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B15, in absence of TD maybe I can help. XV230 and the chaperone Harrier were sighted by Kandahar Twr before the explosion. Eye witnesses reported the wing exploding first. Furthermore, my own contacts have confirmed to me that the aircraft suffered a fuel tank explosion.
(Earlier this year) The fleet has only been properly grounded once, last week, the others have only restricted what we can do ie. AAR and even then op cmdrs have been able to waive that. There was a fire onboard and a subsequent explosion but the ignition source is unknown. It is supposition that a fuel pipe/vent system leak was ignited by hot air/spar. I don't think we will ever establish the cause of the fire however the explosion has to have been a fuel tank......
(Earlier this year) The fleet has only been properly grounded once, last week, the others have only restricted what we can do ie. AAR and even then op cmdrs have been able to waive that. There was a fire onboard and a subsequent explosion but the ignition source is unknown. It is supposition that a fuel pipe/vent system leak was ignited by hot air/spar. I don't think we will ever establish the cause of the fire however the explosion has to have been a fuel tank......
Last edited by nigegilb; 8th Jun 2007 at 18:23.
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It is not unusual for a crew to be on "Ops" Standby eg SAR but not to have a jet "readily" available until "later" !!!!!!!
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NigeB
Thank you!
However, I doubt a fuel tank explosion per se
Aviation fuel has to be in a critical state for it to ignite - ie - atomised - with the correct amount of fuel, air, temperature and pressure
If I threw a lighted match into a dustbin of Avtur at ground level, the match would extinguish
Most likely culprit - the galleries between 7a tank and the wing tanks and close to the source of the fire - all of which would have been primed
Thank you!
However, I doubt a fuel tank explosion per se
Aviation fuel has to be in a critical state for it to ignite - ie - atomised - with the correct amount of fuel, air, temperature and pressure
If I threw a lighted match into a dustbin of Avtur at ground level, the match would extinguish
Most likely culprit - the galleries between 7a tank and the wing tanks and close to the source of the fire - all of which would have been primed
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B15, it is not the fuel that goes bang it is the ullage, the fuel/air vapours in the fuel tank. A chain reaction causes a huge overpressure in the fuel tank which is explosive. Quickest and cheapest method of protecting the fuel tank is to fit OBIGGS. This purges the ullage of oxygen and replaces it with nitrogen, inerting the space. Beags has some photos of an airliner that was hit with a SAM and suffered a fuel tank explosion.
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MR POINT
SAR is being maintained.
There will be two crews designated to cover SAR.
There will be a jet available.
Sometimes that SAR jet, however goes flying to meet other tasks - but that jet and its crew will then hold "airborne" SAR for the duration of the sortie.
When the jet is down then the original SAR designated crews have "their" jet(s) back.
It's a case of using a serviceable airframe for many tasks!
SAR is being maintained.
There will be two crews designated to cover SAR.
There will be a jet available.
Sometimes that SAR jet, however goes flying to meet other tasks - but that jet and its crew will then hold "airborne" SAR for the duration of the sortie.
When the jet is down then the original SAR designated crews have "their" jet(s) back.
It's a case of using a serviceable airframe for many tasks!
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When the jet is down then the original SAR designated crews have "their" jet(s) back.
or a couple of hours later, after the AF/BF and the refuel etc ?
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Covec
Sometimes that SAR jet, however goes flying to meet other tasks - but that jet and its crew will then hold "airborne" SAR for the duration of the sortie.
Billy No-Jets ; wrote this on the Kinloss whats going on thread back in March
Crews are not really current, as said there is seldom a SAR jet available and when a sortie does go the crew make a pretence at holding 'airborne SAR' - only effective if the incident is within about 200 miles of your area and within the first 3 hours of your sortie. God help us with another Piper Alpha!!
Have things changed since then ???
Sometimes that SAR jet, however goes flying to meet other tasks - but that jet and its crew will then hold "airborne" SAR for the duration of the sortie.
Billy No-Jets ; wrote this on the Kinloss whats going on thread back in March
Crews are not really current, as said there is seldom a SAR jet available and when a sortie does go the crew make a pretence at holding 'airborne SAR' - only effective if the incident is within about 200 miles of your area and within the first 3 hours of your sortie. God help us with another Piper Alpha!!
