2007 Puma Crash, Enquiry and Inquest (Merged)
PTT,
I espouse nothing of the sort.
I believe that in the all-important delivery of military effect Benson is second to none, and I am saddened that the Station, its squadrons and its execs have been publicly criticised by people who do not have one quarter of the professionalism, dedication and ethos of service of the weakest serviceman.
But just because the appearance of Station and Gate Guard may have nothing whatever to do with the delivery of military effect does not make those things unimportant. And just as it may not be true that "if it looks good it must be good" it is equally not the case that "If it looks shabby it must be great", while public perceptions (however poorly informed) are of critical import.
I espouse nothing of the sort.
I believe that in the all-important delivery of military effect Benson is second to none, and I am saddened that the Station, its squadrons and its execs have been publicly criticised by people who do not have one quarter of the professionalism, dedication and ethos of service of the weakest serviceman.
But just because the appearance of Station and Gate Guard may have nothing whatever to do with the delivery of military effect does not make those things unimportant. And just as it may not be true that "if it looks good it must be good" it is equally not the case that "If it looks shabby it must be great", while public perceptions (however poorly informed) are of critical import.
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Jacko
Thanks for the clarification of your position. I agree that looks and ability are not correlated in any way.
I agree that public perception can be important, but would argue that it isn't as important as the press likes to make out because what they really mean by public perception is "what we print" - another thread perhaps!
However, assuming that public perception is important, and that they are poorly informed as you state, and that your job as a journalist is the informing of self-same public and assisting them in forming their perceptions, do you see (especially given your earlier posts comparing Benson and Odiham) where you may be to blame?
Thanks for the clarification of your position. I agree that looks and ability are not correlated in any way.
I agree that public perception can be important, but would argue that it isn't as important as the press likes to make out because what they really mean by public perception is "what we print" - another thread perhaps!
However, assuming that public perception is important, and that they are poorly informed as you state, and that your job as a journalist is the informing of self-same public and assisting them in forming their perceptions, do you see (especially given your earlier posts comparing Benson and Odiham) where you may be to blame?
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Airborne Aircrew and anyone else worried about hats!
Worried about hats? You'll no doubt be thinking a return to wearing suits in the mess after 6pm on mondays tuesdays and thursdays is overdue?
Worried about hats? You'll no doubt be thinking a return to wearing suits in the mess after 6pm on mondays tuesdays and thursdays is overdue?
There are those here that know me. They are acutely aware of my extreme distaste for many of the stupid "niceties" thrust upon me by intellectual midgets. However, there are moments in history when it's handy that everything is done "perfectly". I would suggest that an attempt at damage control by a man in charge of an airfield the first impression of which is that of a dump, (and I don't just take Jacko's word for this - it was the same last July when I drove by it to, (proudly
), show my wife where my ex-squadron now lives - my family lives just up the street in Abingdon), might have tried to do it "by the book".Not having been trained as a "Media Aware Steely Eyed Killer" I was unaware of the "dishonest and evasive" way you officers manage to look in... errr... Daylight...
Were the good gentleman, (and, apparently, specifically trained in "meeja management), he might have had the wherewithal to arrive properly dressed, introduced himself as Benson's "great leader" and then, to appear more approachable, honest and straightforward casually removed said headgear to have a nice comfy chat with the punters. Two birds, one stone so to speak... Would that have been so difficult? I think not.
Your sniping only demonstrates your shortcomings...
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Well, it seems that the current CGS doesn't have much problem addressing the media without headgear whilst outside......
or indeed his predecessor
Sometimes there are more important things to worry about like getting back to the original thread.
or indeed his predecessor
Sometimes there are more important things to worry about like getting back to the original thread.
A bit confused....................
I may be talking from ignorance and about to put the cat amongst the pigeons, but here goes.
Consider the following, and there is a point to this:
Two young Police Constables are on night duty in a police car. A swift machine with blue lights, sirens etc. The night's action has quietened down so it's time to see how fast the motor will go.
Whilst the police car is travelling at a rate of knots, a car pulls out of a nearside junction just giving the driver time to react and avoid a collision. This incident was 24 years ago, but the passenger can still recall it in vivid detail.
A seconds difference may well have resulted in a high speed crash, death, injury and a prison sentence if the driver had survived the impact.
The chances of the above situation occurring, and at the crucial moment catastrophic mechanical failure putting in an appearence are / were minute.
