Future Carrier (Including Costs)
Joined: May 2003
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From: London/Oxford/New York
"Why do you think NATO considers the carrier to be of extreme importance and aside from Britain, France, Italy, and Spain all have a carrier capability?"
Possibly because the Americans provide all of it for free? The UK has 2 small unreliable carriers that have a handful of jets (and a promise of two squadrons in 18-24 months - wow!), The French have single carrier, The Italians and the Spanish have a glorified, aging helicopter carrier each - the Spanish vessel is no longer listed as an Aircraft Carrier but as an assault ship. The rest of NATO doesn't bother
All together they have less , a lot less, capability of a single US carrier
Possibly because the Americans provide all of it for free? The UK has 2 small unreliable carriers that have a handful of jets (and a promise of two squadrons in 18-24 months - wow!), The French have single carrier, The Italians and the Spanish have a glorified, aging helicopter carrier each - the Spanish vessel is no longer listed as an Aircraft Carrier but as an assault ship. The rest of NATO doesn't bother
All together they have less , a lot less, capability of a single US carrier
Small? SMALL?? At over 65,000 tons and the largest vessels ever to enter RN service you have a very strange idea of size…
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: Portsmouth
It's also worth noting that were one to do a comparison of manpower needed per sortie generated (and indeed equate that to cost), then QEC would be significantly more efficient than a CVN.....
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: The Roman Empire
The UK F-35 fleet is triple, or even quadruple hatted, in terms of meeting UK defence missions in time of war.
So, even if we do get the full 138 order, which I personally very much doubt, I don't think we will often see a sizable chunk of the UK fleet on board a carrier, apart from major exercises planned several years in advance.
So, even if we do get the full 138 order, which I personally very much doubt, I don't think we will often see a sizable chunk of the UK fleet on board a carrier, apart from major exercises planned several years in advance.
Joined: Oct 2018
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From: Ferrara
The UK F-35 fleet is triple, or even quadruple hatted, in terms of meeting UK defence missions in time of war.
So, even if we do get the full 138 order, which I personally very much doubt, I don't think we will often see a sizable chunk of the UK fleet on board a carrier, apart from major exercises planned several years in advance.
So, even if we do get the full 138 order, which I personally very much doubt, I don't think we will often see a sizable chunk of the UK fleet on board a carrier, apart from major exercises planned several years in advance.
from
:-HoC Defence Committe Report. First Report - Ready for War? - 4th Feb 2024
59. Professor Justin Bronk also raised the issue of F-35 fleet size, describing the F-35 force as “triple or quadruple-hatted in terms of how many parts of UK defence are counting on it for how many mission outputs in the case of a war [and] … there are not very many of them.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Peripatetic
https://www.navylookout.com/rapid-re...-short-notice/
Rapid response – HMS Prince of Wales sails to replace her sister ship at short notice
Just a week after HMS Queen Elizabeth was withdrawn from exercise Steadfast Defender due to a defect, HMS Prince of Wales will sail on 10th February as her replacement (subject to the usual caveats about weather conditions).
This represents a staggering effort by the ship’s company and the support team in Portsmouth. PWLS was at 30 days’ notice to sail but has been prepared to sail in 7 days. Last weekend PWLS was just beginning a planned maintenance period and among other projects, her flight deck was covered in tents and scaffolding in preparation for work to start on reapplying CAMREX (non-skid paint) and heat-resistant coatings (TMS – Thermal Metallic Spray) to the flight deck.….
Until now PWLS has only embarked two F-35 jets and although many rotary wing types have also been handled onboard, these were mostly for flying trials evolutions. She has never before hosted an air group and the full complement of COMUKCSG battle staff.
Embarking the air group involves taking on another 5-600 people in addition to the core ship’s company, all of which have to be safely delivered to the ship, integrated into life on board and produce effective operational outputs.
A major logistic effort is required to store ship with assorted equipment to support the air group as well as the additional food and other items transferred from QNLZ to PWLS….
As the high readiness carrier, QNLZ had an almost full load of air weapons, although this was due to be further enhanced by her 4th visit to the Northern Ammunition Jetty at Glen Mallan for another on-load before STDE24. Instead, PWLS is expected to visit Glen Mallan soon for the first time to fill her largely empty magazines while QNLZ follows later to conduct an off-load prior to docking in Rosyth.
The Phalanx Close-In Weapons Systems (CIWS) were removed from PWLS while she was being repaired in Rosyth but were not replaced as she was heading to the Eastern Seaboard of the US where there is no perceived air threat.
