Nimrod Information
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Chuggers,
I am TOTALLY against helping the media like this because they do nothing constructive with the matter, rather than fill a space on the internet with it, before moving on to talking about Amy Winehouse or something else.
Those with the issue should get the sqn Commanding Officer behind the gunsheds and tell him that if he hasn't got the balls to resign over something as critical as this, then his face is going to get some percussion adjustment and pronto. Then, the sqn COs need to go to the AOC en masse and get him behind the gunshed. THEN let the facts come out. If they can mitigate why they've done nothing, then fine. If they can't, then they need to have the balls to do a John Selwyn Gummer and invite their families onboard for a week of AAR refuelling jollies at 30,000 feet.
This isn't rocket science. We are playing with people's lives here. If manslaughter or cuplable or corporate homocide can be proved, then fine. Lets get the bastards on trial. Des broone too. But there is a difference between the USS Caine and RAF Kinloss. I hope. We go down this route at our peril.
I am TOTALLY against helping the media like this because they do nothing constructive with the matter, rather than fill a space on the internet with it, before moving on to talking about Amy Winehouse or something else.
Those with the issue should get the sqn Commanding Officer behind the gunsheds and tell him that if he hasn't got the balls to resign over something as critical as this, then his face is going to get some percussion adjustment and pronto. Then, the sqn COs need to go to the AOC en masse and get him behind the gunshed. THEN let the facts come out. If they can mitigate why they've done nothing, then fine. If they can't, then they need to have the balls to do a John Selwyn Gummer and invite their families onboard for a week of AAR refuelling jollies at 30,000 feet.
This isn't rocket science. We are playing with people's lives here. If manslaughter or cuplable or corporate homocide can be proved, then fine. Lets get the bastards on trial. Des broone too. But there is a difference between the USS Caine and RAF Kinloss. I hope. We go down this route at our peril.
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Throughout my career the services walked 'close to the line', sometimes straying over what was acceptable. However, although the Chinook fiasco was bad, this seems like criminal activity from the people in power!! Sometimes in life, however painful the consequences, you have to say that enough is enough, is now that time? Service personnel know the job is risky and are acting bravely every day on operations. Going without the basic kit to do the job is just NOT ACCEPTABLE. Forget your career aspirations and LEAD your people, even if it means telling the ministry the truth. These are real people you are using to climb the ladder, support them as they support you.
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Leaking the leak
AI R:
It looks to me as if this press leak might save lives.
The MOD have an abomnible record at dealing with such matters...keeping it secret and telling service men and women to stop whining and get on with it, despite the dangers is their usual modus operandi. Only when it becomes an issue that might actually cost someone a job (rather than a life) do things get done. Good luck to the brave person who risked their own career to get this into the public domain.
VP
2 arses need to be kicked very soundly here.
1. CAS
2. The wnker behind this..
"The crew's log, leaked to the BBC, reported the bomb bay doors "to be wet with fuel".
I am as sick and tired of this constant stream of seditious whining, as I am the criminal incompetence of those in charge.
1. CAS
2. The wnker behind this..
"The crew's log, leaked to the BBC, reported the bomb bay doors "to be wet with fuel".
I am as sick and tired of this constant stream of seditious whining, as I am the criminal incompetence of those in charge.
The MOD have an abomnible record at dealing with such matters...keeping it secret and telling service men and women to stop whining and get on with it, despite the dangers is their usual modus operandi. Only when it becomes an issue that might actually cost someone a job (rather than a life) do things get done. Good luck to the brave person who risked their own career to get this into the public domain.
VP
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Jay said: Forget your career aspirations and LEAD your people, even if it means telling the ministry the truth. These are real people you are using to climb the ladder, support them as they support you.
If CAS went now, citing his position as impossible due to having no money, no support and no faith in his boss, it would make him a hero forever. If he grips on, with white fingernails, and then goes (or even if he doesn't go) he is doomed forever. Peter DlB is persona non grata in Hereford lets not forget.
