Future Carrier (Including Costs)
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 384
Likes: 33
From: England
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 214
Likes: 7
From: pluto
I'm still amazed at how stable that thing is in the hover, compared with our previous trusty steed.
It looks good. Very well done to all involved.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 24,550
Likes: 7,281
From: Peripatetic
Not sure who else in Europe might want to have, or share, a CTOL carrier.
”Also at Euronaval today, Florence Parly, French minister of the armed forces, announced plans for the successor to the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier. A 18-month study phase has been launched that should give guidelines for choices such as diesel or nuclear propulsion, mechanical or electromagnetic catapults and the possibility to accommodate aircraft from other European countries. She hinted more than one vessel may be ordered, thanks to European cooperation.”
”Also at Euronaval today, Florence Parly, French minister of the armed forces, announced plans for the successor to the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier. A 18-month study phase has been launched that should give guidelines for choices such as diesel or nuclear propulsion, mechanical or electromagnetic catapults and the possibility to accommodate aircraft from other European countries. She hinted more than one vessel may be ordered, thanks to European cooperation.”
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,968
Likes: 102
From: Devon
Nuclear power was briefly considered for CVF, but fortunately rejected. I say fortunate in light of the problems France and the US have with nuclear carriers. Nuclear power is very expensive, demands a lot of manpower, and makes refits very long as you basically open up the ship to replace the reactors. Submarines have had the same problems, but the latest reactor cores used in the Astute boats are designed to last the boat's life.
Even the Americans are finding that refitting and refueling nuclear carriers causes availability issues.
Anyway - back to HMS Queen Elizabeth:
Even the Americans are finding that refitting and refueling nuclear carriers causes availability issues.
Anyway - back to HMS Queen Elizabeth:
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 31st October 2018 at 21:09.
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,915
Likes: 4
From: New Braunfels, TX
Nuclear power was briefly considered for CVF, but fortunately rejected. I say fortunate in light of the problems France and the US have with nuclear carriers. Nuclear power is very expensive, demands a lot of manpower, and makes refits very long as you basically open up the ship to replace the reactors. Submarines have had the same problems, but the latest reactor cores used in the Astute boats are designed to last the boat's life.
Even the Americans are finding that refitting and refueling nuclear carriers causes availability issues.
Even the Americans are finding that refitting and refueling nuclear carriers causes availability issues.
As for operating cost of nuclear vessels, the biggest cost hurdle for a nuclear powered ship is that very few ships share the needed nuclear infrastructure. With the military having created a nuclear infrastructure for marine powerplants, commercial nuclear vessels are again being studied and designed, but not yet built. The biggest remaining hurdle is insurance. Lloyds for example won't insure a commercial nuclear vessel. The 1962 Brussels Convention on liability of nuclear ship operators was never ratified. The governments self-insure their military nuclear vessels.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,968
Likes: 102
From: Devon
So why was there talk of a 'crisis' regarding US Carrier availability?
Anyway...
During the 2011 campaign against Gaddafi, certain carrier critics cited the operating limitations of FS Charles De Gaulle as a limitation of all carriers - ignoring the limitations caused by her size and also by aircraft landing and catching a wire being more sensitive to sea state than aircraft landing vertically. Sea state four was the limit as I seem to remember.
HMS Queen Elizabeth has launched and recovered F-35B in sea state six with fifty knot winds.
Those who argued for smaller carriers were arguing for reduced operating limits, but without reducing cost significantly.
Anyway...
During the 2011 campaign against Gaddafi, certain carrier critics cited the operating limitations of FS Charles De Gaulle as a limitation of all carriers - ignoring the limitations caused by her size and also by aircraft landing and catching a wire being more sensitive to sea state than aircraft landing vertically. Sea state four was the limit as I seem to remember.
HMS Queen Elizabeth has launched and recovered F-35B in sea state six with fifty knot winds.
Those who argued for smaller carriers were arguing for reduced operating limits, but without reducing cost significantly.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 1st November 2018 at 10:56.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 343
Likes: 15
From: UK
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,915
Likes: 4
From: New Braunfels, TX
It had nothing to do with nuclear refueling and lots to do with opstempo exacerbated by sequestration funding. Carriers can't stay at sea forever, nor can they remain deployed forever. The carrier needs to return to homeport for maintenance, the ship's crew needs to return to homeport for their families and training, and the airwing needs to disembark for deep aircraft maintenance, crew training, family time, etc. When opstempo requires carriers to remain at sea and/or deployed for longer than planned and the rotation cycles are subsequently disrupted, it's just a matter of time before things stack up and everything starts falling apart. Look at the Navy's Hornet and Super Hornet fleets. There are all kinds of availability issues there and that has less than nothing to do with nuclear refueling. Their rotation/maintenance cycles were disrupted by opstempo and sequestration funding issues.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,968
Likes: 102
From: Devon
Bing/KenV
It does appear I got my issues mixed up. The problem was caused by funding issues and the operational tempo. However nuclear still would have be the wrong choice for the UK, cost, politics, and manpower.