Leap forward some 20 odd years and there is a Puma charging over the countryside, at speed obviously. As in 1985, you have a young man in charge of a powerful machine, one on the ground, one in the air and we have Human Nature. Sometimes the envelope is pushed.
There have been many incidents since and they will continue to occur, no doubt.
The majority of you reading will have worked out where I fit in with this story. I am not a military aviator, but I am the son of one so have heard the stories, bravado aside.
It is tragic when an aviator 'goes in' as they / you are like me, have family, enjoy a beer, enjoy a game of rugby etc, but we are talking of human beings here.
I am not sighted on the result of the BOI, but maybe somebody just made a mistake. The state of Gate Guardians or a Group Captain not wearing a hat is completely and totally irrelevant.
Whether you are a young Police Constable or a Flt Lt, S*#t Happens.
You must understand I have the upmost respect for military aviators of all services, but you are humans, not robots.
Kindest Regards.
tarantonight.
Consider the following, and there is a point to this:
Two young Police Constables are on night duty in a police car. A swift machine with blue lights, sirens etc. The night's action has quietened down so it's time to see how fast the motor will go.
Whilst the police car is travelling at a rate of knots, a car pulls out of a nearside junction just giving the driver time to react and avoid a collision. This incident was 24 years ago, but the passenger can still recall it in vivid detail.
A seconds difference may well have resulted in a high speed crash, death, injury and a prison sentence if the driver had survived the impact.
The chances of the above situation occurring, and at the crucial moment catastrophic mechanical failure putting in an appearence are / were minute.
Leap forward some 20 odd years and there is a Puma charging over the countryside, at speed obviously. As in 1985, you have a young man in charge of a powerful machine, one on the ground, one in the air and we have Human Nature. Sometimes the envelope is pushed.
There have been many incidents since and they will continue to occur, no doubt.
The majority of you reading will have worked out where I fit in with this story. I am not a military aviator, but I am the son of one so have heard the stories, bravado aside.
It is tragic when an aviator 'goes in' as they / you are like me, have family, enjoy a beer, enjoy a game of rugby etc, but we are talking of human beings here.
I am not sighted on the result of the BOI, but maybe somebody just made a mistake. The state of Gate Guardians or a Group Captain not wearing a hat is completely and totally irrelevant.
Whether you are a young Police Constable or a Flt Lt, S*#t Happens.
You must understand I have the upmost respect for military aviators of all services, but you are humans, not robots.
Kindest Regards.
tarantonight.
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I'm sorry... Apparently the simple suggestion of mere standards when dealing with "outsiders" leaves the Air Force of today dumbfounded and unable to function.
Do the RAF no longer dress by the right or do we just line up like a bunch of conscript Yanks? Do the RAF shamble around in an undisciplined mess because it's just all too tiring to maintain some semblance of standards while carrying out our duties?
Gentlemen, and I'm using that term loosely with regard to those who seem to think it's fun to argue with me, you are the problem. You believe that, because things are a little difficult for you personally, it's ok to set aside some things that are basic to military life. I really don't care about how hard you think your tasking is now. You, as Aircrew, have never really had it hard. Really... Aircrew life is nothing compared to the life of the men on the ground. The pilots sit on their rears all day and the crew can sit for much of the time. Yes, you "think" more than your average grunt. But as far a "work done" is concerned I'm afraid you don't even start to compare to what the men on the ground do.
So, to get back on topic... The audio clearly demonstrates a crew that was undisciplined and unprofessional. I'm saddened that they lost their lives but I cannot "give them a break". The question is "how did they become so 'out of sorts'"? As long as you argue for those that allowed those "little" aberrations you argue for a form of anarchy, one that accepts anything as long as nothing goes awry.
Do the RAF no longer dress by the right or do we just line up like a bunch of conscript Yanks? Do the RAF shamble around in an undisciplined mess because it's just all too tiring to maintain some semblance of standards while carrying out our duties?
Gentlemen, and I'm using that term loosely with regard to those who seem to think it's fun to argue with me, you are the problem. You believe that, because things are a little difficult for you personally, it's ok to set aside some things that are basic to military life. I really don't care about how hard you think your tasking is now. You, as Aircrew, have never really had it hard. Really... Aircrew life is nothing compared to the life of the men on the ground. The pilots sit on their rears all day and the crew can sit for much of the time. Yes, you "think" more than your average grunt. But as far a "work done" is concerned I'm afraid you don't even start to compare to what the men on the ground do.
