Nimrod Information
Join Date: Feb 2007
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In my book it makes them a bunch of sensible minded individuals who saw an apparent defect with an aircraft and made an appropriate decision.
After all only an idiot would get into and fly in an aircraft that had a fuel leak..............well wouldn't they
After all only an idiot would get into and fly in an aircraft that had a fuel leak..............well wouldn't they
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: 4 Civvy Street. Nowhere-near-a-base. The Shires.
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Mad! i think not
No I would not get on board if I could see 1000's lbs of fuel pouring out.
but a few seeps from here and there...well, whatever.
My point about the civvy pax was - what the hell do they know?
I travel on coaches and ships regularly and I am not going to curtail my journey if I see a small fluid leak whilst boarding...I am not an insider on the coach/ferry version of pprune and therefore have no concept of the associated risk.
No I would not get on board if I could see 1000's lbs of fuel pouring out.
but a few seeps from here and there...well, whatever.
My point about the civvy pax was - what the hell do they know?
I travel on coaches and ships regularly and I am not going to curtail my journey if I see a small fluid leak whilst boarding...I am not an insider on the coach/ferry version of pprune and therefore have no concept of the associated risk.
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But surely common sense would see anyone with a healthy sense of self preservation at least having the common sense to ask what the leak was, after all it could be the beginning of a major hydraulic or mechanical failure.
My 20 odd years of flying have taught me that there are no stupid questions and that in general things of a mechanical nature are not supposed to leak, hence it would only be natural to make sure all was ok.........or would you advocate I stick my head in the sand and simply climb on board and hope for the best
My 20 odd years of flying have taught me that there are no stupid questions and that in general things of a mechanical nature are not supposed to leak, hence it would only be natural to make sure all was ok.........or would you advocate I stick my head in the sand and simply climb on board and hope for the best
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Camelspydder
"I suspect that 99% of statistics published on this thread are made up on the spot"!
I think you will see if you take the time to look, that DV and myself usually put links on to backup our statistics.
Your reply to Seldomfitforpurpose's question "After all only an idiot would get into and fly in an aircraft that had a fuel leak" was "OK I'm an idiot... I do it every day"
So you admit that everyday you fly in a/c that have fuel leaks then!!
Then appear to chastise those who point out these a/c leak like sieves.
If you want to risk it then thats fine, but if others don't then thats fine too.
"I suspect that 99% of statistics published on this thread are made up on the spot"!
I think you will see if you take the time to look, that DV and myself usually put links on to backup our statistics.
Your reply to Seldomfitforpurpose's question "After all only an idiot would get into and fly in an aircraft that had a fuel leak" was "OK I'm an idiot... I do it every day"
So you admit that everyday you fly in a/c that have fuel leaks then!!
Then appear to chastise those who point out these a/c leak like sieves.
If you want to risk it then thats fine, but if others don't then thats fine too.
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did you hear about the 43 pax who refused to fly on an airliner out of ADN last week because there was fuel dripping off of the wing.
I bet they'd all watched PANORAMA too!!
I bet they'd all watched PANORAMA too!!
My point about the civvy pax was - what the hell do they know?
British Midland, 1989, engine failure and crash on the M1, remember that ? Some of the passengers and cabin crew felt that the crew may have shut down the wrong engine based on PA announcements and what they could see out of the window. They didn't say anyhting because they thought the crew knew best !
Ever read accident reports Camel ? and I don't just mean the RAF version. I remember someone once saying, that everyone involved in aviation should read as many incident/accident reports as they can.
S_H
Last edited by Safety_Helmut; 4th Jul 2007 at 22:18.
“I travel on coaches and ships regularly……”
Coaches will gracefully stop. Ships will float. Aircraft will…………
Seldomfit…
“My 20 odd years of flying have taught me that there are no stupid questions”
Absolutely spot on.
Camelspyyder, I agree it’s your decision whether to fly or not. But I’d be asking SENGO, or whoever, what his criteria was for acceptable leaks and where that guidance came from. A “can do” attitude can be taken too far, and often has the effect of hiding problems.
Coaches will gracefully stop. Ships will float. Aircraft will…………
Seldomfit…
“My 20 odd years of flying have taught me that there are no stupid questions”
Absolutely spot on.
Camelspyyder, I agree it’s your decision whether to fly or not. But I’d be asking SENGO, or whoever, what his criteria was for acceptable leaks and where that guidance came from. A “can do” attitude can be taken too far, and often has the effect of hiding problems.
