What would keep you in?

[Ghostie31]

Havent you signed a contract though, Saying that you will stay on for X amount of years? Do you have to repay costs etc, or are their a certain amount of years you have to stay in for to be able to do this?

[BEagle]

'tis at times like this that I look at my logbooks to find out what I was doing in the RAF in the same weeks in past years:

1st 2 weeks of Sep 2002 - 5 AAR trips, 3 sim sessions, notched up my 5000 hrs VC10. Started looking into options outside as I was being worked to death with no let up in sight as 'leaders' wouldn't match assets to tasks. Couldn't believe I was actively considering PVRing.

1st 2 weeks of Sep 1997 - 2 AARI training trips, 2 IRTs (Brize to Bruggen and back), 1 IRT (Brize-Brize) then a week's leave.

1st 2 weeks of Sep 1992 - 19 busy trips at the UAS September Camp - lots of formation and aerobatic instruction.

1st 2 weeks of Sep 1987 - 3 days (classified) training, 'American Night' on the sqn on Friday night, 3 days in Wildenrath (2 nights in a nice hotel in Wassenberg), St.Athan open day static display (weekend in a nice hotel nearby).

1st 2 weeks of Sep 1982 - 6 trips on the F4 at Wattisham, including a Q scamble.

1st 2 weeks of Sep 1977 - 1 trip on the Vulcan OCU, 1 week on leave, lots of free time.

1st 2 weeks of Sep 1972 - Damn all - lazing about at home all summer as a University APO on about £1300 per annum (that's about £17000 in today's money) having just bought an 18 month old secondhand MG Midget - and looking forward to a 40% pay rise as a Plt Off for my final year! Not allowed to attend September Camp as I'd already notched up 75 hours on the UAS and had got my PIFG the previous year at White Waltham and my PFB at the Summer Camp at Newton.

1st 2 weeks of Sep 1967 - learned to fly a T21 with the RAFGSA and was eagerly looking forward to my forthcoming RAF Scholarship (30 hours PPL training).

But nowadays? Bruggen, Wildenrath and Newton now gone, Wattisham full of pongos, White Waltham civvie only and St Athan no longer an RAF station. VC10 IRTs done in the simulator only, Health and Safety and the Food Police have stopped on-sgn parties, no RAF At Home displays, bugger all chance of staying in a half-decent hotel even if you do get a static display. At the bottom - no 30 hour RAF Scholarships, no aeros or formation instruction at UASs, no APOs at University, no Summer Camps away from home unit, no PIFGs, no PFBs.......

And free time??

So glad I joined when I did - and left when I did.

[tablet_eraser]

Originally Posted by AIDU

Following approval of your application you would, on release from air force service, be transferred to the reserve, unless you have completed 22 years’ service, in which case you would be discharged. In either situation you would remain liable to recall.

Not necessarily. I'm on a PC and won't be transferred to the reserves (although I'll join the RAuxAF voluntarily). Automatic transfer to the reserves only happens if you're on a SSC and haven't reached your 6 year point before requesting PVR.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

If one has made the decision to leave, PVR or other, I suggest that there's little which could be offered which would change that decision.With less than a year to my 38/16 point I was offered the "first operational Tornado Sqn" which at the time would have been the Dambusters Sqn., but it was too late, my wife and I had made our plans. As these centred on family, schooling, house purchase etc., the flattering offer of a front line flying tour from a ground tour and the prospect of flying to 50+ was far too late. If that offer had been made at my 38/16 Air Sec's interview 18 months earlier............ However it perhaps typifies MOD/RAF management skills, an area I suggest which has not improved since that time.

[Melchett01]

Wokka has come up with a pretty good list there, but I'm pretty sure the big difference between the RAF in 1942 and now is that in 1942 the majority of us would have had some leave / time off ops at some point and there would have been the assets available to get the job done. Can you imagine what Bomber Harris would have said as he looked at the tote board and realised his 1000 bomber raid was down to a couple of hundred and a few trg ac as the rest were in depth or that the IPT wouldn't authorise 617 to use Barnes Wallis' new bomb because it didn't mean the RTS???

But as for Noo Lab breaking the armed forces to meet their tasking, what do they plan on doing when they have broken us and we are no longer capable of carrying out their tasking? I think the American administration have realised that Tony's / Gordo's commitment to actually giving us the resources to do the job properly is very very thin and that we are becoming as much as a miitary liability as some of our European partners.

And just out of interest .... exactly what would an implosion of the Armed Forces look like? It's not as if we can call a lightening strike or suddenly down tools and not fight the Taleban. We refuse to do secondary duties ... so what they'll say? We can't just all walk out of the gate and not come back - just what would an imposion look like?