So, to get back on topic... The audio clearly demonstrates a crew that was undisciplined and unprofessional. I'm saddened that they lost their lives but I cannot "give them a break". The question is "how did they become so 'out of sorts'"? As long as you argue for those that allowed those "little" aberrations you argue for a form of anarchy, one that accepts anything as long as nothing goes awry.
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AA - Norman Dixon's "On the Psychology of Military Incomeptence". Chapter 8 (if I recall correctly) entitled "Bull****". Read it.
What is basic to military life is fighting and, ideally, winning wars. Pomp, ceremony, shiny boots and painted gate guards do not in any way assist this, and Mr Dixon explains very well why some people see those things as more important than what actually is important, and why such thinking loses lives and wars.
I'm terribly sorry you were ashamed of the state of Benson when you took your family along to see your old squadron. Maybe you could pop along and spruce it up a bit?
Reference your plan for the Stn Cdr at Benson to turn up in the manner you described, I have two words: sound bite. He got a small slot on TV and there is no way that the actions you suggest would come across correctly after editting. Were they paper journos then it might work, but not for TV.
On topic: I shall forego judgement on the actions of the crew until after the BOI.
What is basic to military life is fighting and, ideally, winning wars. Pomp, ceremony, shiny boots and painted gate guards do not in any way assist this, and Mr Dixon explains very well why some people see those things as more important than what actually is important, and why such thinking loses lives and wars.
I'm terribly sorry you were ashamed of the state of Benson when you took your family along to see your old squadron. Maybe you could pop along and spruce it up a bit?
Reference your plan for the Stn Cdr at Benson to turn up in the manner you described, I have two words: sound bite. He got a small slot on TV and there is no way that the actions you suggest would come across correctly after editting. Were they paper journos then it might work, but not for TV.
On topic: I shall forego judgement on the actions of the crew until after the BOI.
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AA,
The problem you have is having, with every one watching, driven into a written cul de sac you are now stuck for a face saving way out.
I sat and watched your posts to date wondering where it was all going but your last post quite clearly shows your inability to put your hands up and say, sorry guys I got it wrong.
"The audio clearly demonstrates a crew that was undisciplined and unprofessional. I'm saddened that they lost their lives but I cannot "give them a break"
You are ex SH and ex Puma's and if you want to tell all of us here that at no time in all of your rotary flying time you never once asked for a "bunt for the troops sir" then I will nail my knob to the floor, please think long and hard about your riposte as there are lots of SH folk reading this thread
As regards the "no hat" situation even a Luddite like me with 35 years of service done, more to come and I don't even know the guy, fully understands that prior to him going before the camera to read his written statement some "PR" type would have said "best without the hat today sir"
3 guys died and some of you feckers are wittering on about hats and litter, how very very sad
The problem you have is having, with every one watching, driven into a written cul de sac you are now stuck for a face saving way out.
I sat and watched your posts to date wondering where it was all going but your last post quite clearly shows your inability to put your hands up and say, sorry guys I got it wrong.
"The audio clearly demonstrates a crew that was undisciplined and unprofessional. I'm saddened that they lost their lives but I cannot "give them a break"
You are ex SH and ex Puma's and if you want to tell all of us here that at no time in all of your rotary flying time you never once asked for a "bunt for the troops sir" then I will nail my knob to the floor, please think long and hard about your riposte as there are lots of SH folk reading this thread
As regards the "no hat" situation even a Luddite like me with 35 years of service done, more to come and I don't even know the guy, fully understands that prior to him going before the camera to read his written statement some "PR" type would have said "best without the hat today sir"
3 guys died and some of you feckers are wittering on about hats and litter, how very very sad
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Whether or not Gp Capt Burt wore his hat when making his statement is of much more importance to (some) mil posters here than to the public - most of whom would neither know the correct protocol nor care. Surely what matters (in this context) is the impression he gave to the public.
IMHO, as a member of the public, he had a difficult task, did it well and gave a good impression.
In contrast, some of the comments posted here (on a forum open to and read by the public) both about the young pilot who died and about the RAF have been more damaging to the image of the RAF than the fact the Gp Capt didn't wear his hat if/when he should have.
airborne aircrew
You accused another poster of looking a little childish and throwing his teddy out of his pram when he responded forcefully to silly criticism of someone he knows to be a good man. IMHO as an "outsider" with no axe to grind, he's not the one who's looking childish here.