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Base on his contributions so far, I reckon Camelspyyder is better able to decide what to do with a fuel leak than a SEngO would be. Its not about can-do, its about knowledge. We cannot demand perfect aircraft, so have to trust our specialists to make the right decisions. These are people on the front line, probably more concerned for the safety of the aircrew than the aircrew themselves. There is no way that aircrew would be sent airborne in a jet known to be hazardous. Yes, there is task driven pressure from people high up (thats their job) but those taskers can never force either a tradesman to sign a deferrment or prevent an air eng from raising a no-go fault.
The point was made by camelspyyder that there are safe leaks and there are not-safe leaks and they will all be treated appropriately. I completely agree with him.
The point was made by camelspyyder that there are safe leaks and there are not-safe leaks and they will all be treated appropriately. I completely agree with him.
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Camelspyyder
Might I ask you what aircraft you fly everyday that have fuel leaks?
Might I also ask why, presuming you report these fuel leaks to the engineers, you are not making a stand and refusing to fly? (I'm asuming they arn't fixing the leaks)
I am reluctant to pass judgement on you (especially after some of the posts on here) but 'irresponsible' seems to rings a bell. Do you fly with a crew and are you the captain? If so, then don't you feel that you have duty of care to the rest of your crew?
To openly admit that you fly an aircraft with those kind of problems every day is the most absurd thing I think I have ever read here. To brush them off as a 'nothing' is crass stupidity.
As for the civvie pax - well let me just say that if anyone popinted out something to me that they were unhappy about and didn't look right, I would take it seriously and check it. Aircraft are NOT designed to leak fuel on the ground (unless its an SR-71 or such like) To ignore it is again stupid and irresponsible. Well done to the pax!
Might I ask you what aircraft you fly everyday that have fuel leaks?
Might I also ask why, presuming you report these fuel leaks to the engineers, you are not making a stand and refusing to fly? (I'm asuming they arn't fixing the leaks)
I am reluctant to pass judgement on you (especially after some of the posts on here) but 'irresponsible' seems to rings a bell. Do you fly with a crew and are you the captain? If so, then don't you feel that you have duty of care to the rest of your crew?
To openly admit that you fly an aircraft with those kind of problems every day is the most absurd thing I think I have ever read here. To brush them off as a 'nothing' is crass stupidity.
As for the civvie pax - well let me just say that if anyone popinted out something to me that they were unhappy about and didn't look right, I would take it seriously and check it. Aircraft are NOT designed to leak fuel on the ground (unless its an SR-71 or such like) To ignore it is again stupid and irresponsible. Well done to the pax!
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Some of these Civvy leaks/discharges can certainly look alarming to the average passenger ....... 
http://www.alphafloor.net/aviation/n...ouvelair-8.jpg
http://www.alphafloor.net/aviation/n...ouvelair-8.jpg
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Aircraft fuel leaks are commonplace. For Nimrod there is a specific authority written down which describes the type of leak, the amount of leakage permitted and identifies areas where no leakage is permitted. There is no grey area on this! They are generally only minor leaks but still have to be documented for information/rectification. Camelspyyder is absolutely correct. He probably does fly in a leaking jet every day ( well, when he does actually get a jet to fly! ). Take a look at any of the aircraft F700s and you'll see the description, location and frequency of inspection for these minor leaks. They are not taken lightly and are carefully monitored. When the captain of the aircraft signs for it to go flying, he should be aware of these leaks ( ADF log ) as should all concerned.
To describe the jet as "leaking like a sieve" is total nonsense! No aircraft will go flying with a known fuel leak which has not been assessed. All known leaks are carefully inspected by competent tradesmen and any deferment for repair is considered thoroughly before allowing the aircraft to fly.
To describe the jet as "leaking like a sieve" is total nonsense! No aircraft will go flying with a known fuel leak which has not been assessed. All known leaks are carefully inspected by competent tradesmen and any deferment for repair is considered thoroughly before allowing the aircraft to fly.
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NimAGE139
I have evidence of one a/c operating in the Gulf XV***having 3 serious leaks in 2 months
Dec 06 Evidence of fuel was found under the mid port side of the bomb bay and under the rear fuselage pannier.
Problem: Unknown
Jan 07 Evidence of fuel was found under the mid port side of the bomb bay and under the rear fuselage L pannier.
Problem: Seal failure of coupling on 5 tank feed.
Jan 07 Evidence of fuel was found under the mid port side of the bomb bay and under the rear fuselage pannier.
Problem:2 Fuel feed coupling leaks
Same a/c leaking fuel into the Bomb Bay after AAR .
SOUNDS VERY FAMILAR TO ME
I have evidence of one a/c operating in the Gulf XV***having 3 serious leaks in 2 months
Dec 06 Evidence of fuel was found under the mid port side of the bomb bay and under the rear fuselage pannier.
Problem: Unknown
Jan 07 Evidence of fuel was found under the mid port side of the bomb bay and under the rear fuselage L pannier.
Problem: Seal failure of coupling on 5 tank feed.
