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What would keep you in?

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What would keep you in?

Old 29th Aug 2007, 21:56
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Bristol
Posts: 190
I'm out, but what would have kept me in

No broken promises, i.e. kit/buildings to the standard they were promised to be and available. Posting promises honoured. If bases closed then not re-opened cause some * didn't like it the way before.
No more cut backs in Planes/Bases/Manpower. i.e. give us the necessary to do the full job not just a bit of it.
No reduction in training standards and time in postings back to what they were.
No ticket punching for promotion so the well rounded but bugga all use NCO/Officer was replaced by the v experienced/qualified person that we had years ago.
No JPA, warrants, allowances etc back to pre Bett days.
Military Hospitals back in.
Bosses who stuck up for the troops/unit rather than thinking of their own career. That includes *'s resigning on mass if needed rather than rolling over for political expediency.
Tax free status when deployed on Ops (including NI, FI etc).
Civilian equivalence for Mil job. Not the extra nause of having to do an NVQ but you're SL SENGO so here is a degree in engineering management, Sgt Avionics degree in Avionics.
Proper standard of housing/messes

Nice to have
Lump sum at 22/38 point
Decent housing loans for mortagage
You want to stay in for 5 years past 22/38 have an extra 1K a year.
American standard shopping/R&R facilities
Access to Mil hospitals post retirement to self and family

Cloud Nine, or just a dedicated member of the RAF pushed too far?
trap one is offline  
Old 29th Aug 2007, 22:47
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: A Gaelic Country
Posts: 0
I stay in ONLY due to being financially responsible for my family and for the cameraderie of my mates - or "battle buddies" if you will..

Last edited by covec; 31st Aug 2007 at 10:25.
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Old 29th Aug 2007, 23:18
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 397
Tablet,

Intrigued to read that your PVR was confirmed today? Is that standard? I completed the paperwork and told my poster ..... and nothing since. They have not even reduced my flying pay from High to Middle rate as I expected should happen; I guess JPA will catch up eventually.

Seldom,

I took a chance and signed on for the new pension scheme, hoping that I would get offered PAS this year. Unfortunately a fcuk up at Innsworth meant that my latest ACR went AWOL and was not available for the board. The RAF's loss is my gain.

Even if I had got PAS I would think twice about staying.

Y_G
Yeller_Gait is offline  
Old 30th Aug 2007, 09:08
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK, sometimes!
Age: 70
Posts: 436
Yellar,

I think you'll find that when your PVR does come through you will be financially worse off than you are expecting. You will not drop from top to middle rate FP, your top rate will be halved - i.e. you will be on less than the middle rate!

MadMark!!!
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 15:21
  #25 (permalink)  
wokkameister
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
How about not tasking us like its 1942, and then expecting us to adopt 'new civilian working practices'.
How about shelving all these eye catching/money saving (delete as applicable) initiatives, and let us get on with fighting all the bloody wars this government has started.
How about treating us like valued members of the community, and not a commodity or asset to be frittered away without the correct support infrastructure?
How about making some decisions in a time frame of less than a millenium, therefore leading to less speculation and uncertainty?
How about giving us the tools and support to do the job?
How about our leaders, military and government, leading by example, and not hiding behind spin and 'news management'?

Just a thought.

WM
 
Old 30th Aug 2007, 15:48
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 25,615
How about your leaders 'learning' a few lessons, rather than just 'identifying' them?

Might help....


...but not much. Implosion can only be a matter of time now.
BEagle is offline  
Old 30th Aug 2007, 16:35
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oxford
Posts: 97
Staying In

1. Pay increase for the junior ranks to bring them up to the same pay as a fireman/police cuntsable with decreasing but incremental pay rises through the chain of command reducing to 2.5% for the top rank.
2. Cancel Pay as You Dine
3. Bring back the old housing allowance where the service gave you a sum equivalent to the sum you have saved, up to ₤7000.
4. Give us 42 days leave/year back again, with the Service paying you back for every days leave you are unable to take
5. Make flying pay and other additional pay pensionable.
6. Kill anyone who uses the words "underpinning", "fidelity", "overarching", "granularity" and "best business practises".
7. Provide medical and dental facilities to all dependants including veterans; private if necessary.
8. Bring all accommodation up to acceptable standards. Now. Immediately. Even if that means allowing those in quarters to use the yellow pages.
9. Tax free allowances for those overseas.
10. Give Headley Court and other rehab facilities an open chequebook to deal with patients
SirPercyWare-Armitag is offline  
Old 30th Aug 2007, 16:44
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lincoln
Age: 29
Posts: 70
Im 16, and wanted to be a pilot all my life. Reading this, it doesn't seem to me that all good things are no more with regards to the RAF
dave_perry is offline  
Old 30th Aug 2007, 18:36
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Bristol
Posts: 190
Dave