IMHO, as a member of the public, he had a difficult task, did it well and gave a good impression.
In contrast, some of the comments posted here (on a forum open to and read by the public) both about the young pilot who died and about the RAF have been more damaging to the image of the RAF than the fact the Gp Capt didn't wear his hat if/when he should have.
airborne aircrew
You accused another poster of looking a little childish and throwing his teddy out of his pram when he responded forcefully to silly criticism of someone he knows to be a good man. IMHO as an "outsider" with no axe to grind, he's not the one who's looking childish here.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 29th Oct 2009 at 00:24.
PTT,
Again.
It does not need to be either/or.
It is perfectly possible to prioritise the delivery of effect, but also to ensure that the basic admin triv is done to a good enough standard, as plenty of stations do.
I'm with you as to the matter of the good Group Captain's hat. The public don't know and wouldn't care, and leaving it on might have been worse. And he gave a good account of himself and looked smart and presentable.
Which is all I'm asking of his Station.
Again.
It does not need to be either/or.
It is perfectly possible to prioritise the delivery of effect, but also to ensure that the basic admin triv is done to a good enough standard, as plenty of stations do.
I'm with you as to the matter of the good Group Captain's hat. The public don't know and wouldn't care, and leaving it on might have been worse. And he gave a good account of himself and looked smart and presentable.
Which is all I'm asking of his Station.
Confused Again.
Have any of you well educated, highly trained lot read my post. You seem more concerned about the reputation of the RAF and aircrew than anything else.
You can rant all day long. I was trying to be as subtle as I could, but the issue we have here is 'boys with toys'. It is nothing short of a tragedy the pilot lost his life - and I genuinely mean that to negate any attacks that come my way - but the footage and audio in the public domain speaks volumes.
An earlier post mentions the pilot tearing around an air station at speed in his sports car and not listening to advice given. Prophetic maybe.
Again, I may be opening myself up to criticism, but you boys live in a world that when it goes wrong, it can go wrong big time.
You can rant all day long. I was trying to be as subtle as I could, but the issue we have here is 'boys with toys'. It is nothing short of a tragedy the pilot lost his life - and I genuinely mean that to negate any attacks that come my way - but the footage and audio in the public domain speaks volumes.
An earlier post mentions the pilot tearing around an air station at speed in his sports car and not listening to advice given. Prophetic maybe.
Again, I may be opening myself up to criticism, but you boys live in a world that when it goes wrong, it can go wrong big time.
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You are ex SH and ex Puma's and if you want to tell all of us here that at no time in all of your rotary flying time you never once asked for a "bunt for the troops sir" then I will nail my knob to the floor, please think long and hard about your riposte as there are lots of SH folk reading this thread
We butt heads regularly, and surprisingly have agreed on some few occasions... I can - with all those other SH folk reading - say I have never asked for anything, (unless Harry the B is reading this and it was a pre-flight request to fly a certain route in a certain way - which he did with skill, style and panache... Thank you Harry...
). My captains flew their "tasks"... They flew them well... They flew how they wanted to fly and they flew with my acceptance. (Let's not allow me to try to make myself out as some kind of angel because everyone who knows me knows that isn't true). But, and it's an important "but", there were times that I "asked" for the "fun" to be racked back and I will freely admit that my pilots respected my wishes, (details are details and don't need to be gone over). I have been scared by pilots, (the same ones that respected my wishes), and I have flown with pilots that can "put it to the dirt", (for a better way of putting it), that I have loved to fly with - right down to one pilot doing the "Western Highway Shuffle" who told me "You have the left" referring to the instructions he needed to keep the disk from hitting the trees on the left side as he made the lowest pass he could along the entire highway, (you'll understand I'm sure). But all those "antics" were done "professionally". As a crew we did the "dirty deeds" in a calm manner with both of us knowing and understanding the risks of what we were doing. There was no "Top Gun Yeehawing" and such... Just a pair of men, (sorry ladies - there were none in the SH force back then), exploring their limits and in every case we deferred to the side of safety because, let's be quite honest, none of us were trying to die. The only deaths I saw back then were caused by things that are better addressed in the "Chinook - Still hitting back" thread and, again, those who actually know me will understand why I take such a keen interest in that thread. I believe that the crew in this case were far from the type of crew I knew and really wouldn't have lasted but a few trips way back then before being reigned in by the Auths etc.As to the way OC Benson came on... I'm in the USA, (20 years now)... I didn't see him as some people wrongly assume without looking 1 inch to the left to see where I'm "from" and I freely retracted my comment when presented with a reasoned argument rather than a frenzied defense of a friend that used the word "livid".
