2007 Puma Crash, Enquiry and Inquest (Merged)
Mick Strigg:
Well, I haven't gone that far as you well know, but AI is like justice, it should not only be done but be seen to be done. How else can we have confidence in it? Let us return to my airline analogy. If all scrutiny were only on the subject accident fleet, then the possibility that it received less in the way of the airline's resources and priorities than other more favoured and prestigious fleets might never come to light. Thus the AAIB and the CAA set out to see the wood for the trees. How was this done here? It is not the business of the BoI whether Group, let alone Command, let alone the RAF, has a policy of gentle decline for an elderly fleet. I am not saying this was the case here, what I am saying is that the overall status of the Puma fleet is the responsibility of much bigger fish than the Benson Execs. Presumably if they had lived the Mull pilots would have faced Courts Martial charged with the Gross Negligence found by the Reviewing Officers. We now know that decisions made in the MOD's corridors long before their fatal flight condemned them with a very seriously unairworthy aircraft. The BoI did not "discover" that, it scarcely looked! Why should we have confidence in any other RAF Accident Investigation?
And I didn't say that either, as you well know. Of the people and institutions that you list, the only one that does AI is the RNFSAIC. The trouble is they don't do RAF Investigations, merely advise them. Even if they did we come back to the well trodden ground of Terms of Reference and Independence. Theoretically they would have complete freedom in both but Mull has proved that in practise they have it in neither. The police don't do AI they investigate possible breeches of the Law, same with the RAF police and Military Law. The Coroner's don't do AI, but in carrying out their duties to investigate untoward death they take evidence from those who can cast light on Aircraft Accidents. Light that in many cases has not been seen by that BoI.
So, you say that this accident was not properly investigated!
Furthermore, I'm sure that the Police, RNFSAIC, Coroner and RAF Police are thrilled to learn that, in your opinion, they are not "professional"!
Last edited by Chugalug2; 28th Oct 2009 at 13:59.
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Don't know about carelessness, but it speaks of an overstretched, broke and possibly broken organisation.
Sadly, there is little one can do to prevent an idiot from exceeding the brief if they are minded so to do without thought for the potential consequences.
I agree about the tatty state of some military establishments, Benson being a classic case. The gate guard is an utter disgrace, it is true. But when I went to Aldershot to do attend a resettlement brief in 2003, I expected it to be all Pongo spit and polish - however, it too was very shabby. Even little Topcliffe used to look better kept 12 years earlier. Yes, appearance DOES matter.
I guess that the Gp Capt with no hat and five o' clock shadow hadn't done the 'meeja' course - or had perhaps forgotten its guidance?
As for Melanie Reid's observations about the current state of the UAS world, I am hardly surprised, given the appalling dumbing-down of the once superb UAS system which occurred a few years ago.....
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If someone doesn't wear their hat they must cut corners in supervision??
Are you for real?? Get a life, really, get a life.......
Are you for real?? Get a life, really, get a life.......
......... whereas Odiham looks smart and well cared for. Despite no less of an operational tempo.
I doubt that Andy Turner (or his SWO!) would stand for an obviously broken gate guard or litter strewn public verges on his station.
Just sayin'.
I doubt that Andy Turner (or his SWO!) would stand for an obviously broken gate guard or litter strewn public verges on his station.
Just sayin'.
VSF
No, it wasn't on his watch.
Airborne Aircrew
You have lost it mate, and so has everybody else bleeting on about the 'Hat'. For Gods sake get things in perspective. I bet you didn't listen to a word he said but were just bitching and moaning about him standing there without his hat on. There have been numerous statements on the news recently by many of the boys in Green, from Major to General, and none of them were wearing their hat.
As for questioning Gp Capt Burr's Leadership and professionalism over him not wearing his hat, all I can say is you are so far off the plot, and frankly have made me frigging livid! I have known this guy for nearly 20 years, both as a fellow pilot and friend. He did more as a Junior Officer in terms of 'jobs done' than most pilots or you would see in a lifetime. His men like him, he leads by example and I doubt anybody of any worth gives a toss whether he was wearing a hat or not. Now how about you get back to the point of the thread!
Rant Off!
Jacko
As you said, they are 'public verges', get round the back of Odiham to the public verges, the litter is there.
No, it wasn't on his watch.
Airborne Aircrew
You have lost it mate, and so has everybody else bleeting on about the 'Hat'. For Gods sake get things in perspective. I bet you didn't listen to a word he said but were just bitching and moaning about him standing there without his hat on. There have been numerous statements on the news recently by many of the boys in Green, from Major to General, and none of them were wearing their hat.
