Future Carrier (Including Costs)
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From: Portsmouth
NAB,
Thanks, I understand what is being talked about now.
Given that there is reportedly damage to the stbd prop, and rudder, which I understand is offset to allow the shaft to be drawn if needed, it seems that a potential mechanism is that the fairing failed, and departed the coupling heading for the prop, which chewed-up the fairing and itself then fired some or all the remains into the rudder. The coupling itself may, or may not, be OK.
N
Thanks, I understand what is being talked about now.
Given that there is reportedly damage to the stbd prop, and rudder, which I understand is offset to allow the shaft to be drawn if needed, it seems that a potential mechanism is that the fairing failed, and departed the coupling heading for the prop, which chewed-up the fairing and itself then fired some or all the remains into the rudder. The coupling itself may, or may not, be OK.
N
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From: Derbyshire
During my three years on exchange with the USN many years ago, my memory tells me that their theory was that to keep one carrier operational, for each they needed four - the operational one, one working up, one working down, and one in deep maintenance or upgrade. We have two - so no surprise that we cannot keep a promise to have one doing what we said it would do. Not sure we could afford four, so perhaps we should just accept PWS failing to do what it was supposed to do.
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From: Somerset
you could fit both of them in there I think.
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From: Baston
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From: East Sussex
In the absence of cat and traps on our BIG carriers, I'd rather have some amphibious assault ships that can operate F35B's like the US Marines.
It is unlikely we will ever have enough F35C's to fill one QE class carrier, let alone two of them!!!
It is unlikely we will ever have enough F35C's to fill one QE class carrier, let alone two of them!!!
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From: Downeast
Technical point.....tis the Navy that has the ships.
The Marines own some small boats but no Ships.
Until the Marines can actually walk on water they shall be using Navy Ships to get to where they need to go.
The Marines own some small boats but no Ships.
Until the Marines can actually walk on water they shall be using Navy Ships to get to where they need to go.
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From: East Sussex
As one of the fighting arms of the Navy, one would expect the Navy to transport them and their "small boats" to the fight.
Thread Starter
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From: Devon
I had no idea that I was in charge of Public Relations or whatever it is called these days. Positive spin? Embarrassment? A very unusual failure of a part that cannot be inspected or maintained by the ship's company, and I assume will be subject to in depth engineering investigation
Originally Posted by langleybaston
Yes, "is" in my opinion. Much rather have more frigates and hunter-killers.
I am not sure how many frigates and SSNs that the QEC spend would have bought, or how you would justify them to the politicians, or indeed were the SSNs could be built.
The other question is what for? Do you really think a task group without a carrier can more effectively counter air, surface, and submarine threats? To quote Not_a_Boffin from the dark days just after SDSR10:
A fleet of DD/FF has little in terms of balanced capability because it cannot go anywhere where there is an air threat, unless it has maritime air cover - something that has proved virtually impossible to supply from land cost-effectively. That air threat could be as low capability as a Thai carrier with AV8As, but because (relatively) it can command the maritime airspace, it trumps a T45 or a helo carrier because it can hold the helo at threat. A DD/FF force is therefore limited to an area of influence not much further than the horizon. There is no use for a DD/FF heavy force with no maritime air. The nearest example is the JMSDF and they are structured to defend the sea of Japan and not much else. We (allegedly) don't have a threat to home waters anymore, certainly not one that justifies hordes of DD/FF.
Against the submarine the two most effective systems are the towed array sonar which provides long range detection, and the dipping sonar equipped ASW helicopter which provides precise location and long range weapon delivery. It is easier to coordinate and support constant ASW operations with multiple helicopters from a carrier than for flights aboard different ships to coordinate their activities.
CSG21 last year was an example. In the Mediterranean, F-35B Lightnings from HMS Queen Elizabeth intercepted Russian jets thirty times. I have no doubt that the Type 45 destroyers played a part in controlling intercepts, but they simply could not intercept with a missile! In combat, the aircraft can engage at a far greater range - and provide the means for shooting the archers, not the arrows. In the Mediterranean Russian submarines took an interest, as did Chinese ones in the South China Sea. The Type 23 frigates provided long range detection and cued the ASW Merlins from the carrier - keeping them at arm's length. Imagine that the task/strike group had been escorting crisis response shipping or an amphibious force, or perhaps acting as a barrier to stop hostile naval and air forces.
Originally Posted by WB627
In the absence of cat and traps on our BIG carriers, I'd rather have some amphibious assault ships that can operate F35B's like the US Marines.