Have things changed since then ???
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
[QUOTE=Tappers Dad;make a pretence at holding 'airborne SAR' - only effective if the incident is within about 200 miles of your area and within the first 3 hours of your sortie. God help us with another Piper Alpha!![/QUOTE]
Nothing new here TD. Thirty years ago it was quite normal to hold airborne SAR. As for within 200 miles that is an over simplification.
A SAR ac is to launch within 60 minutes, typically 30. If the airborne SAR is within 200 miles east of Kinloss it can be in the same position as the ground aircraft after 30 minutes for an incident over land or to the west.
As for the '3 hrs', assuming a one hour transit and a recovery to the most suitable airfield one hour from the search area (400 miles) is could still provide 4 hours on task at the 3 hr point. Only at the 5-6 hr point would we be in an area of marginal support but it would still give an additional 3 hrs to get another jet airborne and at least on its way.
That was the logic 30 years ago.
Nothing new here TD. Thirty years ago it was quite normal to hold airborne SAR. As for within 200 miles that is an over simplification.
A SAR ac is to launch within 60 minutes, typically 30. If the airborne SAR is within 200 miles east of Kinloss it can be in the same position as the ground aircraft after 30 minutes for an incident over land or to the west.
As for the '3 hrs', assuming a one hour transit and a recovery to the most suitable airfield one hour from the search area (400 miles) is could still provide 4 hours on task at the 3 hr point. Only at the 5-6 hr point would we be in an area of marginal support but it would still give an additional 3 hrs to get another jet airborne and at least on its way.
That was the logic 30 years ago.
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PN
I was quoting Billy No-Jets posting in March
As far as A SAR ac is to launch within 60 minutes, typically 30.
When my son was on SAR duty he lived in Inveness and the rule is that you must get to the base within 45 minutes. So I don't think 30 mins is a typical response time.
Quite a number of air crew now live in Inverness as well.
I was quoting Billy No-Jets posting in March
As far as A SAR ac is to launch within 60 minutes, typically 30.
When my son was on SAR duty he lived in Inveness and the rule is that you must get to the base within 45 minutes. So I don't think 30 mins is a typical response time.
Quite a number of air crew now live in Inverness as well.
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TD, as far as modern response times go, and perhaps also my memory, you will be better placed to say what the modern times are. 30 years ago we lived in the mess at, IIRC, 60 minutes.
If the response time has relaxed to 2 hours it follows that airborne SAR actually provides a better response time albeit a shorter on task time. IF there is a serviceable ground SAR then they can do a considered planned launch rather than a scramble.
This used to happen from time to time.
As for Inverness to airborne in one hour, that would probably be quite possible.
I lived in Nairn and we used to hold QRA at Lossiemouth at 2 hours and sometimes 90 minutes. From Nairn to Lossie was 30 miles and I expected to be airborne on a scramble within 50-55 minutes.
If the response time has relaxed to 2 hours it follows that airborne SAR actually provides a better response time albeit a shorter on task time. IF there is a serviceable ground SAR then they can do a considered planned launch rather than a scramble.
This used to happen from time to time.
As for Inverness to airborne in one hour, that would probably be quite possible.
I lived in Nairn and we used to hold QRA at Lossiemouth at 2 hours and sometimes 90 minutes. From Nairn to Lossie was 30 miles and I expected to be airborne on a scramble within 50-55 minutes.
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SAR Readiness timings
Just to clarify the errors in response times for Nimrod crews on SAR....
The RAF website quotes the correct 2 hour response time for Ops 1 crews.
http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafkinloss/aboutus/nimrodmr2.cfm
The RAF website quotes the correct 2 hour response time for Ops 1 crews.
http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafkinloss/aboutus/nimrodmr2.cfm
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SAR is being maintained.
There will be two crews designated to cover SAR.
There will be a jet available.
There will be two crews designated to cover SAR.
There will be a jet available.
The SAR/Ops Nimrod MR2 was on operation standby at 60 minutes notice, with crews living in the mess, until about 2 years ago. When this changed to 120 minutes notice, crew members were then allowed to remain on-call from home. As has already been stated, some aircrew live as far away as Inverness.
