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Safety,
I could have tried to illustrate my point by talking about fault tree analysis, conditioning factors, HRIs etc but that would have been lost to most people. The analysis was blunt but trying to highlight a point that all could understand.
I am not suggesting that MOD aircraft regulation is not faultless, only that bringing MRA4 into the argument because of the tragic loss of 230 is fundamentally flawed.
I could have tried to illustrate my point by talking about fault tree analysis, conditioning factors, HRIs etc but that would have been lost to most people. The analysis was blunt but trying to highlight a point that all could understand.
I am not suggesting that MOD aircraft regulation is not faultless, only that bringing MRA4 into the argument because of the tragic loss of 230 is fundamentally flawed.
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MOA I am not just saying the MoD is negligent, I am saying it is criminally negligent.
"3 strikes and you are out."
Sounds good to me.
As for Nimrod IPT, I would liken it to the Greenback, sinking in value by the day.
"3 strikes and you are out."
Sounds good to me.
As for Nimrod IPT, I would liken it to the Greenback, sinking in value by the day.
Last edited by nigegilb; 7th Nov 2007 at 22:35.
An RAF Nimrod flying over southern Afghanistan put out a Mayday call and made an emergency landing at Kandahar air base on Monday after crew found fuel pouring into the bomb bay.
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Well said Chug,
AOC 2Gp, they were tanking under your express orders, BYE BYE,
BOI is rapidly becoming an irrelevance, overtaken by events, pathetic.
I would imagine, a fair few people with a stake in this are bewildered tonight. Who can blame them?
AOC 2Gp, they were tanking under your express orders, BYE BYE,
BOI is rapidly becoming an irrelevance, overtaken by events, pathetic.
I would imagine, a fair few people with a stake in this are bewildered tonight. Who can blame them?
Last edited by nigegilb; 7th Nov 2007 at 22:58.
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LabQueen,
Please, for the sake of your own sanity, stop looking at PPrune!
Its a simple as that. Don't come on here, lambasting everyone who has passed a comment or made a suggestion and being rude to some of them. You are out of order madam.
We have all made it abundantly clear that you and the others have our deepest sympathy and condolences, and many of us share in your grief to a greater or lesser degree, but I fail to see why you constantly inflict pain upon yourself by reading what's posted here.
You have made your point, and expressed your wishes; clearly that isn't going to happen, so I think that would be best for you now to just not log on here anymore.
Kind regards
TSM
Please, for the sake of your own sanity, stop looking at PPrune!
Its a simple as that. Don't come on here, lambasting everyone who has passed a comment or made a suggestion and being rude to some of them. You are out of order madam.
We have all made it abundantly clear that you and the others have our deepest sympathy and condolences, and many of us share in your grief to a greater or lesser degree, but I fail to see why you constantly inflict pain upon yourself by reading what's posted here.
You have made your point, and expressed your wishes; clearly that isn't going to happen, so I think that would be best for you now to just not log on here anymore.
Kind regards
TSM
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Can anyone with a bit of insight explain why it is that MRA4 is being belatedly rushed into service with little in the way of combat/fire protection, to fulfill a surveillance role, when ASTOR is already in service and as fas as I understand, actually designed for the job?
Better still, why is the MR2, being forced to carry out dangerous AAR Ops just because it has a TV camera and a radio on board when ASTOR is in service?
I assume in service does not mean combat ready, but does anyone have an idea when this aircraft will be able to be deployed?
Better still, why is the MR2, being forced to carry out dangerous AAR Ops just because it has a TV camera and a radio on board when ASTOR is in service?
I assume in service does not mean combat ready, but does anyone have an idea when this aircraft will be able to be deployed?
Last edited by nigegilb; 8th Nov 2007 at 06:22.
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Not true really, ASTOR cant do the job the MR2 does and visa-versa. It could be argued that there isn't any other platform that can do what the MR2 is capable of.
ASTOR is a way off being deployed yet as it will take a while for aircrews/groundcrews to get to know the plane. Maybe next year if we are lucky, but again, it wont replace the MR2.