There are good things, just at the moment we are not too happy and seem to want to list the improvements we want to make, would like to see.
But Mil flying is something that can never be bettered!
trap one is offline  
Old 30th Aug 2007, 19:15
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: deepest here
Posts: 42
Dave

Join the RAF and you will enjoy the best flying training in the world. You will meet fantastic people, make the best mates you will ever have, and experience things you never dreamed of. Then slowly, you will come to realise that you are in an organization that has no direction, and zero leadership. Air Officers only believe in what will get them promoted, and do not believe people on the front-line who tell them that everything is NOT rosy, but that there are MAJOR failings at every level. Dave, why do you think the RAF has a huge retention problem? Why are people leaving in droves for civvy street? The answer is that we are undervalued, under resourced, under equipped and under paid. JPA is an unmitigated disaster for those on ther front line (after 7 refused travel claims, I have told my boss I will sue the RAF in open court if detached again, and I mean it)

Is it worth it, compared to the monotony of a civvy flying job?

Never thought I'd say this, ever, but I'm starting to wonder if the answer is...no. it isn't.

Air Officer's patently don't care, CAS is too busy flying his new toy to care about front line rotary and multi guys, JPA is a loyalty killer, and the corporate mentality is the single most destructive attack ever launched on the RAF - and senior officers support it.

They should be ashamed - but they won't be, as long as their stats look good to the AOC.

Don't join Dave - any other advice wouyld be hypocritical.

PS. I have been in for 19 years, all as a pilot, have 5500hrs and know a little about what I'm talking about,
ethereal entity is offline  
Old 30th Aug 2007, 23:53
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: A Gaelic Country
Posts: 0
What AIDU says is correct in that it is the conundrum that we who still serve face. If you do not like it - leave. But the pay is (just) good enough to stay. As is the pension.

My mates who are on Short Service Commissions and those NCA who are on 12 years Service are actively doing OU or other qualifications eg ATPLs.
It is a life style choice.

Live n breathe the Armed Forces (with a good pension IF you do to age 55 - difficult if a Para!) or do the minimum amount of time - without being killed.
The (flying) job is glamorous but the reality can be "lethal".

Allegedly, a UK Chancellor said that every pound spent on defence is a pound wasted.

That is the current climate.

Last edited by covec; 1st Sep 2007 at 22:09.
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Old 31st Aug 2007, 01:36
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 383
Yeller,

I had to speak to someone in gen office, who then spoke to AIR Command to ask whether my PVR had been approved. Apparently it has, but JPA doesn't reflect the fact. A letter will be sent 'in due course' - God forbid anyone at AIR would ever want to send me a legal document as soon as it becomes valid!

Dave,

I won't say "don't join the RAF". For all my dissatisfaction, I've had superb training, had some great experiences, and made some of the best friends I've ever had. Everything you read in this thread is posted by people who are fed up after some time in the Service. Who knows; your experiences could be completely different to mine. All I'd say is this: if you want to join up, you're doing a selfless and honourable thing. Just don't go in without considering the fact that everything the AFCO tells you is told to get you in. It doesn't always turn out to be true. Whatever your decision is, best of luck.

AIDU,

I don't think that ethereal entity is on firm ground for suing the Service, but it's wholly unfair to call him spineless. Note that he never said he doesn't want to be deployed, just that he's utterly fed up with travel claims being refused. I don't think anyone can argue with that. We all know we have to do our duty wherever and whenever it's demanded of us, but if the Service isn't doing its duty by us, I think we have every right to be pi$$ed off.

As ACM Loader said, and as you're keen to repeat: If you don't like it, get out. Well, that sage advice is being taken by an increasingly large cohort of what should have been the Service's future senior officers. That's not healthy, and it's an issue that isn't being addressed adequately. When dissatisfaction - even disaffection - is this rife, it needs to be treated, because at the moment the Service's collective experience is very much at stake. Maybe you and Sir Clive should concentrate on treating the causes instead of berating the symptoms?
tablet_eraser is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2007, 09:55
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Among these dark Satanic mills
Posts: 1,179
How about not tasking us like its 1942, and then expecting us to adopt 'new civilian working practices'.
How about shelving all these eye catching/money saving (delete as applicable) initiatives, and let us get on with fighting all the bloody wars this government has started.
How about treating us like valued members of the community, and not a commodity or asset to be frittered away without the correct support infrastructure?
How about making some decisions in a time frame of less than a millenium, therefore leading to less speculation and uncertainty?
How about giving us the tools and support to do the job?
How about our leaders, military and government, leading by example, and not hiding behind spin and 'news management'?