The argument that others would be too scared to take up his fallen baton is moot. I would rather we are lead by a succession of punchy 1 or 2 stars who are prepared to resign on matters of principle and integrity (remember that?) than by a series of 3 or 4 stars who only have eyes for the top of the greasy pole having got so close.
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Vox said: It looks to me as if this press leak might save lives.
The MOD have an abomnible record at dealing with such matters...keeping it secret and telling service men and women to stop whining and get on with it, despite the dangers is their usual modus operandi. Only when it becomes an issue that might actually cost someone a job (rather than a life) do things get done. Good luck to the brave person who risked their own career to get this into the public domain.
VP
The MOD have an abomnible record at dealing with such matters...keeping it secret and telling service men and women to stop whining and get on with it, despite the dangers is their usual modus operandi. Only when it becomes an issue that might actually cost someone a job (rather than a life) do things get done. Good luck to the brave person who risked their own career to get this into the public domain.
VP
And those who need a little fortitude, or who have forgotten about what they are paid to do, or who they are paid to lead, then I suggest they listen to Frank? In the meantime, leaking to the media (yes, its an awful allusion) is pointless unless you are prepared to go the whole 9 yards and go public with what you've got and be prepared to do time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKAxnB6Ap4o
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An MoD spokesman added:
...and this has been displayed by the MoD in the following way...errm.....well...nearly had it....no it's gone.
"As always the safety of our crews remains paramount."
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I am TOTALLY against helping the media like this because they do nothing constructive with the matter
ers who leak this material. You say you wouldnt involve the media. The tragic reality of a society that has been taught by the politicians to look for continual tax cuts is that only people risking their careers to get the media involved has any hope of alerting the public to the issue, thereby putting pressure on the politicians. Do you seriously think this is an issue the public shouldnt know about? As for Amy f
ing Whitehouse, I frankly wouldnt know how to write about her, I barely know who she is. You want to take out a petition to get the media to concentrate on serious subjects like this, and ignore Amy fing Whitehouse I will sign it a million times and back it all the way but sadly it wont make a jot of difference. Take a look on the newspaper websites at the most popular pages, a sex murder in Italy and the McCanns. Were I you, I would just be grateful that people were prepared to alert the media and a few - far too few - parts of the media responded, so there could be a proper discussion of why we are putting the lives of our forces needlessly at risk.
Rant over, sorry but I've sat back and heard enough whining about the media, usually for so-called speculation when in fact the vast majority has been legitimate and accurate reporting of official reports written by the RAF or in the most recent case by QinetiQ, a large proportion of which has not actually been leaked but obtained as a result of perfectly legitimate freedom of information requests.
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I have just watched the 2100 News 24 Bulletin, Nimrod leading and this time there was a report on the follow up IR. I sense elements of the Nimrod fleet are at the end of their tether.
The BBC report referred to the post XV230 procedure of monitoring the bomb bay during AAR looking for fuel leaks. So, Glenn Torpy says there is nothing connecting these leaks but they think it a good idea to look down a periscope in the bomb bay. Well, this could well have saved the lives of the crew.
How many times do we have to call for enhanced fire/tank protection?
Who cares about a career when you might wind up dead on your next sortie because some bean counter didn't want to spend the money and your own CoC was too weak to demand it?
""Asked if he thought that air-to-air refuelling was safe, Sir Glenn Torpy told Panorama: "It's exactly the same as the rest of the integrity of the aircraft. It has been a focus for understandable reasons and we did suspend air-to-air refuelling for a period in November. We are looking at what we're doing. It is as safe as it needs to be."
He admitted to being "very concerned" about the number of fuel leaks. But he added: "That's why we've made sure we analysed every single incident. There are no underlying themes."'
The BBC report referred to the post XV230 procedure of monitoring the bomb bay during AAR looking for fuel leaks. So, Glenn Torpy says there is nothing connecting these leaks but they think it a good idea to look down a periscope in the bomb bay. Well, this could well have saved the lives of the crew.
How many times do we have to call for enhanced fire/tank protection?