As for questioning Gp Capt Burr's Leadership and professionalism over him not wearing his hat, all I can say is you are so far off the plot, and frankly have made me frigging livid! I have known this guy for nearly 20 years, both as a fellow pilot and friend. He did more as a Junior Officer in terms of 'jobs done' than most pilots or you would see in a lifetime. His men like him, he leads by example and I doubt anybody of any worth gives a toss whether he was wearing a hat or not. Now how about you get back to the point of the thread!
Rant Off!
Jacko
As you said, they are 'public verges', get round the back of Odiham to the public verges, the litter is there.
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If someone doesn't wear their hat they must cut corners in supervision??
Are you for real?? Get a life, really, get a life.......
Are you for real?? Get a life, really, get a life.......
When you consider PlasticCabDriver's comments:-
Sounds very similar to 33 Sqn at the end of 07 and the beginning of 08. Both the Dixon team and the JHC team went through the Sqn with a finer-than-fine tooth comb. Morale was terrible, in a Sqn that was just trying to keep its head above water to maintain the enormous op commitment that was imposed on it. Much of the coroners comments on adminstration and sloppiness would have come from those reports, which pulled few punches in that respect. It is over 2 years now since this accident, the Sqn Cdr has changed twice since then, and all the 4 Flt Cdrs. If there were any management failings in the Sqn execs then, they haved moved on. Further browbeating of 33 now would be unfair on the current crop of execs who had no part in it.
I have a life, thank you... A very nice one at that... How's yours...
I have known this guy for nearly 20 years
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If there was a Titanic thread on Pprune there would be a vigorous argument about the colour of the deckchairs by comment 6.
For what its worth, the same media course that I am sure that both Stn Cdr Benson and I attended gives the advice that "SD hats can, in strong natural or artificial light conditions, cause shading over the eyes causing the wearer to appear dishonest and evasive". I doubt for one minute that he forgot to pick up his hat, but rather chose not to. The decision might not have pleased everybody but a case of "hung if you do..........."
In any case, I know the man (not well or for long) and he is one of the obviously good guys. At the very least, give him the courtesy of not impugning his professional integrity (by name) armed with half of the facts when he is too busy or couteous to stand up for himself. Not meant as a rant, but peole lost their lives and I, as a member of the Service, feel very badly about it and hope that the actual causes come out rather than any distractions.
For what its worth, the same media course that I am sure that both Stn Cdr Benson and I attended gives the advice that "SD hats can, in strong natural or artificial light conditions, cause shading over the eyes causing the wearer to appear dishonest and evasive". I doubt for one minute that he forgot to pick up his hat, but rather chose not to. The decision might not have pleased everybody but a case of "hung if you do..........."
In any case, I know the man (not well or for long) and he is one of the obviously good guys. At the very least, give him the courtesy of not impugning his professional integrity (by name) armed with half of the facts when he is too busy or couteous to stand up for himself. Not meant as a rant, but peole lost their lives and I, as a member of the Service, feel very badly about it and hope that the actual causes come out rather than any distractions.
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London Eye
If there was a Titanic thread on this forum the I would be asking about the collision between her sister Ship RMS Olympic and HMS Hawke in Southampton Water some 6 months before RMS Titanic sailed on its Maiden voyage.
This would be particularly relevant because the Courts of Admiralty (nothing to do with the Royal Navy) had found the Captain of the Olympic negligent in his handling of the Olympic in passing HMS Hawke at such a speed that Olympic generated a suction which pulled HMS Hawke off course and into collision with Olympic. Damages were awarded to the Royal Navy.
The Captain of Titanic had also been the Captain of Olympic at the time of this incident!!
If there was a Titanic thread on this forum the I would be asking about the collision between her sister Ship RMS Olympic and HMS Hawke in Southampton Water some 6 months before RMS Titanic sailed on its Maiden voyage.
This would be particularly relevant because the Courts of Admiralty (nothing to do with the Royal Navy) had found the Captain of the Olympic negligent in his handling of the Olympic in passing HMS Hawke at such a speed that Olympic generated a suction which pulled HMS Hawke off course and into collision with Olympic. Damages were awarded to the Royal Navy.
The Captain of Titanic had also been the Captain of Olympic at the time of this incident!!
AA
More like a very sad one at that.
and just what is that supposed to mean?
London Eye
Spot on.
AA
Your comments are unfounded, unjust and display a totally immature approach to all matters military. Do you have a chip on both shoulders or just one?
I have a life, thank you... A very nice one at that
I have known this guy for nearly 20 years
'Nuff said..
'Nuff said..
London Eye
Spot on.
AA
Your comments are unfounded, unjust and display a totally immature approach to all matters military. Do you have a chip on both shoulders or just one?