While it may make sense for a navy short of sailors to save the need for a few weapon maintainers, this kind of practice perhaps demonstrates a peacetime mentality where the focus is the next deployment in the programme rather than a mindset that is prepared for the unexpected.
Unsurprisingly there has not been time in the last week to re-embark the 3 Phalanx mounts, set to work, certify and test them…..
Rapid response – HMS Prince of Wales sails to replace her sister ship at short notice
Just a week after HMS Queen Elizabeth was withdrawn from exercise Steadfast Defender due to a defect, HMS Prince of Wales will sail on 10th February as her replacement (subject to the usual caveats about weather conditions).
This represents a staggering effort by the ship’s company and the support team in Portsmouth. PWLS was at 30 days’ notice to sail but has been prepared to sail in 7 days. Last weekend PWLS was just beginning a planned maintenance period and among other projects, her flight deck was covered in tents and scaffolding in preparation for work to start on reapplying CAMREX (non-skid paint) and heat-resistant coatings (TMS – Thermal Metallic Spray) to the flight deck.….
Until now PWLS has only embarked two F-35 jets and although many rotary wing types have also been handled onboard, these were mostly for flying trials evolutions. She has never before hosted an air group and the full complement of COMUKCSG battle staff.
Embarking the air group involves taking on another 5-600 people in addition to the core ship’s company, all of which have to be safely delivered to the ship, integrated into life on board and produce effective operational outputs.
A major logistic effort is required to store ship with assorted equipment to support the air group as well as the additional food and other items transferred from QNLZ to PWLS….
As the high readiness carrier, QNLZ had an almost full load of air weapons, although this was due to be further enhanced by her 4th visit to the Northern Ammunition Jetty at Glen Mallan for another on-load before STDE24. Instead, PWLS is expected to visit Glen Mallan soon for the first time to fill her largely empty magazines while QNLZ follows later to conduct an off-load prior to docking in Rosyth.
The Phalanx Close-In Weapons Systems (CIWS) were removed from PWLS while she was being repaired in Rosyth but were not replaced as she was heading to the Eastern Seaboard of the US where there is no perceived air threat.
While it may make sense for a navy short of sailors to save the need for a few weapon maintainers, this kind of practice perhaps demonstrates a peacetime mentality where the focus is the next deployment in the programme rather than a mindset that is prepared for the unexpected.
Unsurprisingly there has not been time in the last week to re-embark the 3 Phalanx mounts, set to work, certify and test them…..
Joined: Oct 2018
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From: Ferrara
so they have to go to Scotland every time the plans change? This is madness - tho it probably sounds great to the Treasury
I despair - I'm not a carrier fan but if we're going to have them surely we can afford a few more CIWS? The carriers cost billions
I despair - I'm not a carrier fan but if we're going to have them surely we can afford a few more CIWS? The carriers cost billions
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,130
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From: Royal Berkshire
I was more astonished to see that POW was needing to have the decks re-done so soon after barely operating any F-35's let alone ever a full air-wing......!
How long would the deck last if she ever had to operate a full air-wing (if we ever have enough jets to do so) for an extended tour...or a combat tour?
How long would the deck last if she ever had to operate a full air-wing (if we ever have enough jets to do so) for an extended tour...or a combat tour?
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 807
Likes: 425
From: Portsmouth
The CIWS thing isn't great, but frankly fixable if there was less pressure on time
Don't forget, this is speculation. QNLZ was due to go to Rosyth for refit anyway. The issue with the shaft coupling is a question of risk appetite and might actually be sorted by a material / structural study. Still, frigates and destroyers eh?
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 807
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From: Portsmouth
In the meantime, say the ship deploys on Steadfast Defender and then "might" need to go somewhere warmer for a longer period, there's a risk choice to make. Swap the ships now and guarantee you could support that extended period, or gamble that the deterioration investigation answer is " nothing to see here".
Joined: May 2002
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From: Downeast
NAB,
Excuse me if I sound critical but if it has to be investigated....certainly it is an issue or it would not require investigation.
Perhaps assessing how severe or critical an issue it is might be more appropriate.
Excuse me if I sound critical but if it has to be investigated....certainly it is an issue or it would not require investigation.
Perhaps assessing how severe or critical an issue it is might be more appropriate.
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Joined: Jan 2019
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Posts: 803
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From: Cumbria
HMS Prince of Wales "fails to depart for NATO exercise ..... "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-68268560
Another announcement " .... later on Sunday".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-68268560
Another announcement " .... later on Sunday".