Who cares about a career when you might wind up dead on your next sortie because some bean counter didn't want to spend the money and your own CoC was too weak to demand it?
""Asked if he thought that air-to-air refuelling was safe, Sir Glenn Torpy told Panorama: "It's exactly the same as the rest of the integrity of the aircraft. It has been a focus for understandable reasons and we did suspend air-to-air refuelling for a period in November. We are looking at what we're doing. It is as safe as it needs to be."
He admitted to being "very concerned" about the number of fuel leaks. But he added: "That's why we've made sure we analysed every single incident. There are no underlying themes."'
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
And where did he get his information? Straight from the horse's mouth. I went into the bar of the RAF Club in 1971. My escort at the time pointed to the assembled throng in the bar at lunchtime. He said that journalists outnumbered RAF officers from the MOD at more than 2:1.
The only difference now is that the internet enables leaks from further away.
Well said, Mr Smith.
If the only way of putting pressure on the Government and MOD is via the media, then so be it and more power to their elbow. The Government/MOD spin machine can only be countered by the media - how else is the true voice of the the situation to be aired? Apart from General Dannat, who from the MOD has publicly put pressure on Downing St? CAS? Weasel words.
Sadly, the ethos of cowtowing (sp?) to the politicians seems to be so endemic and so embedded even down to Group and Station level that the leaking of an Incident Report becomes a vital tool in an effort to prevent further unnecessary loss of life.
When the crew of an aircraft find it necessary to take special action during what should be a routine procedure in order to safeguard their own lives, then we should salute their bravery and dedication to duty whilst vigorously castigating via all possible means those cowards who knowingly put them in such a position.
LL
If the only way of putting pressure on the Government and MOD is via the media, then so be it and more power to their elbow. The Government/MOD spin machine can only be countered by the media - how else is the true voice of the the situation to be aired? Apart from General Dannat, who from the MOD has publicly put pressure on Downing St? CAS? Weasel words.
Sadly, the ethos of cowtowing (sp?) to the politicians seems to be so endemic and so embedded even down to Group and Station level that the leaking of an Incident Report becomes a vital tool in an effort to prevent further unnecessary loss of life.
When the crew of an aircraft find it necessary to take special action during what should be a routine procedure in order to safeguard their own lives, then we should salute their bravery and dedication to duty whilst vigorously castigating via all possible means those cowards who knowingly put them in such a position.
LL
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Dear Mike,
With the greatest of respect, this discussion has no bearing at all on their decision making. And I know why I’m reading about this, and I know why I won’t be, next week. We demand constant news.. it changes every hour, we NEED something new because we check every hour. And soon, we’ll be reading something new, and then what?
And you misunderstand me. It IS an issue that the public needs to know about, but it is not going to happen because someone has allowed it to filter out like this. You won’t put politicians under any pressure with one shots like this. Consider how Brown bore the pressure of the Lisbon EU referendum. I’m aware of the shortcomings of the media. But it doesn’t make my points any less valid. Bottom line is, the media doesn’t care. If you go to the media appealing to them to make it a story, you'll get nowhere.
On the other hand, if you have a serving officer challenge the issue of Crown Immunity and name Brown and CAS as respondents in a civil matter concerning flight safety and the deaths of a number or unnamed servicemen, you might have the basis of a story. Let them grow it.. incentivise them to investigate and break something new, 'exciting' and prolonged. You have to fight smart and use the media against itself to get anywhere.
Ask yourself.. Fusilier Gentle died because the EPM eqpt was locked up yards from where he died. Matty Hull died because of a cock up. Who gives a flying fck about that now? Do you?? I don't see you going off about the army system, in fact.. I don't see anyone going off on one about Fus. Gentle today, because the media has moved on to Nimrod.. its another MoD story, and there'll be another one next week too.
Dear Lyneham Lad,
Yup, read my above.. but you don't do that by leaking one shots as in this incident.
Edit: Reference my last, don't use an officer, use an LAC who's PVR'd because he's had enough and he's got youthful integrity and a sense of morality. Yup, the CAS vs the LAC. Keep it tight, allow no meeja access and I get first dibs at the film rights. Bootiful.