Jan 07 Evidence of fuel was found under the mid port side of the bomb bay and under the rear fuselage pannier.
Problem:2 Fuel feed coupling leaks
Same a/c leaking fuel into the Bomb Bay after AAR .
SOUNDS VERY FAMILAR TO ME
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Sorry AGE but I must point out the flaw in your logic.
"We had also heard that there was an eye witness account, from a Harrier, of the fire, mid air explosion and subsequent crash. Don't know if HUD footage or any onboard camera recorded the accident. However, we had heard that the fire was at the starboard wing root area of the ac.
Now, there is a fuel pipe in that area which is used in AAR to refuel one of the internal fuselage tanks. Further, on inspection of another ac in theatre a small hole was found in the pipe. The pipe is welded to several brackets which are themselves attached to the supporting rib wall and the hole was close to one of the welds.
It is not uncommon for there to be pressure spikes during the refuelling process as refuel valves are closed elsewhere during the process. It is possible that repeated pressure spikes or repeated applications of normal pressure during either ground refuelling or AAR might have lead to the weakening of the weld and the subsequent hole. Atomised fuel could then escape into the space.
The hole in the pipework of the other AAR Nimrod was only discovered after the crash of XV230. Welding is still a technique used on the pipework of MRA4. You cannot assume that a leaking aircraft is safe.
"We had also heard that there was an eye witness account, from a Harrier, of the fire, mid air explosion and subsequent crash. Don't know if HUD footage or any onboard camera recorded the accident. However, we had heard that the fire was at the starboard wing root area of the ac.
Now, there is a fuel pipe in that area which is used in AAR to refuel one of the internal fuselage tanks. Further, on inspection of another ac in theatre a small hole was found in the pipe. The pipe is welded to several brackets which are themselves attached to the supporting rib wall and the hole was close to one of the welds.
It is not uncommon for there to be pressure spikes during the refuelling process as refuel valves are closed elsewhere during the process. It is possible that repeated pressure spikes or repeated applications of normal pressure during either ground refuelling or AAR might have lead to the weakening of the weld and the subsequent hole. Atomised fuel could then escape into the space.
The hole in the pipework of the other AAR Nimrod was only discovered after the crash of XV230. Welding is still a technique used on the pipework of MRA4. You cannot assume that a leaking aircraft is safe.
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In defence of AGE (although no doubt he is perfectly capable of replying himself), he said:
This applies to all aircraft I have been associated with, there is even a seperate AP which is devoted to the description. assessment and categorisation of leaks. Similarly with hyd systems, these decisions are not made lightly and if the opportunity arises the defect will be rectified, however there is a balance to be struck, which is one of the reasons for the Acceptable Deferred Faults log, it does what it says on the tin, acknowledging a problem, describing it, ensuring replacement parts if applicable are on order and providing a time and calendar limitation, additional inspections etc. In general most of these leaks are found and accepted because they are guided overboard by drains for that purpose. Where fluids leak into a compartment however I don't recall any instance of that being acceptable (happy to be corrected on that).
there is a specific authority written down which describes the type of leak, the amount of leakage permitted and identifies areas where no leakage is permitted. There is no grey area
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The Airbus above is venting not leaking.
All aircraft have a leakage schedule. There is no grey area eather mil or civvy. Any Air Eng/Flight Eng or Pilot worth his salt wouldn't take an unservicable aircraft. We need to be very careful with terms like "Leaking like a sieve". Some do but it's within design limits. Others may be outside limits. Thats why both ground and flight crew are trained to recognise and asses leaks and should know what the limits are or how to find them.
All aircraft have a leakage schedule. There is no grey area eather mil or civvy. Any Air Eng/Flight Eng or Pilot worth his salt wouldn't take an unservicable aircraft. We need to be very careful with terms like "Leaking like a sieve". Some do but it's within design limits. Others may be outside limits. Thats why both ground and flight crew are trained to recognise and asses leaks and should know what the limits are or how to find them.
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FE Hoppy & NimAGE139
I would be happy to send you some of the information I have on the fuel leaks if you pm me your email addresses. They are not minor leaks they are reported leaks, and yes the a/c wasn't leaking when it took off. They had leaked after their sortie and after AAR just like XV230 did.
In one of these reports http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/nirmrodreport1.pdf
VC-10 offloads 42,900 lbs Nimrod uplift 36,000 lbs.
There is a discrepancy of 6,900 lbs of fuel.
http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/nimrodreport2.pdf
I have plenty of proof they "LEAK LIKE SIEVES"
52 reported leaks in Nimrods in the 6 months leading up to the crash, and numerous leaks occurring in Nimrods after AAR since the crash.
