Nimrod Information
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Recommendation
A maintenance policy should be instigated for the ruptured duct and all similar ducts.
Action Taken
A study into the need for a preventative maintenance/lifing policy for this and similar ducts has been concluded by the Designer (BAE Systems).
A maintenance policy should be instigated for the ruptured duct and all similar ducts.
Action Taken
A study into the need for a preventative maintenance/lifing policy for this and similar ducts has been concluded by the Designer (BAE Systems).
Last edited by AC Ovee; 30th Jun 2007 at 15:37. Reason: typo errors
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FG, completely understand where you are coming from. Aircrew are paid to take risks, it goes with the job. I have taken plenty and my former colleagues have had some unbelievable escapes in recent months. That said, just the other day an old friend took me by the side and thanked me, most sincerely for forcing the issue over "J" foam. He was off to Afg in a couple of days and he quietly made the point that Herc crews and crucially their families were much happier about the situation on the Herc. Someone made the point on this thread that the families of aircrew at Kinloss were unhappy about all the scaremongering. Believe me, the way to fix that unhappiness is to spend the money, invest in safety and some of the anxiety will go away. Since XV179, the Herc community suffered 2 more aircraft losses. This argument is all about preventing further loss. I have no doubt that Kinloss crews will continue to fly, that is what makes the RAF special, but the leadership must realise that taking unnecessary risk on behalf of their men, might save money but is fundamentally, immoral.
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It is commendable that our aircrews are happy to take risks when they fly, but MoD has a responsibility for the civilian population they fly over. Can you imagine the carnage if XV227 or XV230 had gone down on "finals" over Morayshire.
DV
DV
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
At least the minister responsible for defence and for Scotland is one and the same.
Misleading journalism!
The Times article BEagle has placed a link to states:
"......A Harrier aircraft followed the aircraft down and saw the starboard wing explode first, followed a few seconds later by the rest of the aircraft. The base commander said in the inquiry report that more such incidents were likely to occur because the Nimrod was 10 years past its “out of service” date. “The unexpected failure should be ever at the forefront of our minds,” he said......"
My understanding of the sequence of events is that the "base commander" in question is a previous Stn Cdr, and his comments are in relation to the incident with XV227 - indeed they are part of the report into the incident. HIS COMMENTS WERE MADE BEFORE THE TRAGIC LOSS OF XV230! By writing his article the way he has the journalist has DELIBERATELY (apparently/allegedly, etc) created the impression that the statement was made in relation to the loss of XV230 - cheap shot and misleading!
The statement of the Stn Cdr in question is perfectly valid, I am not trying to dispute that, and of relevance to the debate, but there was no need to DELIBERATELY (it would appear to me/allegedly, etc) use it out of context.
I stand ready to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable than myself!
"......A Harrier aircraft followed the aircraft down and saw the starboard wing explode first, followed a few seconds later by the rest of the aircraft. The base commander said in the inquiry report that more such incidents were likely to occur because the Nimrod was 10 years past its “out of service” date. “The unexpected failure should be ever at the forefront of our minds,” he said......"
My understanding of the sequence of events is that the "base commander" in question is a previous Stn Cdr, and his comments are in relation to the incident with XV227 - indeed they are part of the report into the incident. HIS COMMENTS WERE MADE BEFORE THE TRAGIC LOSS OF XV230! By writing his article the way he has the journalist has DELIBERATELY (apparently/allegedly, etc) created the impression that the statement was made in relation to the loss of XV230 - cheap shot and misleading!
The statement of the Stn Cdr in question is perfectly valid, I am not trying to dispute that, and of relevance to the debate, but there was no need to DELIBERATELY (it would appear to me/allegedly, etc) use it out of context.
I stand ready to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable than myself!
Biggus, I read it exactly the same way you do - scandoulous journalistic reporting yet again. More so since they're mis-quoting themselves from last week!
Whilst I applaud the efforts to get the truth and to improve the safety for our colleagues who continue to fly, this kind of thing does not help the friends and families of those tragically lost on XV230 nor of those still flying on operations.
I know there is scepticism on BOIs but having spoken to presidents of 2 other BOIs they stood by their comments and findings and would not change things despite pressure from the top, and I honestly believe the same will come of the BOI into XV230.
My thoughts and prayers continue to be with the relatives and friends of crew 3. I was there when it happened, and know how it feels.
Whilst I applaud the efforts to get the truth and to improve the safety for our colleagues who continue to fly, this kind of thing does not help the friends and families of those tragically lost on XV230 nor of those still flying on operations.
I know there is scepticism on BOIs but having spoken to presidents of 2 other BOIs they stood by their comments and findings and would not change things despite pressure from the top, and I honestly believe the same will come of the BOI into XV230.
My thoughts and prayers continue to be with the relatives and friends of crew 3. I was there when it happened, and know how it feels.