I have no reason to try to "save face". I have my opinion and, like arseholes, everyone has one. The people here can bleat all they like about my thoughts on "standards"... For the most part they merely demonstrate my point...
I believe we started flying at much the same time - I just "banged out" earlier... Can you honestly say that, back in the early 80's. (or since), you have ever flown any task where the intercom sounded like the published excerpts did in this case?
Over to you...
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AA
"The audio clearly demonstrates a crew that was undisciplined and unprofessional. I'm saddened that they lost their lives but I cannot "give them a break"
"As a crew we did the "dirty deeds" in a calm manner with both of us knowing and understanding the risks of what we were doing. There was no "Top Gun Yeehawing" and such... Just a pair of men, (sorry ladies - there were none in the SH force back then), exploring their limits and in every case we deferred to the side of safety because, let's be quite honest, none of us were trying to die."
Two scenarios, neither authorised and both totally and utterly unprofessional. In one 3 folk tragically die in the other 2 folk live to transgress another day and another day and another day and eventually live to tell the tale................
Over to you
"The audio clearly demonstrates a crew that was undisciplined and unprofessional. I'm saddened that they lost their lives but I cannot "give them a break"
"As a crew we did the "dirty deeds" in a calm manner with both of us knowing and understanding the risks of what we were doing. There was no "Top Gun Yeehawing" and such... Just a pair of men, (sorry ladies - there were none in the SH force back then), exploring their limits and in every case we deferred to the side of safety because, let's be quite honest, none of us were trying to die."
Two scenarios, neither authorised and both totally and utterly unprofessional. In one 3 folk tragically die in the other 2 folk live to transgress another day and another day and another day and eventually live to tell the tale................
Over to you
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There may well be individuals with a troubled conscience delighted that this thread has suffered a bull**** runaway up. Most professional aviators would look here to seek answers to a surreal and very sad accident in which people died aboard what appears to have been a 100% serviceable aeroplane.
Military standards and ethos do seem to have descended to a point that is legally negligent, but this did not happen overnight, and the individuals that fed the decline may well have long gone from the Puma fleet yet read these words. Reasons or explanations have been covered in depth already and it appears that the system is taking it on the chin, along with Nimrod & Tutor outcomes which sadly hit the headlines at the same time.
Bickering over media presentation and litter is a tangent that will rapidly make this thread one worth avoiding, and that would mean that comments worth reading would be missed. Please gents can we set aside the crap and get back to the point.
As an aside, my thoughts are taken to the actions of the Army in Ireland (Eire) post WW1, where soldiers whose childhood was robbed by the barbaric scenes of the Somme were subsequently deployed (post WW1) to provide 'peace keeping' in Eire. The excuses given by history for their inexcusable treatment of civpop was that a bloodied soldier only knows violence and that the violence repeated in a civil environment was understandable if not acceptable. Why do I say this? .....because if this element of history is normal then surely we run the risk of conflict experienced ["immortal"] personnel behaving outside the boundaries of acceptable behaviour in all military services in the 21st century. I am sure a weeks post-op holiday in Cyprus will not stop a bar brawl in Aldershot by a highly stressed Para.
My experience on the Puma force involved a lot of fun flying, and don't worry 'Seldom' you wont be needing a hammer & nails from me! However the crew conversation always included a briefing and on only one occasion (in 3 tours) was I not confident of having an escape route. That was my first experience of the Eastern Branch, and those that have will know what I mean. I have seen people who should know better push the boundaries (QHI completing an IF recovery with embedded CBs to get to NI from Scotland) but I hasten to add that my Captain did not and waited the few hours for a clearance. I think the the PQ's of the crew probably paid a significant part of this accident and wonder who could, and should of, broke the chain.
Military standards and ethos do seem to have descended to a point that is legally negligent, but this did not happen overnight, and the individuals that fed the decline may well have long gone from the Puma fleet yet read these words. Reasons or explanations have been covered in depth already and it appears that the system is taking it on the chin, along with Nimrod & Tutor outcomes which sadly hit the headlines at the same time.