ASTOR is a way off being deployed yet as it will take a while for aircrews/groundcrews to get to know the plane. Maybe next year if we are lucky, but again, it wont replace the MR2.
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MR2
I dont know about bomb bay protection... it could do with some security protection!!!
There are more information leaks than fuel leaks out of the Nimrod fleet these days.
CS
There are more information leaks than fuel leaks out of the Nimrod fleet these days.
CS
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Could one of the more informed contributors here answer the following:
If the Times report is true about an alleged incident on Monday, and if the nature of this alleged incident is considered to be related to the findings (to date)of the BOI on 230, then could this delay the BOI on 230 should the BOI teamwish to inspect/investigate this latest alleged incident? Or is the BOI regarded as a separate and closed matter to the one airframe, the accident and its in-service history?
If the Times report is true about an alleged incident on Monday, and if the nature of this alleged incident is considered to be related to the findings (to date)of the BOI on 230, then could this delay the BOI on 230 should the BOI teamwish to inspect/investigate this latest alleged incident? Or is the BOI regarded as a separate and closed matter to the one airframe, the accident and its in-service history?
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Originally Posted by camelspyder
dont know about bomb bay protection... it could do with some security protection!!!
There are more information leaks than fuel leaks out of the Nimrod fleet these days.
There are more information leaks than fuel leaks out of the Nimrod fleet these days.
How does Mr Smith get his scoop so soon? Did the MoD make an announcement?
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"Can anyone with a bit of insight explain why it is that MRA4 is being belatedly rushed into service with little in the way of combat/fire protection"
MRA4 is hardly being "rushed into service", its over 10 years late and still a long way from being delivered, operationally capable etc etc
MRA4 is hardly being "rushed into service", its over 10 years late and still a long way from being delivered, operationally capable etc etc
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GT, depends which way you look at it. It is already 10 years late, so what is another year, if it is safer to enter service a little later than the revised plan.
You have heard the point of view across the floor. "let's UOR some Flight Deck Armour after it enters service."
MRA4 is being "belatedly rushed into service," that is why I used the word belated. Planned testing has been reduced and any modification that would delay entry is simply not being considered. Any of the IPT lot posting here should take a look across the Atlantic and see how the Americans do it. Survivability is built into the core design. It is incoherent and dangerous to do otherwise.
"BAe are being pressured to get MRA4 into service pronto because the RAF need the capability... (with a corresponding reduction in development testing no less.... & which part of the world is MRA4 is destined for.....?
Without armour or fuel tank protection..."
You have heard the point of view across the floor. "let's UOR some Flight Deck Armour after it enters service."
MRA4 is being "belatedly rushed into service," that is why I used the word belated. Planned testing has been reduced and any modification that would delay entry is simply not being considered. Any of the IPT lot posting here should take a look across the Atlantic and see how the Americans do it. Survivability is built into the core design. It is incoherent and dangerous to do otherwise.
"BAe are being pressured to get MRA4 into service pronto because the RAF need the capability... (with a corresponding reduction in development testing no less.... & which part of the world is MRA4 is destined for.....?
Without armour or fuel tank protection..."
Last edited by nigegilb; 8th Nov 2007 at 12:34.
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Nige
As you probably are aware the current MR2 has a Armour fit in place, but with operating altitudes blah blah there is no requirement for an aircraft with the job its doing to have any fitted they are well out of reach of small arms.
Anyway i thought this discussion was about that fatefull day and armour or not had no bearing on what happened!!
Bomb bay suppresion systems, yes maybe things would have turned out diffrent if there had been, but there wasnt and we will see if the BOI finds that an issue in the report.Personally i dont think it would have made one bit of diffrence, you are looking at Rib 1 area and not the bomb bay(close though) but i dont like to speculate ,the proffesionals are on the job and they will find out what happened.they have far more facts than us speculators !!
With the MRA4 having the potential to carry Air to Ground weapons (possability) it would be prudent to have something in place.Im sure with all that has happened there will be recomendations by the BOI ,again that will be down to the user and the cost of implementing improvements.