The change was brought about to ease the burden on crews, post 2003, and was fought by the SAR Force. I'd like to bet that there have been times when a Nimrod has been requested to prove topcover for a helicopter but refused because of timing issues since the change to 2 hours notice.
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When we held 2 hour QRA from home, for a normal hours scramble, it was not unknown for the odd stray to be roped in to shorten the scramble time.
I once intercepted a late arrival in the car park and pushed him straight onto the aircraft, goonsuit and head set following
Back on SAROPS, the SOP was for additional crew members to fly, for instance a pilot and a couple of extra AEOp, as extra eyes on the flight deck and in the beams as visual lookouts were supposed to be changed after 30 min (?). Notwithstanding planned launches, 24 crews etc, I was unaware of that ever happening.
I once intercepted a late arrival in the car park and pushed him straight onto the aircraft, goonsuit and head set following
Back on SAROPS, the SOP was for additional crew members to fly, for instance a pilot and a couple of extra AEOp, as extra eyes on the flight deck and in the beams as visual lookouts were supposed to be changed after 30 min (?). Notwithstanding planned launches, 24 crews etc, I was unaware of that ever happening.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Mr Point, I believe the SAR Herc was an option years ago too but the 60 minute Nimrod was usually best placed, especially when 42 held SAR. I think from time to time, even then, the Herc was used for southern callouts.
Now though, where the fleet is so small, the Herc wold be the best bet on many occaisions.
Now though, where the fleet is so small, the Herc wold be the best bet on many occaisions.
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Apart from the significant difference in capability, experience and transit speed. From what I can gather, the Hercules is being used on occasion to provide SAR cover for the whole of the UK Search & Rescue Region, not just the southern areas.
The Nimrod has up to 5 shots at dropping liferafts (2 x ASR and 3 x Double dinghy pairs), 12 sets of eyes, lots of radios and prior experience in the coordination of large scale over-water SAROps.
The Hercules has limited experience in the South Atlantic providing topcover for 78 Sqn. As has previously been stated, another Piper Alpha with no Nimrod available would be very difficult to coordinate.
The Nimrod has up to 5 shots at dropping liferafts (2 x ASR and 3 x Double dinghy pairs), 12 sets of eyes, lots of radios and prior experience in the coordination of large scale over-water SAROps.
The Hercules has limited experience in the South Atlantic providing topcover for 78 Sqn. As has previously been stated, another Piper Alpha with no Nimrod available would be very difficult to coordinate.
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pontious airborne in one hour from inverness
no chance! physically possible Just I suppose, but realistically not a chance, even in the middle of the night with no traffic and just staying withing the speed limits it would take you about half an hour just to get to the camp.
Don't think I have ever seen it done in that time even when everyone is at hand let alone in Inverness.
no chance! physically possible Just I suppose, but realistically not a chance, even in the middle of the night with no traffic and just staying withing the speed limits it would take you about half an hour just to get to the camp.Don't think I have ever seen it done in that time even when everyone is at hand let alone in Inverness.
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The days of a dedicated SAR jet sitting on the deck at Kinloss on constant stby have long gone I'm afraid.
Nowadays the aircraft hold airbourne SAR on a 4 hour CT/OpsCT regularly with nowhere near enough fuel onboard to be able to provide an effective top cover if a SAR shout came in.
Even if the jet then landed to get fuel on board the 'constant charge' (CC) servicing that was implemented in recent times has been scrapped due to fuel checks being carried out after every refuel.
I wonder if Joe public would be happy to know of this situation? (mind you thats if they even care)
Nowadays the aircraft hold airbourne SAR on a 4 hour CT/OpsCT regularly with nowhere near enough fuel onboard to be able to provide an effective top cover if a SAR shout came in.
Even if the jet then landed to get fuel on board the 'constant charge' (CC) servicing that was implemented in recent times has been scrapped due to fuel checks being carried out after every refuel.
I wonder if Joe public would be happy to know of this situation? (mind you thats if they even care)
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The change was brought about to ease the burden on crews, post 2003, and was fought by the SAR Force. I'd like to bet that there have been times when a Nimrod has been requested to prove topcover for a helicopter but refused because of timing issues since the change to 2 hours notice.
A 2 hour standby does not require a serviceable a/c to sit on the line, it means an a/c needs to be available for a crew to launch within 2 hours. This allows more flexibilty to the fleet managers.