Future Carrier (Including Costs)

[langleybaston]

D Tel on line writing of sending an HMS carrier to the Gulf.
Some RN credence?

[Not_a_boffin]

Originally Posted by langleybaston

D Tel on line writing of sending an HMS carrier to the Gulf.
Some RN credence?

It's the Telegraph. Any credence on defence went out the door years ago, when John Keegan died.

What is an HMS Carrier anyway?

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Originally Posted by Low Average

Thanks WEBF, good to know that operational missions were flown from the Carrier in 2021.

Originally Posted by SLOwft

(WEBF - thanks for pointed out the correct dates for the CV launched F-35 ops - I had both stories open and copied from the wrong one - doh!)

What makes missions operational? Delivering ordnance? The Maritime Operating Concept describes the use of maritime forces as PEC - W: Protect, Engage, Constrain, - Warfight.

The execution of activity across the PEC-W framework is neither linear nor sequential. The Maritime Force – by virtue of being a contingency force in use – is capable of delivering simultaneous effect across PEC-W. For example, a planned Carrier Strike Group deployment may conduct engagement activity with allies, constrain an adversary’s freedom (by action or threat), contribute to conventional deterrence, and provide a contingency for crisis response... - Page 39

The Maritime Force will deny access to maritime Key Terrain by establishing synchronised Sea Control (with the footnote 'Bounded in space and time to the limits necessary to produce effects/accomplish objectives'). - Page 44

NATO/JEF deployments - and things such as the interception of Russian aircraft and ASW activities very much fall into the Constrain category.

Originally Posted by Not_a_boffin

Its only recently that people have realised we might have to sink major units again.......

It was only recently the numbskulls who hold political office and the media have realised that history never ended and state competition and conflict still exist, including the need for sea control. I wonder if the critics know the strategic situation, current and future maritime threats, and naval technology and tactics better than the heads of the Royal Navy, United States Navy, Marine Nationale, and others. who had a conference last week?

Sea has become a more contested environment, and navies need to think about naval combat “from seabed to space,” according to Vaujour. Maritime airspace is now contested, as shown in the Red Sea and the Black Sea, and that will probably be the case for every future crisis, he said.

The ability of carriers to function as intelligence nodes and using artificial intelligence to integrate battlefield sensor data from their entire strike group will be key to fending off new threats, the French admiral said.

“We must understand what’s going on before the enemy,” Vaujour said. “New technology will give us the opportunity to do that.”

While aircraft carriers face challenges, there’s still no better better way to deliver mobile expeditionary strike, force projection and force protection from the sea, said Adm. Sir Ben Key, First Sea Lord and Chief of Naval Staff of the Royal Navy. He pointed to China building carriers, despite having developed apparent carrier killer capability.

The contemporary battlespace has become more contested for everyone, and the challenge for carrier strike groups is to integrate all available data to create a “superiority bubble” around the carrier, according to Key.

“For years, we have assumed sea control, and so we could invest everything pretty much in local superiority and strike as the principal aim,” Key said. “Now what we’ve got to get back into is thinking more deeply on how we do sea control.”

Some of us have, and understand that just like in the Cold War, the carrier is vital for Sea Control - as discussed here.

Originally Posted by Ninthace

Assuming such a wish was granted, getting the ships into a position to defend Ukrainian ports might be difficult during the current hostilities. Speaking of which, where did the mine hunters we gave the Ukrainians end up?

The two Sandown class Minehunters have not been able to be delivered, so the answer would appear to be no. Also training sailors to effectively operate frigates is going to be a much greater task than training minehunter crews. I wonder if really it was code for saying that he thought we should not be cutting our forces, as we can distract Russian forces away from Ukraine. The Tu-95 looking at NATO task groups and singleton warships cannot be firing missiles into Kyiv.

Originally Posted by langleybaston

D Tel on line writing of sending an HMS carrier to the Gulf.
Some RN credence?

Possibly - but as far as I know the idea would be to replace the USS Dwight D Eisenhower on station later this year. We also have NATO commitments such as Exercise Steadfast Defender 24, the first part of which will focus on transatlantic reinforcement.