I really wanted to flag up the fact that the F-35B trials have involved operating in sea state six with fifty know winds, when some carrier critics on here claimed that the limits FS Charles De Gaulle encountered in the Mediterranean in 2011 (sea state four or higher and recovering aircraft became an issue) were some sort of fixed thing for all carriers. A 65 000 tonne ship is more stable than a circa 40 000 tonne one, and vertical landing (and rolling vertical?) and less sensitive to ship motion than catching a wire.
Trials continue: HMS Queen Elizabeth begins second phase of F-35 trials
Beyond the completed DT-1 test requirements—which were performed within the same flight envelope as will be used in the first operational test phase—the ITF also conducted about half of the testing that falls under the DT-2 threshold, or the flight envelope needed to reach initial operational capability (maritime).The ITF returned to the ship in late October for DT-2, which will concentrate on external stores testing, minimum performance short-takeoffs and SRVLs, and night operations.
The rapid progress is the result of many years of effort, despite politicians trying to make things harder for everyone.
It does appear I got my issues mixed up. The problem was caused by funding issues and the operational tempo. However nuclear still would have be the wrong choice for the UK, cost, politics, and manpower.
I really wanted to flag up the fact that the F-35B trials have involved operating in sea state six with fifty know winds, when some carrier critics on here claimed that the limits FS Charles De Gaulle encountered in the Mediterranean in 2011 (sea state four or higher and recovering aircraft became an issue) were some sort of fixed thing for all carriers. A 65 000 tonne ship is more stable than a circa 40 000 tonne one, and vertical landing (and rolling vertical?) and less sensitive to ship motion than catching a wire.
Trials continue: HMS Queen Elizabeth begins second phase of F-35 trials
Beyond the completed DT-1 test requirements—which were performed within the same flight envelope as will be used in the first operational test phase—the ITF also conducted about half of the testing that falls under the DT-2 threshold, or the flight envelope needed to reach initial operational capability (maritime).The ITF returned to the ship in late October for DT-2, which will concentrate on external stores testing, minimum performance short-takeoffs and SRVLs, and night operations.
The rapid progress is the result of many years of effort, despite politicians trying to make things harder for everyone.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,968
Likes: 102
From: Devon
I assume that the F-35B shipborne trials are proceeding. I wonder if the programme currently being filmed by Chris Terrill will mention all the measures taken post SDSR 10 to preserve the skills needed to make it possible - some of which are well known, other possible ones have been hinted at....?
Anyway - I wanted to post this from the UK Defence Journal: Merlin helicopters and frigates protect US assault ship in war games
I wanted to make a few points:
1. ASW helicopters are key for ASW operations. This news page from the RN website has more information about what the Merlins aboard HM Ships Westminster and Northumberland did during the exercise. However 24/7 dipping means something like eight or nine aircraft, and that means a carrier.
2. Carriers are not the only high value units within a task group that need to be defended by frigates, destroyers, and aircraft.
3. Task Group operations lie at the heart of both deterrence and war fighting.
4. Non Towed Array sonar/Merlin equipped frigates, and Type 45 destroyers, have an ASW capability with hull mounted sonar and Wildcat, as proved recently by HMS Diamond. You may also be interested in the fighter control and other things mentioned.
Anyway - I wanted to post this from the UK Defence Journal: Merlin helicopters and frigates protect US assault ship in war games
I wanted to make a few points:
1. ASW helicopters are key for ASW operations. This news page from the RN website has more information about what the Merlins aboard HM Ships Westminster and Northumberland did during the exercise. However 24/7 dipping means something like eight or nine aircraft, and that means a carrier.
2. Carriers are not the only high value units within a task group that need to be defended by frigates, destroyers, and aircraft.
3. Task Group operations lie at the heart of both deterrence and war fighting.
4. Non Towed Array sonar/Merlin equipped frigates, and Type 45 destroyers, have an ASW capability with hull mounted sonar and Wildcat, as proved recently by HMS Diamond. You may also be interested in the fighter control and other things mentioned.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,968
Likes: 102
From: Devon
I for one will look forward to Chris Terrill's programme (on TV sometime next year) about the WESTLANT 18 deployment, and the flying trials. I would also be interested to see any coverage of all the efforts post SDSR 10 to keep carrier related skills alive.
I would also like to see a programme which acknowledges that the helicopters are not just there for moving stuff around, which the last programme about Queen Elizabeth implied. The Merlin HM2 has a radar, dipping sonar, torpedoes and so on for a reason.....
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,968
Likes: 102
From: Devon
It is not all about the jets - the carrier also provides the means for things like task group Anti Submarine Warfare by carrying sufficient helicopters (Merlin HM2 in our case) for 24/7 dipping....
