AAC Flying Pay change
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Still nothing heard on the grapevine - nor should we expect to I guess....
Anyone notice on the 'Policy letter' that the AFPRB is due to review P1 and P2 pay in 2008....
You can guarantee what will happen!
The AFPRB will report that it is barking to have different rates of pay for doing the same job across all three services.
So they will probably get rid of P2 and bring AAC flying pay policy into line and pay us the same as....errrr..... everyone else…..
Of course, all of us seen off after the 'correction' of mid-rate flying pay will not then have this changed back and still have to wait an additional 2/3 years until 2009/10/11 to get put onto middle-rate.
Sigh.............
Anyone notice on the 'Policy letter' that the AFPRB is due to review P1 and P2 pay in 2008....
You can guarantee what will happen!
The AFPRB will report that it is barking to have different rates of pay for doing the same job across all three services.
So they will probably get rid of P2 and bring AAC flying pay policy into line and pay us the same as....errrr..... everyone else…..
Of course, all of us seen off after the 'correction' of mid-rate flying pay will not then have this changed back and still have to wait an additional 2/3 years until 2009/10/11 to get put onto middle-rate.
Sigh.............
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Too Little, Too Late...
Pongochap,
I feel that any measures taken now to rectify this sorry affair will be too little, too late. As you say, there will still be those who lose out whatever action is taken. Unfortunately the damage already appears to have been done to steel the resolve of many who will pick their moment and leave when it suits them. Good on them too. And with them will go a large chunk of experience and expertise
. Army Aviation now faces an uncertain future and I for one am sorry to see it come to this 
.
I feel that any measures taken now to rectify this sorry affair will be too little, too late. As you say, there will still be those who lose out whatever action is taken. Unfortunately the damage already appears to have been done to steel the resolve of many who will pick their moment and leave when it suits them. Good on them too. And with them will go a large chunk of experience and expertise
. Army Aviation now faces an uncertain future and I for one am sorry to see it come to this .
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A friend who is in the same position recently told me about some of the things he is got going on in the back of all this regarding legal advice so standby for some updates shortly.
He also brough out a very good point that the Pay Warrant stated that having completed 9 yrs service you went onto P2 middle after 3 years. If you then got Ac Comd at the 4 1/2 yr point (year and half later) you remained on P2 middle until 4 years had been completed (marking time as P1 intial not as much as P2 middle). Therefore this reflects the 7 year point at which you would have moved onto P1 middle (7-11) for 4 years and then P1 higher at the 11 year point and enhanced at the 15 year point. This is what they have now said the regulations state so therefore some of the dates that DAAvn sent out are actually incorrect IAW the pay warrant that has been mis read for the last x amount of years. Interesting thoughts and work it out for yourselves so there is at least something we can get back.
He also brough out a very good point that the Pay Warrant stated that having completed 9 yrs service you went onto P2 middle after 3 years. If you then got Ac Comd at the 4 1/2 yr point (year and half later) you remained on P2 middle until 4 years had been completed (marking time as P1 intial not as much as P2 middle). Therefore this reflects the 7 year point at which you would have moved onto P1 middle (7-11) for 4 years and then P1 higher at the 11 year point and enhanced at the 15 year point. This is what they have now said the regulations state so therefore some of the dates that DAAvn sent out are actually incorrect IAW the pay warrant that has been mis read for the last x amount of years. Interesting thoughts and work it out for yourselves so there is at least something we can get back.
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I thought there was no shortage of Lynx pilots due to the cutbacks in the fleet announced in 2005?
Either way, it's something else that's pushed me over the edge. Top level 'management' being one of them.
I'll hopefully be working for a service which values its aircrew and recognises that training them is costly and time consuming.
Either way, it's something else that's pushed me over the edge. Top level 'management' being one of them.
I'll hopefully be working for a service which values its aircrew and recognises that training them is costly and time consuming.
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Eight Eights Blue,
unfortunately you have to read the wording that was in the pay warrant and JSP752 which is NOW very clear. It actually says after 3/4 years on the "preceeding" rate and of course, subject to the completion of 9 years service. The issue with the Army isn't how long you've been in receipt of a particular rate, more, how you ended up on that rate in the first place .
It does clearly state that after 4 years on the preceeding rate you are entitled to move onto the next pay band so I've no idea how they'll be able to justify people marking time for 5, 6 or 7 years until the system catches up
.