[Compressorstall]

We don't need to go on strike, but the thing is that we need to find some way of ensuring we get respected for what we do. There seems to be a perception in some quarters that if you are in the Armed Forces other jobs were a little 'beyond' you - I've definitely seen that amongst some of our elected representatives. Yet they are all to eager to stand up and talk about our great efforts... So what would I like?

- Respect for what we do.
- Respect for our long-suffering familes.
- Pay that really reflects the hardships, committment and loyalty we are expected to demonstrate.
- Decent kit that remains serviceable.
- Commanders who publicly say no.
- Decent infrastructure.
- Housing or a housing allowance.
- Some visible career management for the rest of us who aren't on Typhoon.

It would be a good start.

[Floater AAC]

Ah AIDU now you show you true colours. Quoting references to regs like that mean you clearly have too much time on your hands or you are a shiny arse. There is a name for people that quote things like that:


PAM HEAD (pamphlet head).

[justone26]

A future doing a job that is valued by the government and your bosses, with real career development and conditions that are not getting worse by the day. Obviously this is not going to happen, which is why my pvr went in last week.

[Horror box]

I'm afraid the whole system really is getting beyond repair, and it would have taken a huge shift to keep me in. The drive to save money has hugely devalued the individual and affected every aspect of military life, with a direct result on overall effectiveness. A once proud and great organisation, the envy of militaries throughout the world, really is a memory of the past now.
Now, I really do have to laugh, and the bull***t lasted until the end. My final move home as I was leaving my military life, ended up costing me more than if I had done it myself. The removal company broke a glass table, and told me that they would not replace it. Why, I asked? Answer - If I had been working for any other company, they would have replaced it straight away, but the MOD specifically asked not to have this cover in the contract, as it was the cheapest option. A fitting end to my military life.

[MadAxeMan]

A change of government, one that will match spending to commitments.

Tony and his cronies, Gordon in particular, have done a fantastic job over the past 10 years...

of destroying my Air Force AND my country!

I now feel compelled to leave both.

In short, the MoD (and just about every other govt dept) is bankrupt (curious considering the increase in tax burden), and at a time when it needs more than just a subsistence income. It all started with the fall of the Berlin wall, and John Major's so called 'peace dividend', after that we were s©rewed.

Given an appropriate level of funding, their air-ships would not have to keep re-organising in the vein hope that we will think that something is being done. Moreover, their en-masse resignation would not change a thing, their leadership is irrelevant; although I have not been impressed by many lately.

The people are great, the jobs are interesting and rewarding, the company is pants, and has been for quite some time.

Melchett,

Want to see what an implosion looks like, stick around it is happening right now, at an RAF station near you.

Sad to want to leave, happy to be going.

(>|<)

[bayete]

If PMA had offered a 16/38 PC transfer from my SSC rather than 18/40 (while still on Pension 75) 1 1/2 years ago I would have taken it, and I told PMA that.
They wanted an extra 2... they lost 5!!
In the last year I could start to see the light at the end of the tunnel and its awfully hard to turn back.
So keeping me in a year ago was simple.
Now it would have to be the prospect of earning the same inside in 5 years as I could be earning outside in 5 years.
Why don't any of the FRIs target 33 year olds just about to leave on a SSC?
33 Days to go.

[tinpis]

Would the RAF like Jo Brand and some fluffy squirrels?

[occhips]

Knowing that we still have a CAS and not needing to wonder if CGS has taken over the RAF... being able to get hold of my deskie and being able to sort out my career as opposed to having to wait until every leap year to find out what's going on.

Knowing that somebody will actually think before we embrace PAYD and stop telling us its what we want......

[rej]

My first post in a long time.

All that is keeping me in after 20 and a bit years is an option point in a few years time and the fact that a PVR would mean that 'they' would take about 5% (I think that is about right) of what I have already earned. Roll on my 44th birthday.

One of my biggest regrets - not going at my 41 option point. Oh well, you live and learn.

[Prat At The Back]

Chutley,

Its tossirs like you that give the hard workers the rough end of the stick. When a task comes in I'd rather ring the guys I can rely on to just get on with it than have to deal with whinging little naffs like you. So you got stiffed by your 1st RO; thats what your 2nd RO is for, I bet you didnt go and have a chat with the 2nd RO.

I hope the powers that be see you for what you are and post you somewhere hot and sandy for a good long time.

Prat, and bragging about it too. Fcuk me.

[Op_Twenty]

"Why don't any of the FRIs target 33 year olds just about to leave on a SSC?"