Bickering over media presentation and litter is a tangent that will rapidly make this thread one worth avoiding, and that would mean that comments worth reading would be missed. Please gents can we set aside the crap and get back to the point.
As an aside, my thoughts are taken to the actions of the Army in Ireland (Eire) post WW1, where soldiers whose childhood was robbed by the barbaric scenes of the Somme were subsequently deployed (post WW1) to provide 'peace keeping' in Eire. The excuses given by history for their inexcusable treatment of civpop was that a bloodied soldier only knows violence and that the violence repeated in a civil environment was understandable if not acceptable. Why do I say this? .....because if this element of history is normal then surely we run the risk of conflict experienced ["immortal"] personnel behaving outside the boundaries of acceptable behaviour in all military services in the 21st century. I am sure a weeks post-op holiday in Cyprus will not stop a bar brawl in Aldershot by a highly stressed Para.
My experience on the Puma force involved a lot of fun flying, and don't worry 'Seldom' you wont be needing a hammer & nails from me! However the crew conversation always included a briefing and on only one occasion (in 3 tours) was I not confident of having an escape route. That was my first experience of the Eastern Branch, and those that have will know what I mean. I have seen people who should know better push the boundaries (QHI completing an IF recovery with embedded CBs to get to NI from Scotland) but I hasten to add that my Captain did not and waited the few hours for a clearance. I think the the PQ's of the crew probably paid a significant part of this accident and wonder who could, and should of, broke the chain.
AA
I am sure the young man in the back on this flight was just the same as you, only he hadn't got to the point of asking for the fun to be racked back.
Now here is where you have your head in a bucket AA
Now a reality check for all those 'old and/or bold SH guys' who have laid in to the crew on this tragic sortie. I bet a pound to a pinch of rocking horse sh*t that you have done similar at some time. I cringed when I first heard the CVR on TV, not because of what was said by this crew, but because I have heard similar many times before but luckily when CVRs were not in the aircraft. The crew pushed it to the point that lady luck stopped smiling, and when you screw up at that height then it is going to end in tears (remember that AA when you recall your trips down the Western Highway to your mates over a BBQ). If your hair is not white AA then it would be if you watched what these young guys have had to do on Ops in Afghan and Iraq.
Seldom will also receive no hammer and nails from me. The number of times the crewman down the back had said to me 'Sir just got a note from the grunts that says 'bet you can't make us sick'! The thing is I KNOW it was the same for you AA.
What do we learn from all this? Feel sadness for the crew, passengers and families, learn why it happened and avoid it happening again where possible. And on reflection AA perhaps instead of remembering yourself as the consummate professional in the past, you will re-assess and realise that you exhibited similar behaviours, you were just luckier, and before you slag the crew off, think about where you are in 'the chain' in terms of responsibility for this accident. You bear some responsibility for this AA, as do all of us in the SH force. Every instance of flying indicipline over the years that has led to the 'pull up a sandbag, swing the lantern' stories of "hee hee when I did the western highway/eastern branch blah blah etc etc' has been passed down the line like a genetic handover from father to child, and this time it went wrong. So just think if all those years ago, when the Pilot going down the Western Highway said 'you have the left', had you told him, 'sod off sir, pull up to minimum authorised height and MSD and do not put my life in jeapordy', and had I done the same, along with countless other crews, then maybe this tragedy would not have occurred. But you analyse this accident as a crotchety old man, and forget what you did as a young man, which on occasion was the same as these lads. I think if many of us look back on our SH flying career, one thought that comes to mind is 'There but for the grace of God go I"
Now stop bleating on about your standards AA, because your post above displays that you didn't have as many as you might think.
But, and it's an important "but", there were times that I "asked" for the "fun" to be racked back
Now here is where you have your head in a bucket AA
and I have flown with pilots that can "put it to the dirt", (for a better way of putting it) So you were actually on occasion doing exactly the same as this crew! Only problem was that whilst this guy could 'put it in the dirt' he came unstuck on one occasion and it cost dearly, you were lucky., that I have loved to fly with - right down to one pilot doing the "Western Highway Shuffle" who told me "You have the left" referring to the instructions he needed to keep the disk from hitting the trees on the left side as he made the lowest pass he could along the entire highway, (you'll understand I'm sure) and you allowed him to do without telling him to knock it off? Do you know just how bad this makes you sound AA . But all those "antics" were done "professionally" Utter S**t, Bolleux and wa*k.