As you probably are aware the current MR2 has a Armour fit in place, but with operating altitudes blah blah there is no requirement for an aircraft with the job its doing to have any fitted they are well out of reach of small arms.
Anyway i thought this discussion was about that fatefull day and armour or not had no bearing on what happened!!
Bomb bay suppresion systems, yes maybe things would have turned out diffrent if there had been, but there wasnt and we will see if the BOI finds that an issue in the report.Personally i dont think it would have made one bit of diffrence, you are looking at Rib 1 area and not the bomb bay(close though) but i dont like to speculate ,the proffesionals are on the job and they will find out what happened.they have far more facts than us speculators !!
With the MRA4 having the potential to carry Air to Ground weapons (possability) it would be prudent to have something in place.Im sure with all that has happened there will be recomendations by the BOI ,again that will be down to the user and the cost of implementing improvements.
Im sure with all that has happened there will be recomendations by the BOI ,again that will be down to the user and the cost of implementing improvements
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Cheers Magner, great name btw. This thread ebbs and flows, my interest is mainly to work for more built in survivability and protection for our aircraft.
I am of the aircrew generation who sat on coils of chain, FDA is a subject close to my heart.
Mags, just a thought about the Mayday aircraft on Monday, which performed an emergency landing following an emergency descent into Kandahar airfield.
Kandahar is hot, hot, hot, at the moment and will continue to be. Civilian food/water supply convoys heading for coalition bases are being attacked on a regular basis, ANA, and local friendlies are being killed at a rate of 60 or so a month. A few weeks a go a coalition helo was shot down by a combined attack, RPG and Generation 2 SAM. The point is, you never know when you are going to need FDA. Give me the choice and I would take it every time. Suggesting to UOR FDA after service entry just serves to underline the inability of the RAF to demand proper funding to achieve decent aircraft protection.
It wasn't a great feeling to be sitting on a flak jacket watching the tracer aimed in my general direction. Replacing an aircraft that has FDA with one that does not is not an indication of a coherent strategy. I thought we had left those dark days behind.
Nobody here needs reminding what a single round can do to a fuel tank and yet this aircraft has no prospect of fuel tank protection, neither does it's replacement. Whereas I will probably be flying an airliner with it in 3 or 4 years time. It's a funny old world.
Edited to add an apology to MOA. Sorry not in best mood today.
I am of the aircrew generation who sat on coils of chain, FDA is a subject close to my heart.
Mags, just a thought about the Mayday aircraft on Monday, which performed an emergency landing following an emergency descent into Kandahar airfield.
Kandahar is hot, hot, hot, at the moment and will continue to be. Civilian food/water supply convoys heading for coalition bases are being attacked on a regular basis, ANA, and local friendlies are being killed at a rate of 60 or so a month. A few weeks a go a coalition helo was shot down by a combined attack, RPG and Generation 2 SAM. The point is, you never know when you are going to need FDA. Give me the choice and I would take it every time. Suggesting to UOR FDA after service entry just serves to underline the inability of the RAF to demand proper funding to achieve decent aircraft protection.
It wasn't a great feeling to be sitting on a flak jacket watching the tracer aimed in my general direction. Replacing an aircraft that has FDA with one that does not is not an indication of a coherent strategy. I thought we had left those dark days behind.
Nobody here needs reminding what a single round can do to a fuel tank and yet this aircraft has no prospect of fuel tank protection, neither does it's replacement. Whereas I will probably be flying an airliner with it in 3 or 4 years time. It's a funny old world.
Edited to add an apology to MOA. Sorry not in best mood today.
Last edited by nigegilb; 8th Nov 2007 at 15:16.
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Da4orce, I would like to apologise to you for calling you a dildo, it was wrong of me and was done so purely in response to your comments of having my eyes shut etc. Normally your comment wouldn't have elicited a response such as that from me, however, I have received several accusations from posting members here, that, 1) I must not care about the death of my loved one because I am not seeking answers, 2) With my calls for speculation to cease I must be trying to help in a cover up of the events that day and several choice terms and phrases used towards me. To take that out upon you was wrong of me, I am sorry.