In a new twist, it would appear that our Aviation Crewman, some of whom have been on a 3 tier system have also been incorrectly paid and are now about to all move onto a flat rate which amounts to less than a fiver a day. Again, where is the incentive for our young groudcrew to advance into instructor roles etc. The novelty soon wears off at which point it'll become harder to retain the experience that's been accumulated and that we could all benefit from in the future. Beginning to see a pattern?
unfortunately you have to read the wording that was in the pay warrant and JSP752 which is NOW very clear. It actually says after 3/4 years on the "preceeding" rate and of course, subject to the completion of 9 years service. The issue with the Army isn't how long you've been in receipt of a particular rate, more, how you ended up on that rate in the first place
.It does clearly state that after 4 years on the preceeding rate you are entitled to move onto the next pay band so I've no idea how they'll be able to justify people marking time for 5, 6 or 7 years until the system catches up
.In a new twist, it would appear that our Aviation Crewman, some of whom have been on a 3 tier system have also been incorrectly paid and are now about to all move onto a flat rate which amounts to less than a fiver a day. Again, where is the incentive for our young groudcrew to advance into instructor roles etc. The novelty soon wears off at which point it'll become harder to retain the experience that's been accumulated and that we could all benefit from in the future. Beginning to see a pattern?
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Well, the good news is that the AFPRB are visiting 9 Regt AAC at some point in the next few months (apparently this was already planned and not the result of any letters written by members of this board).
Still, this is a good chance to make our voices heard by people who really matter. Those of you who are at 9 Regt AAC MUST take this opportunity to explain the full consequence of this decision on your take-home pay and the effect this is having on your morale, and consequently on your desire to stay in for the long term.
The rest of the Corps is relying on you. Let us know how it goes.
Still, this is a good chance to make our voices heard by people who really matter. Those of you who are at 9 Regt AAC MUST take this opportunity to explain the full consequence of this decision on your take-home pay and the effect this is having on your morale, and consequently on your desire to stay in for the long term.
The rest of the Corps is relying on you. Let us know how it goes.
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Are they visiting before or after the AH crews have departed? Not that its important to me but I am curious if they will interview from across the board and not just Lynx drivers.
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My tag should give you a clue to what i do!
Just a quick line to say thanks to all the guys who have fought our corner, you know who you are. It's good to finally see our job getting the recognition it deserves. It looks like there's a light at the end of the tunnel. But i'll believe it when the cash is in the bank!
Just a quick line to say thanks to all the guys who have fought our corner, you know who you are. It's good to finally see our job getting the recognition it deserves. It looks like there's a light at the end of the tunnel. But i'll believe it when the cash is in the bank!
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It would be interesting to know exactly how many individuals have actually terminated their terms of service as a result of this. A lot of people on here keep hinting that they are going to "vote with their feet" but how many actually have.
I will start you of:
1. Me (RICON)
Ps. Eight Eights Blue: you need to concentrate more on getting prepared for this weekend rather than worrying about getting this thread to the front of the cue.
I will start you of:
1. Me (RICON)
Ps. Eight Eights Blue: you need to concentrate more on getting prepared for this weekend rather than worrying about getting this thread to the front of the cue.
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I have completed the training programme all culminating in a weekend of debauchery in a european capital and may I say that I did not impress myself too much.
However, the annual occasion this weekend always brings the best out in me and I will do my very best to uphold the true honoured traditions.
See you there or maybe NOT!!!!
However, the annual occasion this weekend always brings the best out in me and I will do my very best to uphold the true honoured traditions.
See you there or maybe NOT!!!!
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RICON
You have demonstrated perfectly why your lords and masters need do nothing more about this.
You've asked for some public support and asked others to display how disgusted you are with your feet and in three days you have not had a single reply to your battle cry.
The problem is that the AAC is overmanned with pilots and no matter what is thrown at you, you will not leave in your droves. Sorry guys, I reckon you're stuck with this one.
You have demonstrated perfectly why your lords and masters need do nothing more about this.
You've asked for some public support and asked others to display how disgusted you are with your feet and in three days you have not had a single reply to your battle cry.
The problem is that the AAC is overmanned with pilots and no matter what is thrown at you, you will not leave in your droves. Sorry guys, I reckon you're stuck with this one.
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AW i think you are right.