Bayette is right in my opinion, this is something that needs to be looked at closely. My 12 year option comes up in just under 3 years, I've worked out pension loss from early separation from the service versus potential salary increase from the airlines and the airlines certainly makes up for it. That coupled with the lack of interest in my career from the service when I'm over 40, I would be very badly placed for an airline job if I left after 16 years (I'll be 41). United Airlines recently refused to take aircrew applications from the over 40's (subsequently overruled in US courts - but the sentiment remains) Until the RAF realises that it needs to offer a substantial financial incentive to retain aircrew post the 12 year option it will continue to lose that experience and the effect this will have on the future of the service will be severe. It's the early to mid 30's guys they need to keep, look what happened to the harrier force when guys stepped - we'll soon see this through not just one force, but the entire service. Oh, that's what 'my friend' reckons by the way.

[Melchett01]

I think as well as all the BS associated with the civilianization of the RAF, management rather than leadership, budget managers and bean-counters seemingly influencing operational decision making etc, PMA or ACOS Manning taking its collective head out of its arse and treating people like human beings rather than assets to be used until they are of no use, would have a massive impact on retention across the service.

My TRD was over 9 months ago and despite my regular polite prodding of PMA to find out what was going on, have only just got anything concrete out of the deskie. When I first spoke to him 6 months ago (I was ignored totally for the first 3 months past TRD), I emphasised that I wanted a tour to get my life back on track, sort out family and home issues and would in all honesty probably be raring to go back out on ops after that.

What does he offer? Exactly the opposite of what I asked and another front line tour on ops, with most of next year out in parts sandy. Funnily enough, I now find myself thinking about leaving early - something I never ever thought I would be thinking of. But as has been pointed out, I am just a number - or a 'cover' to use PMA's terminology and the deskies really don't care a hoot about their charges. And I am not unique in being in this situation. You want people to stay, treat us like humans and realise that we have matters to consider other than your manning plot - like wives, partners, children, ageing parents, houses, education etc etc.

Seems these days you can sacrifice all of the above for the RAF, all it will do is take with both hands then come back for more. Unfortunately for the RAF (and probably the Army & RN), people are waking up to the fact that they will be discarded by the MoD at the end of their service with no regard to the sacrifices people have made and are taking things into their own hands. Funnily enough, I'd rather have the family. friends and house to fall back on rather than an small empty flat, a few photos and a few memories when I'm 55 divored and on the RAF's scrapheap with little to show for it. Sooner PMA realise that treating people like **** is doing them no good, the better. Then people may consider staying and making a full career out of the RAF. As it is, with the numbers of people leaving early or at option & exit points, assimilation or the prospect of promotion to senior ranks is hardly a resounding endorsement - it's just that every other bugger has left and stores have a load of uniforms they need to get off its shelves

[Op_Twenty]

I agree, you made some really strong points there. I was thinking about putting the notion about that maybe if we all pulled in the same direction we could stem the flow of people leaving, get people back into happy hour and functions, get the work ethic back, the drive, the pride and the sense that everyday you go to work you can make a difference, feel proud about what you're doing as a team, saying: 'Ok, the Airships are only out for themselves and are more political now than military but that's fine, I won't let that affect me, I'll still do a good job with the guys I have here.'
Unfortunately when I floated the idea in the crewroom most of the guys were just finishing their third 12 hour day that week with a couple more to go, there was general apathy and the 'look after yourself 'cos the service won't' notion was well and truly set. I don't know what the answer is, and oddly, neither do our bosses. The only difference being that I don't get paid to have the answer but they do. I'll fly my jet as I'm paid to and they'll just get paid I guess. 'Blue sky thinking' - 'heads in the clouds' more like (That's what my mate said apparently)

[Looker]

Couldn't afford to stay

I left the FAA 6 years ago for a number of reasons;

1. I could see that the MOD was a shrinking industry with lots of very bright and capable people scrambling for fewer and fewer good jobs/promotions.

2. 'Civilianisation' of the plumb shore appointments meant 'Front line first' became 'Front line every time' and this is unsustainable if married with children.

3. I joined to fly not to spend large amounts of time doing pathetic secondary duties - OIC ballet club -what the fcuk is that all about! Having done an exchange tour with the Crabs I can say they are even more anal about these things.

4. I stayed until the end of my 16 year commission in order to get the necessary CAA licenses and to get a full pension. The gratuity + savings made for a 50% deposit on a house and the pension covers the mortgage. Financially it just didn't make sense to stay.

5. I'm now a captain with a LOCO earning about the same as Captain RN.

6. Do I regret leaving? No

7. I can't think of a single thing that would have enduced me to stay a day beyond my 16. I can say financially and emotionally I'm in a better place than I would be if I'd stuck my head in the sand for another rogering by the incompetents at the Admiralty.

8. Lastly, I don't even miss my service mates. I see them in the LOCO crewroom most days!

Looker

[StopStart]

I'm with theprior...

with decent towels and shampoo etc.

decent shampoo would keep me in