The Swinging Monkey, thank you for your concern over my health, and if the matter was simply to refrain from logging onto pprune, then yes I woud be in agreement with you, however the matter isn't pprune, I and the other family members who have posted here have asked for the media involvement to end as that isn't something which can be easily avoided. It's not the same as avoiding switching on to Eastenders, not when it is in several newspapers, being discussed by the public, on the news, and television programmes dedicated to the event, and being advertised for that fact.
I do not claim to be speaking for the majority of families, I am the appointed spokesperson for my family alone, not for any other family. When I have made comment about the majority of families requesting an end to the speculation and to await the BOI, this is solely indicating and pointing out the fact that several other family members have posted here asking the same as I do.
I am not entirely blinkered to the fact that the BOI will give all answers and all facts of what may or may not have happened that day. I know that this will not be feasibly possible, they have not been able to gain safe access to the crash site or to be able to examine the remains of 230, however I do believe they will be able to take the information they have, events leading up to the crash, information from the black boxes and other relevant information they will have aquired to make an informed explanation, even if that may be an inconclusive one. It will certainly not have been an easy task for the board in this investigation, I think they deserve to be given a chance to present those findings.
Tappers Dad, Sir, the calls for an end to media speculation are not in any shape or form a personal attack on you or your family, they are simply a request to respect and allow those who wish for peace in a time of grief, you are entitled to your way of grieving as are we. I do wish you and your family well, and I do hope you find peace in your grief.
The Swinging Monkey, thank you for your concern over my health, and if the matter was simply to refrain from logging onto pprune, then yes I woud be in agreement with you, however the matter isn't pprune, I and the other family members who have posted here have asked for the media involvement to end as that isn't something which can be easily avoided. It's not the same as avoiding switching on to Eastenders, not when it is in several newspapers, being discussed by the public, on the news, and television programmes dedicated to the event, and being advertised for that fact.
I do not claim to be speaking for the majority of families, I am the appointed spokesperson for my family alone, not for any other family. When I have made comment about the majority of families requesting an end to the speculation and to await the BOI, this is solely indicating and pointing out the fact that several other family members have posted here asking the same as I do.
I am not entirely blinkered to the fact that the BOI will give all answers and all facts of what may or may not have happened that day. I know that this will not be feasibly possible, they have not been able to gain safe access to the crash site or to be able to examine the remains of 230, however I do believe they will be able to take the information they have, events leading up to the crash, information from the black boxes and other relevant information they will have aquired to make an informed explanation, even if that may be an inconclusive one. It will certainly not have been an easy task for the board in this investigation, I think they deserve to be given a chance to present those findings.
Tappers Dad, Sir, the calls for an end to media speculation are not in any shape or form a personal attack on you or your family, they are simply a request to respect and allow those who wish for peace in a time of grief, you are entitled to your way of grieving as are we. I do wish you and your family well, and I do hope you find peace in your grief.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Could one of the more informed contributors here answer the following:
If the Times report is true about an alleged incident on Monday, and if the nature of this alleged incident is considered to be related to the findings (to date)of the BOI on 230, then could this delay the BOI on 230 should the BOI teamwish to inspect/investigate this latest alleged incident? Or is the BOI regarded as a separate and closed matter to the one airframe, the accident and its in-service history?
If the Times report is true about an alleged incident on Monday, and if the nature of this alleged incident is considered to be related to the findings (to date)of the BOI on 230, then could this delay the BOI on 230 should the BOI teamwish to inspect/investigate this latest alleged incident? Or is the BOI regarded as a separate and closed matter to the one airframe, the accident and its in-service history?
The BOI on 230 will indeed be a separate matter to the one airframe (note the wording) however it is extremely probably that the latest incident will be used by the 230 BOI. There will most likely be a separate BOI for the latest incident.
My reasoning for the 230 BOI using the latest aircraft is that they will undoubtedly have looked at other Nimrods to gain an understanding of all the possible points of failure. An actual failure will possibly help them identify the most probable points of failure on 230.