IF everyone is prepared to take and stick with the current constant changes that the AAC is dictating then that is their decission. This C/S however is not prepared to be bullied into changes which clearly state a difference between the 3 services in JHC, and accept the changes which have been made in order for the AAC to save money to supplement the Apache Fleet so as not to admit defeat and allow the RAF to take command of it. Afterall what else can this be for. It is surely not to sustain the Lynx Fleet which is hardly doing any flying (unless on detachment), or to sustain the Gazelle Fleet which is soon to winde down. Maybe its the Kingair, who knows. Maybe its the AAC 50th anneversary party or the next officers mess cocktail party at Middle Wallop. We will never know as it looks like no-one on here (or at DAAVN) in a higher appointment in the CoC is willing to give any sort of explanation as to why the AAC feels the need to ROB its pilots out of money they duely earn, especially with the amount of detachments and tours on-going at present.
I do understand that it is not practicle at the minute for most people to terminate due to family and finacial commitments, or lack of hours to Bridge, but how much more will people be prepared to accept before even they break.
Good luck gentlemen, I have already observed that the market in civillian street has a lot more to offer than 3 square meals a day and pennies to live on.
I hope all your day-dreams come true and this is resolved promtly for you all.
Ricon.
IF everyone is prepared to take and stick with the current constant changes that the AAC is dictating then that is their decission. This C/S however is not prepared to be bullied into changes which clearly state a difference between the 3 services in JHC, and accept the changes which have been made in order for the AAC to save money to supplement the Apache Fleet so as not to admit defeat and allow the RAF to take command of it. Afterall what else can this be for. It is surely not to sustain the Lynx Fleet which is hardly doing any flying (unless on detachment), or to sustain the Gazelle Fleet which is soon to winde down. Maybe its the Kingair, who knows. Maybe its the AAC 50th anneversary party or the next officers mess cocktail party at Middle Wallop. We will never know as it looks like no-one on here (or at DAAVN) in a higher appointment in the CoC is willing to give any sort of explanation as to why the AAC feels the need to ROB its pilots out of money they duely earn, especially with the amount of detachments and tours on-going at present.
I do understand that it is not practicle at the minute for most people to terminate due to family and finacial commitments, or lack of hours to Bridge, but how much more will people be prepared to accept before even they break.
Good luck gentlemen, I have already observed that the market in civillian street has a lot more to offer than 3 square meals a day and pennies to live on.
I hope all your day-dreams come true and this is resolved promtly for you all.
Ricon.
sorry - forgot to mention - I'm definitely going as this is the last straw, so it's civvy street for me. Will be signed off by end of the year. You're not alone Ricon!
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To be honest I think that the relative lack of interest here on PPRUNE is not indicative of the depth of feeling throughout the Corps. If anyone is using this thread as a measuring tool then real life will catch up sooner than they think.
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Ron,
Please do not think for one minute I was considering this thread as a measuring tool for the AAC. I understand that a serious minority of the AAC aircrew subscribe to this site, let alone read it.
I was purely trying to decipher between the amount of individuals (as members of this site) that have said they will “vote with their feet” and the actual amount of individuals that where willing to do so.
I have been a member of the AAC for the entire of my career, from A/Tpr through to Aircrew so I am not randomly stating feelings, which seem biased towards the AAC. I am purely stating MY feelings of discontent with the current situation and with over 2500hrs of flying experience so far I now feel my experience would be more beneficial and appreciated elsewhere. As I said, I was purely trying to indicate who else was in the same mindset.
I would also like to take this opportunity to address DAAVN himself (as we all know he reads this).
Tomo,
I seriously hope you do get the MBE/OBE you are graciously trying for (I do not know and do not really care what honours you currently hold as these are unimportant to me in the current climates of detachments and tours. To me you are an appointment not an individual).
I would not take this forum too seriously, as of now there have been 11,721 views of the thread but yet only 158 posts. As any good pilot should be able to tell you this is a poor percentage and at only 1.34% of posts per views I’m sure you will accept that this is well below the expected expenditure of pilots over the next 12 months.
Assuming of course that these views are ALL AAC, which it is seriously unlikely to be, I’m guessing that the 1.34% replies is unrealistic.
I believe you seriously need to decide which figure of terminations will be operationally acceptable and the amount of tasks you require the AAC to conduct in the future, and to which your fine organisation at Middle Wallop are producing such fine qualities of ground crew and aircrew. I for one firmly believe that the decisions being made in your department at present are far beyond what you are expecting in return from your Corps.
What the AAC needs is a leader and adviser in Aviation, who is willing to stand up and defend certain decisions such as arguments with the AFPRB to the current regulations regarding Specialist Pay (Flying) and the discrepancies between the 3 services regarding this pay, and not someone who considers “banning tomato ketchup in the officers mess” more important.