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I am sure if anyone is aggrieved enough about the gate guard at Benson and wanted to volunteer to help restore it to an 'acceptable' standard then their services would be more than welcome. I reckon even the materials needed can be supplied.
Perhaps someone who lives local who has plenty of time on their hands?
Or perhaps the MCO can give James May a call as he seems handy with plastic Spitfires.
Or maybe those naughty Puma Boys can be given the job as a punishment or 'jankers' to quote the 20th century term.
and just for MGDs benefit:
That's because it is strewn all over the dispersal!!
(go on you know you want to!)
Perhaps someone who lives local who has plenty of time on their hands?
Or perhaps the MCO can give James May a call as he seems handy with plastic Spitfires.
Or maybe those naughty Puma Boys can be given the job as a punishment or 'jankers' to quote the 20th century term.
and just for MGDs benefit:
I doubt that Andy Turner (or his SWO!) would stand for an obviously broken gate guard or litter strewn public verges on his station.
(go on you know you want to!)
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and frankly have made me frigging livid!
Bearing in mind London Eye's statement:-
For what its worth, the same media course that I am sure that both Stn Cdr Benson and I attended gives the advice that "SD hats can, in strong natural or artificial light conditions, cause shading over the eyes causing the wearer to appear dishonest and evasive". I doubt for one minute that he forgot to pick up his hat, but rather chose not to. The decision might not have pleased everybody but a case of "hung if you do..........."
AA
The only lack of character that has been displayed is by you. Did it really take London Eye's comment to make you think that what you had written about another persons Leadership and professionalism was drivel. Wake up and smell the coffee eh!
The only lack of character that has been displayed is by you. Did it really take London Eye's comment to make you think that what you had written about another persons Leadership and professionalism was drivel. Wake up and smell the coffee eh!
Ignoring Wizards obvious bait (your slipping),
The issue of an SD hat is a complete irrelevant sideshow, frothed up by those with too much time on their hands.
Its very easy for those who did very worthwhile service during the cold war, with less pressure and more resources to suck their teeth when they see litter etc.
Johnny Burr is a good bloke and there is no less impact in what he says, purely because he isnt wearing a hat..Hello...it's 2009 FFS!
Good luck to the guys at Benson, particularly 33, who must have had their morale sapped again and again in recent years, purely because of one incident, allegedly caused by the irresponsible attitude of a newly CR captain. I hope we can let them move on now.
And no, Andy Turner probably wouldnt have allowed litter on the verges. But he's gone and we have a new staish who will no doubt be sorting out the litter right now Roger.
Ho hum!
The issue of an SD hat is a complete irrelevant sideshow, frothed up by those with too much time on their hands.
Its very easy for those who did very worthwhile service during the cold war, with less pressure and more resources to suck their teeth when they see litter etc.
Johnny Burr is a good bloke and there is no less impact in what he says, purely because he isnt wearing a hat..Hello...it's 2009 FFS!
Good luck to the guys at Benson, particularly 33, who must have had their morale sapped again and again in recent years, purely because of one incident, allegedly caused by the irresponsible attitude of a newly CR captain. I hope we can let them move on now.
And no, Andy Turner probably wouldnt have allowed litter on the verges. But he's gone and we have a new staish who will no doubt be sorting out the litter right now Roger.
Ho hum!
OK, so at Odiham I can find litter if I really go and look for it.
At Benson it smacks every passer by in the teeth when they drive past the Main Gate.
At Odiham the place looks neat and well cared for, at Benson it doesn't.
At Odiham the Gate Guard looks cared for, and in good order. Benson's plastic spit has no dihedral on the wing, and the starboard tailplane droops like that of an F-4.
These things may not matter, but they present a very poor first impression of a station whose management has been publicly criticised as 'sloppy' and inadequate. It just adds an own goal to the final score.
At Benson it smacks every passer by in the teeth when they drive past the Main Gate.
At Odiham the place looks neat and well cared for, at Benson it doesn't.
At Odiham the Gate Guard looks cared for, and in good order. Benson's plastic spit has no dihedral on the wing, and the starboard tailplane droops like that of an F-4.
These things may not matter, but they present a very poor first impression of a station whose management has been publicly criticised as 'sloppy' and inadequate. It just adds an own goal to the final score.
Airborne Aircrew and anyone else worried about hats!
Worried about hats? You'll no doubt be thinking a return to wearing suits in the mess after 6pm on mondays tuesdays and thursdays is overdue?
Worried about hats? You'll no doubt be thinking a return to wearing suits in the mess after 6pm on mondays tuesdays and thursdays is overdue?