With the greatest of respect, this discussion has no bearing at all on their decision making. And I know why I’m reading about this, and I know why I won’t be, next week. We demand constant news.. it changes every hour, we NEED something new because we check every hour. And soon, we’ll be reading something new, and then what?
And you misunderstand me. It IS an issue that the public needs to know about, but it is not going to happen because someone has allowed it to filter out like this. You won’t put politicians under any pressure with one shots like this. Consider how Brown bore the pressure of the Lisbon EU referendum. I’m aware of the shortcomings of the media. But it doesn’t make my points any less valid. Bottom line is, the media doesn’t care. If you go to the media appealing to them to make it a story, you'll get nowhere.
On the other hand, if you have a serving officer challenge the issue of Crown Immunity and name Brown and CAS as respondents in a civil matter concerning flight safety and the deaths of a number or unnamed servicemen, you might have the basis of a story. Let them grow it.. incentivise them to investigate and break something new, 'exciting' and prolonged. You have to fight smart and use the media against itself to get anywhere.
Ask yourself.. Fusilier Gentle died because the EPM eqpt was locked up yards from where he died. Matty Hull died because of a cock up. Who gives a flying f
ck about that now? Do you?? I don't see you going off about the army system, in fact.. I don't see anyone going off on one about Fus. Gentle today, because the media has moved on to Nimrod.. its another MoD story, and there'll be another one next week too.Dear Lyneham Lad,
Yup, read my above.. but you don't do that by leaking one shots as in this incident.
Edit: Reference my last, don't use an officer, use an LAC who's PVR'd because he's had enough and he's got youthful integrity and a sense of morality. Yup, the CAS vs the LAC. Keep it tight, allow no meeja access and I get first dibs at the film rights. Bootiful.
Last edited by Al R; 9th Nov 2007 at 20:59.
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AI R, whilst I think I understand your anger, I believe you are wrong. I cannot be certain, but the clue is in the delay in the report of the BoI.
Let's wait and see the recommendations. The RAF and MOD desperately need to drag back some credibility and the future of self-regulation could well be at stake.
I would not be surprised if we win the argument at the eleventh hour.
Let's wait and see the recommendations. The RAF and MOD desperately need to drag back some credibility and the future of self-regulation could well be at stake.
I would not be surprised if we win the argument at the eleventh hour.
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I have absolutely no doubt that something dramatic will happen, none whatsoever. The issue is one of maintaining credibility, a sense of self determination, and regaining control, you watch.
I am not a g'ment patsy, far from it.. I watched Henry Allingham tonight on N24 and felt humbled by the sacrifice bought about because men couldn't get along with other men. This goes beyond the stupidity of what our men and women are going through, this is something completely different. Its awful. But I stand by my points.
As an aside, Charles Wheeler has become one of our greatest broadcasters and commentators.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Allingham
I am not a g'ment patsy, far from it.. I watched Henry Allingham tonight on N24 and felt humbled by the sacrifice bought about because men couldn't get along with other men. This goes beyond the stupidity of what our men and women are going through, this is something completely different. Its awful. But I stand by my points.
As an aside, Charles Wheeler has become one of our greatest broadcasters and commentators.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Allingham
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I totally agree that the Media, as a body, are not genuinely interested in Nimrods or the crew of XV230. However, there are a number of journalists who have real concerns about the current situation, and the state of the Armed Forces in general.
The recent media coverage has caused concern for a number of people, including some of crew 3's next-of-kin, but is it better to have a drip feed of political pressure through the media, or none at all?
The recent media coverage has caused concern for a number of people, including some of crew 3's next-of-kin, but is it better to have a drip feed of political pressure through the media, or none at all?
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The niche journalists do not have the ears of enough people of importance, thats the problem. Lers face it.. its just another MoD cock up story, and hey, we're lose hundreds of men at the moment, right?
A drip drip feed of info is counterproductive. Here today, gone tomorrow.