It will only be a matter of time before the press get wind of this situation, and understand the seriousness of Army Air Corps pilots deploying to places such as Iraq and Afghanistan when their total thought process is not on the job ahead.
People have planned and predicted future incomes on expenditures such as mortgages, children’s education etc. on the expected increment of Specialist Pay (Flying). The last thing that the British Army needs is a pilot on detachment worrying about financial matters back home, just because a certain individual has decided to change the criteria.
I believe an immediate response from you on this matter, and the current situation regarding manning, is well over due and should be acted on immediately to save embarrassment and future terminations.
Sir, I no longer remain your obedient servant,
RICON
Ps. If any of the Press wish to know exactly what is going on with the Army Air Corps flying pay situation then please PM me. I will not reply within 28 days from this date (30 May 2007), to wait for an acceptable reply (on this thread) from higher authority within MOD. Beyond that date I will happily inform any interested party on the current situation (except the SUN).
Please do not think for one minute I was considering this thread as a measuring tool for the AAC. I understand that a serious minority of the AAC aircrew subscribe to this site, let alone read it.
I was purely trying to decipher between the amount of individuals (as members of this site) that have said they will “vote with their feet” and the actual amount of individuals that where willing to do so.
I have been a member of the AAC for the entire of my career, from A/Tpr through to Aircrew so I am not randomly stating feelings, which seem biased towards the AAC. I am purely stating MY feelings of discontent with the current situation and with over 2500hrs of flying experience so far I now feel my experience would be more beneficial and appreciated elsewhere. As I said, I was purely trying to indicate who else was in the same mindset.
I would also like to take this opportunity to address DAAVN himself (as we all know he reads this).
Tomo,
I seriously hope you do get the MBE/OBE you are graciously trying for (I do not know and do not really care what honours you currently hold as these are unimportant to me in the current climates of detachments and tours. To me you are an appointment not an individual).
I would not take this forum too seriously, as of now there have been 11,721 views of the thread but yet only 158 posts. As any good pilot should be able to tell you this is a poor percentage and at only 1.34% of posts per views I’m sure you will accept that this is well below the expected expenditure of pilots over the next 12 months.
Assuming of course that these views are ALL AAC, which it is seriously unlikely to be, I’m guessing that the 1.34% replies is unrealistic.
I believe you seriously need to decide which figure of terminations will be operationally acceptable and the amount of tasks you require the AAC to conduct in the future, and to which your fine organisation at Middle Wallop are producing such fine qualities of ground crew and aircrew. I for one firmly believe that the decisions being made in your department at present are far beyond what you are expecting in return from your Corps.
What the AAC needs is a leader and adviser in Aviation, who is willing to stand up and defend certain decisions such as arguments with the AFPRB to the current regulations regarding Specialist Pay (Flying) and the discrepancies between the 3 services regarding this pay, and not someone who considers “banning tomato ketchup in the officers mess” more important.
It will only be a matter of time before the press get wind of this situation, and understand the seriousness of Army Air Corps pilots deploying to places such as Iraq and Afghanistan when their total thought process is not on the job ahead.
People have planned and predicted future incomes on expenditures such as mortgages, children’s education etc. on the expected increment of Specialist Pay (Flying). The last thing that the British Army needs is a pilot on detachment worrying about financial matters back home, just because a certain individual has decided to change the criteria.
I believe an immediate response from you on this matter, and the current situation regarding manning, is well over due and should be acted on immediately to save embarrassment and future terminations.
Sir, I no longer remain your obedient servant,
RICON
Ps. If any of the Press wish to know exactly what is going on with the Army Air Corps flying pay situation then please PM me. I will not reply within 28 days from this date (30 May 2007), to wait for an acceptable reply (on this thread) from higher authority within MOD. Beyond that date I will happily inform any interested party on the current situation (except the SUN).
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I've done it too. Soon be a civi! No point in banging on, it is not going to change. If you dont like it - leave. There are plenty who will fill your shoes. Sad but true. This is the army and none of us (however much we like like to think different) are indispensible.
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Congrats Horror box, the job market is certainly under going a period of improved opportunites for those with a couple of thousand hours behind them and mostly you won't be asked to live away from home out of a black plastic box, or sleep on a cot bed in a shared tent for weeks on end.Good Luck
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Further to my last post directed to DAAVN, an article in the DAAVN gazette trying to justify the latest CHANGES is not acceptable as I for one did not even know there was a DAAVn gazette, or is that something else you keep close to your chest so as not to disgruntle the lower ranks within the AAC.
Rant over.
Rant over.