, when the achievable CEPs were so awful that the only way to have a reasonable chance of taking out a plant was to demolish the city. Sticks of dumb bombs droppped from B-52s and B1s are quite different using current delivery techniques.
I think the RAF is going to have to think again about its ability to deliver conventional ordnance over useful ranges in uncontested airspace. One can imagine a single largish airframe combining this role with AAR and perhaps MR.
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Flattus, I suspect the jury will be out on the video you refer to for a while. Certainly the Arabic countries have denounced it as a forgery, however the Americans have gone to great lengths to analyse the manerisms of the key players in the video and have compared it to other videos he has made in recent months. It appears to be genuine.
The fact that a number of Afghans possess guns does not make them either supporters of Al Qaeda or the Taliban, or indeed the Northern Alliance. There is a real danger of this "war" becoming a war against Afghanistan de facto, and not a war against any one faction. It would be synonomous with us bombing XMG and denying roads and infrastructure used by Protestants as well as Catholics under the cover of a "war against terrorism" in response to any supposed act of terrorism committed by, say, the Real/Continuity IRA. The real loosers in all of this are going to be the civilians in spite of what the outcome of the campaign in Afghanistan might be. The winners, however, will be the corrupt local warlords who will cream off cash from any locally deployed aid. If we are to learn anything from our experience in the Balkans and the aid given for re-devel;opment we need to find a way of getting it to the people it is intended for without allowing local "Mr Bigs" to gain.
As for the Red Cross centre, I suspect that the conspiricy theories will abound in the same way they did after the Chinese embassy was hit in Belgrade. It could have been anything from a simple error, to a deliberate atttack, to poor planning. I can't give an answer to that.
It should be noted though, that carpet bombing can still take place even though smaller net areas are laid to waste. As for the RAF's AAR issues, it would be hard to see a PFI provider flying over the theatre of ops.
The fact that a number of Afghans possess guns does not make them either supporters of Al Qaeda or the Taliban, or indeed the Northern Alliance. There is a real danger of this "war" becoming a war against Afghanistan de facto, and not a war against any one faction. It would be synonomous with us bombing XMG and denying roads and infrastructure used by Protestants as well as Catholics under the cover of a "war against terrorism" in response to any supposed act of terrorism committed by, say, the Real/Continuity IRA. The real loosers in all of this are going to be the civilians in spite of what the outcome of the campaign in Afghanistan might be. The winners, however, will be the corrupt local warlords who will cream off cash from any locally deployed aid. If we are to learn anything from our experience in the Balkans and the aid given for re-devel;opment we need to find a way of getting it to the people it is intended for without allowing local "Mr Bigs" to gain.
As for the Red Cross centre, I suspect that the conspiricy theories will abound in the same way they did after the Chinese embassy was hit in Belgrade. It could have been anything from a simple error, to a deliberate atttack, to poor planning. I can't give an answer to that.
It should be noted though, that carpet bombing can still take place even though smaller net areas are laid to waste. As for the RAF's AAR issues, it would be hard to see a PFI provider flying over the theatre of ops.
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kbf1
You took a good idea and made it better, although I really wonder what the outcome of an Islamic court would be. if Usama was tried in one..
As for the video, is there anyone out there that honestly believes UBL was not involved with the attacks of 11 Sep? I think the best summary was provided by the UK Prime Minister's office, which is too lengthy to include here but I can email to anyone who desires a copy. It states clear facts and concludes that the attacks of the 11 September 2001 were planned and carried out by Al Qaida, an organisation whose head is Usama Bin Laden. That organisation has the will, and the resources, to execute further attacks of similar scale. Both the United States and its close allies are targets for such attacks. The attack could not have occurred without the alliance between the Taleban and Usama Bin Laden, which allowed Bin Laden to operate freely in Afghanistan, promoting, planning and executing terrorist activity.
No free nation is safe from these extremists, they have their own interpretation of Islam and the Koran and have decreed a jihad against all non-Muslims. So the last time it was New York and Washington, but next time it might be London, Paris, or Munich. The video was just one small piece of evidence against UBL, what is more important is building the case against him and his terrorists that the Muslim world will accept.
Well, just my two Euros...
Cheers!
You took a good idea and made it better, although I really wonder what the outcome of an Islamic court would be. if Usama was tried in one..
As for the video, is there anyone out there that honestly believes UBL was not involved with the attacks of 11 Sep? I think the best summary was provided by the UK Prime Minister's office, which is too lengthy to include here but I can email to anyone who desires a copy. It states clear facts and concludes that the attacks of the 11 September 2001 were planned and carried out by Al Qaida, an organisation whose head is Usama Bin Laden. That organisation has the will, and the resources, to execute further attacks of similar scale. Both the United States and its close allies are targets for such attacks. The attack could not have occurred without the alliance between the Taleban and Usama Bin Laden, which allowed Bin Laden to operate freely in Afghanistan, promoting, planning and executing terrorist activity.
No free nation is safe from these extremists, they have their own interpretation of Islam and the Koran and have decreed a jihad against all non-Muslims. So the last time it was New York and Washington, but next time it might be London, Paris, or Munich. The video was just one small piece of evidence against UBL, what is more important is building the case against him and his terrorists that the Muslim world will accept.
Well, just my two Euros...
Cheers!
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A Mil Pal tells me there's a modern version of the 'Goolie Chit'... is this true?
http://www.victoriansatwar.net/archives/letters_1.html
ps I'm 'Quartered Safe At Home' and have no personal interest so sorry if I intrude
http://www.victoriansatwar.net/archives/letters_1.html
ps I'm 'Quartered Safe At Home' and have no personal interest so sorry if I intrude