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I have read Mick Smith's article, and I agree it can give the wrong impression, but I would not call it DELIBERATE or SCANDALOUS. Mick Smith has done some great work in trying to uncover the truth and keep the accident in the public eye, and at worst I would say that the section referred to in the previous postings was simply ambiguous.
What is Deliberate and Scandalous is the information put out this week to the families that all the recommendations made by the XV227 Inquiry Board have been carried. And it is also Scandalous that they haven't.
By the way I understand that the Station Commander who signed off on the XV227 report, and was still in charge when XV230 was lost, has left the service to fly with "Eastern". Is that Deliberate, or Scandalous?
DV
What is Deliberate and Scandalous is the information put out this week to the families that all the recommendations made by the XV227 Inquiry Board have been carried. And it is also Scandalous that they haven't.
By the way I understand that the Station Commander who signed off on the XV227 report, and was still in charge when XV230 was lost, has left the service to fly with "Eastern". Is that Deliberate, or Scandalous?
DV
Last edited by Distant Voice; 1st Jul 2007 at 12:34.
30mRad, I am sure that your ex BOI presidents are being entirely sincere in their beliefs that their findings were sound. The problem is that of "stove piping" highlighted by Tucumseh. The basic principle of Flight Safety, is that "everyone knows what anyone knows". My experience of RAF flight safety stems from some 40 years ago, but is perhaps all the more instructive for that. Great emphasis was put on dissemination, at Squadron, Ops Wing, Station and Command level, using locally and centrally produced newsletters, magazines, film flashes, posters, etc to make everyone aware that Flight Safety concerned them, be they cooks, bottle washers or CinCs! No one was allowed to use rank or influence to obstruct this knowledge, either up or down. I used to be a right pain (as Sqn FSO) by collecting FOD off the apron and dumping it on the OC Ops Wg's desk, albeit in a bin liner (the FOD, not the OC Ops Wg or me), saying that I believed it all belonged to him. "Point taken", he would say between gritted teeth. And that point was everyone had a duty to ensure Flight Safety, not because we were all Cold War wimps, but so that when it became a Hot War we would have a force largely intact, rather than whittled away by "isolated incidents", to quote the CAS. Now we learn from Tucumseh that this culture has been stopped in its tracks for the last 16 years by obstructing the funding for the necessary modifications required for known deficiencies discovered by incident/occurrence reporting or ultimately by BoIs, and that furthermore the free dissemination of information within the system, fundamental to its working, is obstructed by "stove piping". That is why I no longer have faith in BoIs, because what their Presidents should have been advised, of what was already known, was not always revealed.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 1st Jul 2007 at 13:28. Reason: wrong attribution
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Wake up and smell the coffee
I guess u guys missed my point.
Yes 12(14) of us died. (AND WE WILL NEVER FORGET THEM)
However there are still 2-300 of us who still fly these things on a voluntary basis.
and still you all are scaring the **** out of our loved ones with all your speculative rubbish and possibly half-true facts.
Why dont you just email each other all your rumours, half-truths and lies
and let the rest of us get on with it - which is our own choice - and do our job. It is so much easier to get on with it when your family are not panicked by every post they read on PPRUNE.
this is a public forum.
consider the feelings of the public who read it.
Dell.
Yes 12(14) of us died. (AND WE WILL NEVER FORGET THEM)
However there are still 2-300 of us who still fly these things on a voluntary basis.
and still you all are scaring the **** out of our loved ones with all your speculative rubbish and possibly half-true facts.
Why dont you just email each other all your rumours, half-truths and lies
and let the rest of us get on with it - which is our own choice - and do our job. It is so much easier to get on with it when your family are not panicked by every post they read on PPRUNE.
this is a public forum.
consider the feelings of the public who read it.
Dell.
No, CS, you have made your point clearly and succinctly in previous posts. I can only speak for myself when I say that I have the greatest respect for yourself and your comrades manning the thin red line while the likes of I enjoy the freedoms that you defend on our behalf. I take your point that keeping this topic going may cause distress, not only to NOK, but clearly to you and your colleagues. I would not contribute if that were the only effect, but I honestly believe that the paymasters must be made to loosen the purse strings so that what should be done will be done. Nigegilb has shown that it can be done, but it takes a lot of effort and pressure to do that. The ESF thread on this forum undoubtedly aided the success of that campaign, and a lot of the knowledge gained is surely directly applicable here. As with the Hercules tragedy, NOK directly involving themselves in such a campaign infuse it with enormous moral authority, and I commend and applaud TD for his efforts. Having left the RAF some 34 years ago I had not realised the tremendous changes that it has gone through in that time, until reading the many threads here. Many of those changes are, IMHO, for the worse and invariably due to financial strictures. So I have indeed had to wake up and smell the coffee and found it's flavour distinctly bitter. Of course I realise that much here is unrepresentative and should at best be taken with large dollops of salt, but there are some here who shine through and whom I trust. To mention but two; Nigegilb, because his actions alone are his bona fides. Tucumseh because so much of this situation was created not by the RAF but at the MOD, of which I (mercifully) have no direct experience and he has, and is prepared to share that with us and shine a light into some murky corners. If we are wise we should study what he shows us. For myself it is a privilege to post on this forum which I try not to usurp. I am sure that the great majority that post here do so sincerely and knowing the pain that is felt by those who have lost loved ones and friends. If we have but one thing in common it is surely the wish that others should be spared such pain in the future.