[Not_a_boffin]

Oh FFS.

[langleybaston]

Originally Posted by Not_a_boffin

Oh FFS.

Profound, even erudite, but not enlightening.

[Asturias56]

Todays Times letters

Constrained carrier

Sir,

It is no longer possible to duck the question of why a British aircraft carrier was unable to be dispatched to the Red Sea. Quite simply it was intransigence by the RAF: it has not put sufficient priority into the provision of F35 aircraft and their necessary logistic and manpower support because it inexplicably seems to think of the F35s as being for shore-based use. This is extraordinary, bearing in mind our nation specifically ordered the short take-off and vertical landing variant of this fifth-generation aircraft as we wanted it to operate from the carriers.

The generation of carrier strike has never been seen as a priority by the RAF, and as it has ownership and control of the purse strings for the F35, despite it being procured specifically for carrier use, it has been able to delay and adversely affect the programme. It would be timely to transfer ownership and funding across to the Royal Navy — the benefit to carrier strike and UK defence capability would be stunning.

Admiral Lord West of Spithead
Former chief of the naval staff

[Not_a_boffin]

Originally Posted by Asturias56

Todays Times letters

Constrained carrier

Sir,

It is no longer possible to duck the question of why a British aircraft carrier was unable to be dispatched to the Red Sea. Quite simply it was intransigence by the RAF: it has not put sufficient priority into the provision of F35 aircraft and their necessary logistic and manpower support because it inexplicably seems to think of the F35s as being for shore-based use. This is extraordinary, bearing in mind our nation specifically ordered the short take-off and vertical landing variant of this fifth-generation aircraft as we wanted it to operate from the carriers.

The generation of carrier strike has never been seen as a priority by the RAF, and as it has ownership and control of the purse strings for the F35, despite it being procured specifically for carrier use, it has been able to delay and adversely affect the programme. It would be timely to transfer ownership and funding across to the Royal Navy — the benefit to carrier strike and UK defence capability would be stunning.

Admiral Lord West of Spithead
Former chief of the naval staff

Seems like its going to be one of those days.

It's Alan West. FFS.

[dctyke]

I see the F35A is nuclear capable, is the F35B ?

[t7a]

Is West related to Sharky perchance?

[SpazSinbad]

Originally Posted by dctyke

I see the F35A is nuclear capable, is the F35B ?

16 Nov 2022 https://armscontrolcenter.org/fact-s...strike-fighter
"...The fighter has three variants, one of which (F-35A) is planned to be nuclear-capable by 2024...."

27 Nov 2023 https://www.twz.com/b-2-spirit-now-o...-nuclear-bombs
"...The B61-12, which also has small rockets at the rear of the body that spin the bomb to help stabilize it, is a so-called dial-a-yield bomb that can be set to detonate with various degrees of explosive force. Its reported maximum yield setting is 50 kilotons...."

B61-12 test drop by an F-35A

You Tube

[Asturias56]

"During his time as First Sea Lord, West implemented the defence white paper entitled Delivering Security in a Changing World which proposed cutting three Type 23 frigates, three Type 42 destroyers, four nuclear submarines, six minehunters and reducing the planned purchase of Type 45 destroyers from twelve to eight"

"In January 2016, following news emerging about serious power and propulsion problems with the Royal Navy Type 45 destroyer, West argued it was a "national disgrace" that the Navy only had 19 destroyers and frigates."

[SLXOwft]

One expects better of the grown ups, interservice sniping only ends up hurting both sides. I would lay the blame at the at the doors of HMT, the F-35 Program Office, and government by a succession of politicians who refuse to see the changed threat so they can avoid the necessary tax rises. Also the disaster that was the 2010 SDR as justified by the empty coffers left by the government of which he was a member. The government which effectively cut the RAF's Harrier force by assigning airframes to the RN following canning Sea Harrier as F-35s were coming in 2012.

IMHO the problem with F-35 is simply it isn't mature yet and the UK is buying too few to fulfil the roles of the aircraft it replaced. Delaying the next buy may turn out to be sensible though as the UK will get a better version without having to upgrade so many airframes..