A drip drip feed of info is counterproductive. Here today, gone tomorrow.
“If you have a serving officer challenge the issue of Crown Immunity…..”
Forgive me if I’ve misconstrued, but I didn’t think we had Crown Immunity anymore on airworthiness matters. Those who had airworthiness delegation were packed off to refresher courses following the issue of DCI GEN 89 on 26th March 1993.
These courses were so hastily cobbled together they only served to highlight the complete lack of unified and consistent policy, which exists to this day. The “tutors” knew all the theory, but very few had any practical experience of the obstacles placed in the way of those charged with attaining and maintaining airworthiness. Then, and now, the MoD mantra was “We have a robust regulatory framework”. Maybe so, but they don’t provide funds to actually implement it. That is; it is one thing to achieve safety and airworthiness on a new aircraft, but quite a different thing to maintain it through life.
Today, we heard the MoD spokesperson say “As always the safety of our crews remains paramount”. I’d love to be a fly on the wall in certain offices, given long standing and freely available MoD rulings that mandated Airworthiness Regulations can be ignored and, in fact, it is a disciplinary offence to insist on the provision of funding to maintain airworthiness before entering into a contract.
Of course, if Min(AF) wants to change his ruling………. And if PUS would care to offer his thoughts on those above him who disagree with his mandated policies……..
Forgive me if I’ve misconstrued, but I didn’t think we had Crown Immunity anymore on airworthiness matters. Those who had airworthiness delegation were packed off to refresher courses following the issue of DCI GEN 89 on 26th March 1993.
These courses were so hastily cobbled together they only served to highlight the complete lack of unified and consistent policy, which exists to this day. The “tutors” knew all the theory, but very few had any practical experience of the obstacles placed in the way of those charged with attaining and maintaining airworthiness. Then, and now, the MoD mantra was “We have a robust regulatory framework”. Maybe so, but they don’t provide funds to actually implement it. That is; it is one thing to achieve safety and airworthiness on a new aircraft, but quite a different thing to maintain it through life.
Today, we heard the MoD spokesperson say “As always the safety of our crews remains paramount”. I’d love to be a fly on the wall in certain offices, given long standing and freely available MoD rulings that mandated Airworthiness Regulations can be ignored and, in fact, it is a disciplinary offence to insist on the provision of funding to maintain airworthiness before entering into a contract.
Of course, if Min(AF) wants to change his ruling………. And if PUS would care to offer his thoughts on those above him who disagree with his mandated policies……..
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tucumseh, regards the words of the MoD spokesman...the safety of our crews is of paramount importance etc....what can i say???!!! same old words, different crash, different s***storm!
they traipse out the same old words and think we don't notice and by doing so alongside their actions reveal their thoughts on the personnel of the armed forces...nothing.however, the reality is that the news today is tomorrows chip paper.sad but true. it matters to us but those it doesn't affect tend to have forgotten about it the next day.
well done to the crew of the nimrod for staying safe.
keep the faith
they traipse out the same old words and think we don't notice and by doing so alongside their actions reveal their thoughts on the personnel of the armed forces...nothing.however, the reality is that the news today is tomorrows chip paper.sad but true. it matters to us but those it doesn't affect tend to have forgotten about it the next day.
well done to the crew of the nimrod for staying safe.
keep the faith
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What has happened this week makes me shudder. My friends have yet again been put in a position that they did not bring upon themselves. We all know that we have a certain amount of risk that we will be subjected too. But this arises from where we operate our given platforms. The MR2 operates in a theatre where it can be in very grave danger. Fine, i get paid for that. But I hope that someone has ensured that I can complete my task without the platform I am in becoming the very thing I have to fight.
I love the MR2, the crews, and the jobs that we complete all the time. Most of which we complete without any acknowledgment. I want to be able to support my colleagues on the ground and complete the multitude of other tasks that this aircraft and the skilled operators can achieve.
This week we could have witnessed another crash.
This has to stop.
I applaud all on this thread who want to get to the truth, and for those who want us to stop, then this week has been a wake up call.