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Chug -thank you for the sympathetic hearing.
more often than not i get flamed on PPRUNE and i have to change my id on a regular basis, since the regular posters are not happy to have anyone challenge the resident point of view.
It makes me sad when persons so remote from my base can be judged to be authorities on what happens here, even though many of them are 20 or 30 years behind the times. It is even more sad that posters like TD and Da4orce are sucking up everything they are told in these forums because they think we are all authorities on what is happening.
I'll say it for the last time.
If you haveFACTS at hand which will help people, then go ahead and post. If you have only rumour or heresay then forget it!!
Dell
It makes me sad when persons so remote from my base can be judged to be authorities on what happens here, even though many of them are 20 or 30 years behind the times. It is even more sad that posters like TD and Da4orce are sucking up everything they are told in these forums because they think we are all authorities on what is happening.
I'll say it for the last time.
If you haveFACTS at hand which will help people, then go ahead and post. If you have only rumour or heresay then forget it!!
Dell
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camelspyyder wrote:
There's an easy answer to to your problem, stop your family from reading pprune, after all it is a rumour forum so if nobody can post rumours then it pretty much makes the site useless. 
I guess u guys missed my point.
Yes 12(14) of us died. (AND WE WILL NEVER FORGET THEM)
However there are still 2-300 of us who still fly these things on a voluntary basis.
and still you all are scaring the **** out of our loved ones with all your speculative rubbish and possibly half-true facts.
Why dont you just email each other all your rumours, half-truths and lies
and let the rest of us get on with it - which is our own choice - and do our job. It is so much easier to get on with it when your family are not panicked by every post they read on PPRUNE.
this is a public forum.
consider the feelings of the public who read it.
Dell.
Yes 12(14) of us died. (AND WE WILL NEVER FORGET THEM)
However there are still 2-300 of us who still fly these things on a voluntary basis.
and still you all are scaring the **** out of our loved ones with all your speculative rubbish and possibly half-true facts.
Why dont you just email each other all your rumours, half-truths and lies
and let the rest of us get on with it - which is our own choice - and do our job. It is so much easier to get on with it when your family are not panicked by every post they read on PPRUNE.
this is a public forum.
consider the feelings of the public who read it.
Dell.
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It is even more sad that posters like TD and Da4orce are sucking up everything they are told in these forums because they think we are all authorities on what is happening.
have !!!!
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Winco
In order to clarify matters...
"Did you read what it was inresponce to? clearly not!"
I most certainly did. You provided the aforementioned personal insult to someone who's fundemental comment was that he was only in the armed forces for the money (to pay the Mortgage).
Mind you, that was not your best, in my oppinion,
"...go away and stop being an annoying little jerk..."
is one of your better efforts
Please don't get personal on me, there's a good chap.... and yes, I did read what your 'annoying little jerk' insult was inresponce to.
"Did you read what it was inresponce to? clearly not!"
I most certainly did. You provided the aforementioned personal insult to someone who's fundemental comment was that he was only in the armed forces for the money (to pay the Mortgage).
Mind you, that was not your best, in my oppinion,
"...go away and stop being an annoying little jerk..."
is one of your better efforts
Please don't get personal on me, there's a good chap.... and yes, I did read what your 'annoying little jerk' insult was inresponce to.
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OK WW
You win....I give up with you.
Keep on dragging up all the old dirt, and stirring things up, but I'm afraid I don't have the time to deal with your silliness anymore.
The Winco
You win....I give up with you.
Keep on dragging up all the old dirt, and stirring things up, but I'm afraid I don't have the time to deal with your silliness anymore.
The Winco
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I win :rolleyes:
Defending myself against your false accusations is hardly silly.
I stirred nothing up. Your chum / alter ego TSM did that. I have only responded to your accusations to clarify matters. The fundamentals of which are that some experienced (current) Nimrod Aircrew have been insulted in this thread. There is no need for such silly, immature behavior. If one has a point to make in this forum it can be done without getting personal.
The chaps and chapesses operating the Nimrod fleet should be given as much support as possible. They are doing a fantastic job in hard times. Insulting them on here is just not on (IMHO).
I stirred nothing up. Your chum / alter ego TSM did that. I have only responded to your accusations to clarify matters. The fundamentals of which are that some experienced (current) Nimrod Aircrew have been insulted in this thread. There is no need for such silly, immature behavior. If one has a point to make in this forum it can be done without getting personal.
The chaps and chapesses operating the Nimrod fleet should be given as much support as possible. They are doing a fantastic job in hard times. Insulting them on here is just not on (IMHO).