Firstly we have looked at what sort of operations we are likely to undertake. The SDR assumptions hold good, but the emphasis has shifted from running two Telic-sized operations together, to more numerous small scale ops such as Sierra Leone. We will retain the ability to conduct high intensity ops. We have also looked at reducing the number of units deploying specifically for individual tasks by making better use of the JRRF pool. Whilst clearly a ship can only be in one place at one time, the potential gains to be realised from investment in network enabled capability, combined with the revised planning assumptions, result in all 3 Services requiring fewer units than before. For the RN this means our DD/FF force will reduce to 25, SSNs to 8 and MCMVs to 16. In addition the peace process in Northern Ireland will result in the disposal of the NIPVs. We have selected which ships will go to ensure that we retain a balance of capabilities. By improving the quality of the networked capability of our major warships we will be able to deliver the desired military effects from a reduced number of platforms. We have therefore decided to set our requirement for T45s at 8 ships.

(...)

In explaining these reductions to our people it is important to focus on the following:

• The government has re-confirmed the central role in joint expeditionary warfare that the Navy will continue to play. (my emphasis)
• The core capabilities of the Navy remain intact and in particular: the carrier strike capability continues to lie at the heart of the versatile maritime force with CVF due to enter service from 2012. The amphibious forces will continue to benefit from new investment and ships.
• We must continue the shift in emphasis away from measuring strength in terms of hull numbers and towards the delivery of military effects. The new ships and submarines will be far more capable than those they replace. The T45, Astute and LSD(A) programmes will begin delivering ships in the next few years. Work continues in the MOD on the MARS (future RFA, JCTS (replacement PCRS/Argus) and FSC programmes.
• We will continue to offer satisfying and rewarding career opportunities to our people

(...)

I do not instinctively welcome the early disposal of good ships and these have been most difficult decisions. They are however essential if we are to ensure that the finite resources available to defence are targeted at the requirements of the 21st Century rather than what we inherited from the 20th. I am confident that these changes will leave the Navy better organised and equipped to face the challenges of the future.

Message from CNS 21 July 2004

[Asturias56]

" I would lay the blame at the at the doors of HMT, the F-35 Program Office, and government by a succession of politicians who refuse to see the changed threat so they can avoid the necessary tax rises."

Exactly - the arrival of F-35's to the UK is glacial compared to other countries.

And refighting the old RAF v. RN wars is just ridiculous

[ORAC]

The Daily Express…

Thats HMS Vanguard, that last British battleship that was scrapped in 1960, rather than the current SSBN, and it’s a routine Trident test firing with a dummy warhead off cape Canaveral into the Atlantic range…

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/18...ent-2-military

[artee]

Originally Posted by ORAC

The Daily Express…

Thats HMS Vanguard, that last British battleship that was scrapped in 1960, rather than the current SSBN, and it’s a routine Trident test firing with a dummy warhead off cape Canaveral into the Atlantic range…

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/18...ent-2-military

Gosh! Our SSBNs are getting bigger

[Asturias56]

Never realised they had a band on board - no wonder they cost so much..........................

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by ORAC

The Daily Express…

Thats HMS Vanguard, that last British battleship that was scrapped in 1960, rather than the current SSBN, and it’s a routine Trident test firing with a dummy warhead off cape Canaveral into the Atlantic range…

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/18...ent-2-military

Its enough to make you weep.....
The shear incompetence of not even being able to use Google search correctly......

[Asturias56]

worse - the Sub-editor not knowing the difference between a submarine and a Battleship.................

[langleybaston]

Originally Posted by GeeRam

Its enough to make you weep.....
The shear incompetence of not even being able to use Google search correctly......

I disagree. It brought smile to my chops, a reassuranc that, although I am an idiot, I am not alone.

[Ninthace]

Parts of the Vanguard’s steel were used to make the Whole Body Monitor at the Institute for Naval Medicine because it was made from pre atomic steel, unlike the current Vanguard, which is atomic.