I think that's more or less what I was trying to say in my earlier post but the right words, as so often these days, eluded me...
TorqueOfTheDevil is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2007, 10:47
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oxford
Age: 34
Posts: 143
Ok, so im sitting here reading all of this and in a similar position to Dave. Where I am seriously considering a future in the RAF, albeit I am slightly older.
We all know its human nature to complain when things are bad and rarely do people come forward to say when things are good. But this is a military aircrew forum and I haven't read a single bad post about flying with the Navy. Are they doing some right that the RAF could learn from? Is this maybe where I should be focusing my thoughts on if I want to have an exciting and rewarding flying career?

Thanks

Ghostie
Ghostie31 is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2007, 11:26
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Among these dark Satanic mills
Posts: 1,179
Ghostie,

I'll leave the Navy guys to answer your questions in detail, but I'll hazard a guess as to why you haven't seen Navy fliers complaining on here:

1. The FAA is a much smaller outfit than the RAF => fewer people overall means fewer people unhappy (even if the percentage of unhappy people is the same as or higher than the RAF) => fewer moans on here.

2. The Navy have always spent a lot of time away from home, whereas for the RAF this is a relatively new development (Desert Shield/Storm was the beginning of it, but the major increase in op tempo was only 6 years ago); being away from home is by no means the only gripe RAF people have, but when compounded by all the other issues which people face, it adds up. The Navy, by comparison, are more used to being away - and I would guess that being on a ship would cocoon people from a lot of the nuisance of military life (Stn Cdr's training days? JPA?)

3. Bear in mind that plenty of people (well, some!) in the RAF are quite content with their lot, but those people are reluctant to write posts going on about what a great life they have out of respect for those colleagues of ours who are getting the shitty end of the stick!

Notwithstanding the above, there may well be something that the Navy is doing right which the RAF could learn from - please tell us, o Senior Service stoics!
TorqueOfTheDevil is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2007, 11:56
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: between a rock and a hard place
Posts: 218
Hmmm I have always said if you want a flying career then you should join the RAF.

I said this right up until the point I joined the Navy as a pilot.

Throughout elementary training I didn't see much difference, then when I got streamed onto Helo's and RAF friends with the same scores got streamed Fast Jet I knew I had screwed up by joining the Navy!

Subsequently hated flying helo's, wasn't very good at it and am now flying a desk in Portsmouth Naval Base banging my head against a wall everyday and getting wound up with the service I belong to constantly looking for the next area it can save money in whilst creating some new monster initiative or name change for the 7th time in one year. Current Navy helo pals are bored for want of a better word.

I think all three services are being screwed left right and chelsea at the moment and all three have more beauracratic bullsheep then ever before. The "fun" just isn't there anymore.

I firmly believe that if you want to fly then try, try and try again the RAF you will end up just as disillusioned in the Navy and have more chance of being chopped (we have a tendancy to over recruit then realise we don't have enough airframes to send everyone too then chop perfectly competent people then over recruit again etc etc) You also have a much wider choice of airframe in the RAF then the Navy. I think you will find that most Navy pilots tried the RAF first too (although they will never admit it!!) so feel grateful to be flying anything!

Ok so the RAF uniform is a bit gay but well worth it if you end up in a Typhoon rather then a Sea King ASaC or worse a desk surrounded by ships. Urghhh ships.

Civvy street here I come! FlyBe next for me (at least I won't be surrounded by ships)

MFWF
mustflywillfly is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2007, 12:03
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wilts
Posts: 76
A bit gay ?....How very dare you
TonkaEngO is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2007, 12:09
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: firmly on dry land
Age: 77
Posts: 1,537
The Navy Fly?

If you look through other posts you will see a fair number of dark blue aviator moans too.

I was given some advice by a retired 36 year old sqn ldr when I had been in a couple of years - resign.

I was given the same advice when I joined my first operational station.

Things are in continual flux. What we like and tolerate today suddenly becomes too much tomorrow. The young starry-eyed and admiring girl friend becomes the more disenchanted wife when she remains at home. If she follows the flag she has to leave a job she might enjoy and go through endless new job interviews etc before finishing in a possibly lower paid job. The late Lord Gardener PVR'd because of his wife's job and the services expectations.

Join by all means. Don't expect too much. Certainly don't expect the system to look after you.
Wader2 is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2007, 13:40
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 306
I'm recently out, and not a lot would have kept me in after 22yrs. The system so far eroded as it is, left no choice. The question however to my mind, is 'Who is responsible?' I believe it is directly led by self peservation of those in a position to achieve their own aim. Belitle the little and damn the rest...The guys at Group level that suck ass above have a lot to answer for! But then they will succeed!
Winch-control is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2007, 14:21
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oxford
Age: 34
Posts: 143
Can somebody explain what PVR means?

Thanks
Ghostie31 is offline  

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