I wonder when HMS Queen Elizabeth will take part in an exercise like Deep Blue? Perhaps the fact that the helicopter acts at a range from the carrier, therefore protecting everything inside that zone is overlooked? When we start doing deployments of a carrier and a LPD this will be a bit more obvious.
She has also carried Junglies and Bootnecks:
The Junglies have also performed a SAR role:
But back to the jets......
F-35 jets leave HMS Queen Elizabeth after 'eclipsing aspirations'
The success of the Westlant 18 deployment – which has also included a very high-profile visit to New York – allows the Portsmouth-based ship to move on to operational trials next year with British-owned F-35s flown by Naval and Air Force aviators based at RAF Marham.
....Captain Nick Cooke Priest, HMS Queen Elizabeth’s new Commanding Officer who was in command for the second phase of this current set of F-35 trials said this autumn’s trials had marked “a significant milestone on the Royal Navy’s journey back to big deck carrier operations.
“The schedule has been busy and challenging and the results have eclipsed the aspiration; this success is largely due to the exceptional relationship that exists between the ship and her embarked staff, and the scientists, engineers and pilots of the F-35 Integrated Test Force, all of whom have shown exceptional professionalism, dedication and drive.”
Lastly - HMS Dragon has been working with the USS Essex and her F-35B in the Middle East
Commander Michael Carter-Quinn, Dragon’s Commanding Officer, said: “Having trained as a fighter controller, and controlled harrier jump jets while serving on board HMS Invincible, it has been a great honour to command HMS Dragon to provide air defence duties to our US Navy colleagues.
“The step change in performance and range of roles the F-35s can provide is impressive, and to be able to work with these aircraft now in preparation for supporting the integration of the Queen Elizabeth-class, Type 45s and F-35s into the carrier strike group is exciting."
I wonder when HMS Queen Elizabeth will take part in an exercise like Deep Blue? Perhaps the fact that the helicopter acts at a range from the carrier, therefore protecting everything inside that zone is overlooked? When we start doing deployments of a carrier and a LPD this will be a bit more obvious.
She has also carried Junglies and Bootnecks:
The Junglies have also performed a SAR role:
But back to the jets......
F-35 jets leave HMS Queen Elizabeth after 'eclipsing aspirations'
The success of the Westlant 18 deployment – which has also included a very high-profile visit to New York – allows the Portsmouth-based ship to move on to operational trials next year with British-owned F-35s flown by Naval and Air Force aviators based at RAF Marham.
....Captain Nick Cooke Priest, HMS Queen Elizabeth’s new Commanding Officer who was in command for the second phase of this current set of F-35 trials said this autumn’s trials had marked “a significant milestone on the Royal Navy’s journey back to big deck carrier operations.
“The schedule has been busy and challenging and the results have eclipsed the aspiration; this success is largely due to the exceptional relationship that exists between the ship and her embarked staff, and the scientists, engineers and pilots of the F-35 Integrated Test Force, all of whom have shown exceptional professionalism, dedication and drive.”
He continued: “This deployment has however delivered far more than the initial integration of fixed wing aircraft with the ship
“It has re-introduced the true value that carrier capabilities bring to the UK and her allies, it has deepened our relationship with our closest ally, demonstrated our nation’s engineering prowess and cemented our commitment to the future as a global navy.”
“It has re-introduced the true value that carrier capabilities bring to the UK and her allies, it has deepened our relationship with our closest ally, demonstrated our nation’s engineering prowess and cemented our commitment to the future as a global navy.”
Lastly - HMS Dragon has been working with the USS Essex and her F-35B in the Middle East
Commander Michael Carter-Quinn, Dragon’s Commanding Officer, said: “Having trained as a fighter controller, and controlled harrier jump jets while serving on board HMS Invincible, it has been a great honour to command HMS Dragon to provide air defence duties to our US Navy colleagues.
“The step change in performance and range of roles the F-35s can provide is impressive, and to be able to work with these aircraft now in preparation for supporting the integration of the Queen Elizabeth-class, Type 45s and F-35s into the carrier strike group is exciting."
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 23rd November 2018 at 09:19.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,968
Likes: 102
From: Devon
UK posters may be interested in knowing that BBC2 is showing Britain's Biggest Warship again at 1900 tonight. See here. You might also find it on YouTube.....
Am I being cynical in wondering if it is being shown again to compete with the series set aboard of of the Type 45 destroyers that starts tomorrow night on Channel 5?
Am I being cynical in wondering if it is being shown again to compete with the series set aboard of of the Type 45 destroyers that starts tomorrow night on Channel 5?
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 25th November 2018 at 17:40.
Joined: Jul 2008
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 2,979
Likes: 175
From: Australia OZ
Britains Biggest Warship Series (Parts 1 to 3 out of 3) I'll guess
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6jyg5j
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6jyg5k
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6jyg5l
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6jyg5j
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6jyg5k
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6jyg5l
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 26th November 2018 at 02:19. Reason: frickinFormat