I would be happy to send you some of the information I have on the fuel leaks if you pm me your email addresses. They are not minor leaks they are reported leaks, and yes the a/c wasn't leaking when it took off. They had leaked after their sortie and after AAR just like XV230 did.
In one of these reports http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/nirmrodreport1.pdf
VC-10 offloads 42,900 lbs Nimrod uplift 36,000 lbs.
There is a discrepancy of 6,900 lbs of fuel.
http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/nimrodreport2.pdf
I have plenty of proof they "LEAK LIKE SIEVES"
52 reported leaks in Nimrods in the 6 months leading up to the crash, and numerous leaks occurring in Nimrods after AAR since the crash.
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Tapper's dad,
Your evidence of leaks found on aircraft operating in the gulf is testament to the fact that they were investigated and where possible, rectified. Not leaking and being allowed to go flying again! It happens every day and has done for years. We find leaks and we fix them or deal with it accordingly.
Unfortunately, AAR refuelling is just that. Carried out in flight. How can the pipes be checked post AAR?
Nigegilb,
There is no flaw in my logic. I am not advocating that flight with a fuel leak is safe. Aircraft go flying with known leaks, assessed and accepted as such. Anything which occurs during flight (AAR) uses refuel gallery pipework that is otherwise redundant. How do you expect anyone to find a fuel leak in a pipe, on the ground, that contains no fuel? That defies logic.
All leaks found on the ground will be dealt with. I don't believe that anyone would say otherwise.
I agree that the most likely cause of the demise of XV230 was almost certainly due to a fuel fire but who's to say it was started from an initial fuel leak. SCP ducting passes very close to the area where the flames were sighted coming from the aircraft. What if 230 degree C air was to be blasted from a broken duct against a fuel pipe/tank? Sound familiar?
I just hope we get to the root of the problem and resolve it for everyone's sake.
Your evidence of leaks found on aircraft operating in the gulf is testament to the fact that they were investigated and where possible, rectified. Not leaking and being allowed to go flying again! It happens every day and has done for years. We find leaks and we fix them or deal with it accordingly.
Unfortunately, AAR refuelling is just that. Carried out in flight. How can the pipes be checked post AAR?
Nigegilb,
There is no flaw in my logic. I am not advocating that flight with a fuel leak is safe. Aircraft go flying with known leaks, assessed and accepted as such. Anything which occurs during flight (AAR) uses refuel gallery pipework that is otherwise redundant. How do you expect anyone to find a fuel leak in a pipe, on the ground, that contains no fuel? That defies logic.
All leaks found on the ground will be dealt with. I don't believe that anyone would say otherwise.
I agree that the most likely cause of the demise of XV230 was almost certainly due to a fuel fire but who's to say it was started from an initial fuel leak. SCP ducting passes very close to the area where the flames were sighted coming from the aircraft. What if 230 degree C air was to be blasted from a broken duct against a fuel pipe/tank? Sound familiar?
I just hope we get to the root of the problem and resolve it for everyone's sake.
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Camelspyyder
Might I ask you what aircraft you fly everyday that have fuel leaks?
Might I also ask why, presuming you report these fuel leaks to the engineers, you are not making a stand and refusing to fly? (I'm asuming they arn't fixing the leaks)
I am reluctant to pass judgement on you (especially after some of the posts on here) but 'irresponsible' seems to rings a bell. Do you fly with a crew and are you the captain? If so, then don't you feel that you have duty of care to the rest of your crew?
To openly admit that you fly an aircraft with those kind of problems every day is the most absurd thing I think I have ever read here. To brush them off as a 'nothing' is crass stupidity.
Might I ask you what aircraft you fly everyday that have fuel leaks?
Might I also ask why, presuming you report these fuel leaks to the engineers, you are not making a stand and refusing to fly? (I'm asuming they arn't fixing the leaks)
I am reluctant to pass judgement on you (especially after some of the posts on here) but 'irresponsible' seems to rings a bell. Do you fly with a crew and are you the captain? If so, then don't you feel that you have duty of care to the rest of your crew?
To openly admit that you fly an aircraft with those kind of problems every day is the most absurd thing I think I have ever read here. To brush them off as a 'nothing' is crass stupidity.
If you bothered to read back over his posts you would realise that he is a current Nimrod mate
Yes - our AC have leaks.
No - We don't ignore them as nothing, as has been previously stated they are all assessed on an individual basis.
No - We don't let our 'stupidity' cloud our better judgement and climb aboard an unsafe AC.
I have nearly 5000Hrs on type and in all my time the AC have always had a fuel leak/seep map. Trust me I wouldn't fly if I had serious doubts and at the moment I'm happy to earn the wage I'm paid by flying on the old girl.
Please Winco, stop the personal attacks or if you are unable take it elsewhere.
Regards to All,
DA