There was no "Top Gun Yeehawing" now you are losing your memory as well AA! I do not believe for one minute that you flew down the western highway, a few feet from trees either side without either of you "yahooing or yeehaing'. I have done the Western Highway, and in company with me, anyone else here that has done it will know 100% that you are lying. I guess you think you did the Eastern Branch without yahooing as well don't you.? and such... Just a pair of men, (sorry ladies - there were none in the SH force back then), exploring their limits and in every case we deferred to the side of safety What, with you having to clear the left whilst doing 140Kts down the Western Highway? Wake up! Had the pilot had to instinctively move left to avoid hitting a large bird on the nose, the two of you and anyone else down the back would have been food for jungle worms! because, let's be quite honest, none of us were trying to die Neither were the crew of the aircraft on this thread
I believe that the crew in this case were far from the type of crew I knew Nope! Just the same AA, only they had more operational experience than you.
Can you honestly say that, back in the early 80's. (or since),you have ever flown any task where the intercom sounded like the published excerpts did in this case? yes, but thankfully there were no CVRs and the quotes were from different movies (Monty Python, The Young Ones, CaddyShack etc etc)
Seldom will also receive no hammer and nails from me. The number of times the crewman down the back had said to me 'Sir just got a note from the grunts that says 'bet you can't make us sick'! The thing is I KNOW it was the same for you AA.
What do we learn from all this? Feel sadness for the crew, passengers and families, learn why it happened and avoid it happening again where possible. And on reflection AA perhaps instead of remembering yourself as the consummate professional in the past, you will re-assess and realise that you exhibited similar behaviours, you were just luckier, and before you slag the crew off, think about where you are in 'the chain' in terms of responsibility for this accident. You bear some responsibility for this AA, as do all of us in the SH force. Every instance of flying indicipline over the years that has led to the 'pull up a sandbag, swing the lantern' stories of "hee hee when I did the western highway/eastern branch blah blah etc etc' has been passed down the line like a genetic handover from father to child, and this time it went wrong. So just think if all those years ago, when the Pilot going down the Western Highway said 'you have the left', had you told him, 'sod off sir, pull up to minimum authorised height and MSD and do not put my life in jeapordy', and had I done the same, along with countless other crews, then maybe this tragedy would not have occurred. But you analyse this accident as a crotchety old man, and forget what you did as a young man, which on occasion was the same as these lads. I think if many of us look back on our SH flying career, one thought that comes to mind is 'There but for the grace of God go I"
Now stop bleating on about your standards AA, because your post above displays that you didn't have as many as you might think.
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Agreed, some were more daring than others, but I think most military pilots have had moments when they did not need to be as 'aggressive' on the controls as they actually were. Unfortunately you can't escape the fact that he went too far this time and paid the ultimate price.
Supervision is difficult when you are not operating from a fixed airfield site. You have to trust people, however the lack of experienced bods on squadrons often means that crews are given responsibility much earlier. What can an exec do? It is impossible to 'magic' old sweats out of thin air and tasks do not go away. Imagine telling Gordon that we can't deploy on ops because of experience shortages!!!!! Yeah, that would work...........
Supervision is difficult when you are not operating from a fixed airfield site. You have to trust people, however the lack of experienced bods on squadrons often means that crews are given responsibility much earlier. What can an exec do? It is impossible to 'magic' old sweats out of thin air and tasks do not go away. Imagine telling Gordon that we can't deploy on ops because of experience shortages!!!!! Yeah, that would work...........
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For once I agree wholeheartedly with SFFP.
Quote: "After all surely a whole crew would not have condoned this sort of thing if it was not something plenty of others did." Unquote
Subsequent posts seem to confirm that "plenty of others did".
Perhaps the SH Force needs a period of introspection?
Quote: "After all surely a whole crew would not have condoned this sort of thing if it was not something plenty of others did." Unquote
Subsequent posts seem to confirm that "plenty of others did".
Perhaps the SH Force needs a period of introspection?
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Just the SH Force??? Or does 'the' Cranwell Graduation? the Falklands videos of FJs? the Herc at South Cerney? or is it just easy to slag the SH force?