Good work lads, hope the beers have been good this week.
I love the MR2, the crews, and the jobs that we complete all the time. Most of which we complete without any acknowledgment. I want to be able to support my colleagues on the ground and complete the multitude of other tasks that this aircraft and the skilled operators can achieve.
This week we could have witnessed another crash.
This has to stop.
I applaud all on this thread who want to get to the truth, and for those who want us to stop, then this week has been a wake up call.
Good work lads, hope the beers have been good this week.
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Al R
Whilst I would agree that disclosing an IR to the media is not the proper thing to do, it has proved to us all here that there WAS yet another incident concerning an MR2, AAR and a fuel leak.
Had we not had the IR leaked, then someone would have eventually told a friend of a friend etc. and it would be on here as another 'hey, I heard there was another Nimrod incident blah......can anyone confirm it?'
So yes, leaking classified info isn't ideal and I don't agree with it, but in this case I think that it was understandable and probably inevitable that it was going to get out, and the IR is proof of events.
I fail to see why no one, CAS especially, has NOT had the ba££s to do the correct thing and resign and go public about the matter. I would think that after his sad display on the Panorama programme, CAS has backed himself into a corner with comments such as 'they are as safe as they need to be' and there will clearly be some difficult questions ahead for him.
I also think that it is now bordering on criminal neglegence and incompetance to allow further Nimrod operations. The lives of our servicemen and women are too valuable to allow this to continue. CAS and AOC 2Gp should be ashamed at what has happened and what is still happening with the Nimrod fleet, and if they cannot, then they are clearly not fit to hold office - their judgement has been found to be seriously lacking.
So, go now CAS and AOC 2Gp and maybe even ISK Stn Cdr. You have all had the ability to call a halt to this, and you have failed. Shame on you.
Fantastic efforts by the crew, and I'm just delighted that I won't be having to attend even more funerals of dear friends (for the time being at least) Well done guys and girls.
TSM
Whilst I would agree that disclosing an IR to the media is not the proper thing to do, it has proved to us all here that there WAS yet another incident concerning an MR2, AAR and a fuel leak.
Had we not had the IR leaked, then someone would have eventually told a friend of a friend etc. and it would be on here as another 'hey, I heard there was another Nimrod incident blah......can anyone confirm it?'
So yes, leaking classified info isn't ideal and I don't agree with it, but in this case I think that it was understandable and probably inevitable that it was going to get out, and the IR is proof of events.
I fail to see why no one, CAS especially, has NOT had the ba££s to do the correct thing and resign and go public about the matter. I would think that after his sad display on the Panorama programme, CAS has backed himself into a corner with comments such as 'they are as safe as they need to be' and there will clearly be some difficult questions ahead for him.
I also think that it is now bordering on criminal neglegence and incompetance to allow further Nimrod operations. The lives of our servicemen and women are too valuable to allow this to continue. CAS and AOC 2Gp should be ashamed at what has happened and what is still happening with the Nimrod fleet, and if they cannot, then they are clearly not fit to hold office - their judgement has been found to be seriously lacking.
So, go now CAS and AOC 2Gp and maybe even ISK Stn Cdr. You have all had the ability to call a halt to this, and you have failed. Shame on you.
Fantastic efforts by the crew, and I'm just delighted that I won't be having to attend even more funerals of dear friends (for the time being at least) Well done guys and girls.
TSM
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So, MightyHunterAge, the wee short chap (MRA4 test pilot?) and all the others, who have been somewhat quiet since the incident, what do you think now? Would you honestly still be happy to fly in a Nimrod????
Those who know what a Mayday means will form the impression that the crew were in imminent danger. They were not. They never were. However, in fairness to them, they were scared and feared for their lives. Why? Because the situation was very similar to XV230 and no-one has yet told them (BOI report) why it was actually very different. It is because of this lack of crucual info that they did what they did and they, my friends and colleagues, did it well.
The underlying reason for the crew's decision to divert off task lies not with the aircraft. It lies with those who have not released the findings of the senior officers on the BOI.