It is unlikely we will ever have enough F35C's to fill one QE class carrier, let alone two of them!!!
It is unlikely we will ever have enough F35C's to fill one QE class carrier, let alone two of them!!!
F-35Cs? The UK has F35B.
Just out of interest, HMS Queen Elizabeth is putting to sea tomorrow. Initially she was sail to the Western Atlantic to pick up some of the WESTLANT22 tasking, before returning to carry on with her planned deployment to the Mediterranean, which coincides with the LRG (North) Deployment.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 6th September 2022 at 19:10.
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From: Royal Berkshire
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From: East Sussex
. I blame the Yanks, three completely different versions of the same plane!! 
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From: NC, USA
Thread Starter
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From: Devon
The day HMS Prince of Wales put to sea (and they day before she came to a halt) I wrote of the WESTLANT22 deployment she was set for, with SRVL trials, UAV experimentation, and being the venue for the Atlantic Future Forum 22. I also wrote of HMS Queen Elizabeth and her deployment in the NATO area, which coincides with an amphibious deployment. I also noted that:
Traditionally carriers have been very important to NATO, particularly in terms of sea control, despite all the media numpties who insisted that carriers exist to drop bombs on targets on enemy shores and nothing else. This of course has been discussed on this thread, or places like CVF and Carrier Strike - ARRSE, and Late 1970s US Congress Report - The US Sea Control Mission (carriers needed in the Atlantic for Air Defence and ASW - both then and today) - ARRSE. This last thread has a high signal to noise ratio and features insights from a former US Navy carrier flyer, as well as links to multiple official documents, including the declassified 1980s maritime strategy papers, and academic papers, and explains things in the terms of the perspectives of the Cold War front line and the implications of Geography, Physics, and Maths.
Sea control remains the primary naval mission, and one that the carrier provides greater defensive range as well as an outer layer of defence.
Today: Britain’s flagship heads for the USA ahead of autumn on European operations - Royal Navy
Britain’s flagship leaves Portsmouth today bound for the United States – and ahead of an autumn on operations and exercises in European waters.
In the coming months, HMS Queen Elizabeth will be at the heart of a powerful task group made up of thousands of sailors, up to ten ships, F-35B Lightning jets, helicopter squadrons and Royal Marines Commandos which will operate across Europe this autumn.
But the aircraft carrier will first deploy to the east coast of the United States to undertake parts of HMS Prince of Wales’ deployment – as her sister ship undergoes repairs.
HMS Queen Elizabeth’s Commanding Officer, Captain Ian Feasey, said: “After a period of maintenance it is fantastic for the Fleet Flagship to be underway again to conduct operational activity with allies and partners.”
The Royal Navy task force will work closely with allies and partners across Europe – from the Baltic all the way south to the Balkans and Black Sea region – over the coming months.
The operations are part of galvanised NATO efforts in the face of Russia’s unprovoked invasion of Ukraine to safeguard security, stability and prosperity across Europe.
Traditionally carriers have been very important to NATO, particularly in terms of sea control, despite all the media numpties who insisted that carriers exist to drop bombs on targets on enemy shores and nothing else. This of course has been discussed on this thread, or places like CVF and Carrier Strike - ARRSE, and Late 1970s US Congress Report - The US Sea Control Mission (carriers needed in the Atlantic for Air Defence and ASW - both then and today) - ARRSE. This last thread has a high signal to noise ratio and features insights from a former US Navy carrier flyer, as well as links to multiple official documents, including the declassified 1980s maritime strategy papers, and academic papers, and explains things in the terms of the perspectives of the Cold War front line and the implications of Geography, Physics, and Maths.
Sea control remains the primary naval mission, and one that the carrier provides greater defensive range as well as an outer layer of defence.
Today: Britain’s flagship heads for the USA ahead of autumn on European operations - Royal Navy
Britain’s flagship leaves Portsmouth today bound for the United States – and ahead of an autumn on operations and exercises in European waters.
In the coming months, HMS Queen Elizabeth will be at the heart of a powerful task group made up of thousands of sailors, up to ten ships, F-35B Lightning jets, helicopter squadrons and Royal Marines Commandos which will operate across Europe this autumn.
But the aircraft carrier will first deploy to the east coast of the United States to undertake parts of HMS Prince of Wales’ deployment – as her sister ship undergoes repairs.
HMS Queen Elizabeth’s Commanding Officer, Captain Ian Feasey, said: “After a period of maintenance it is fantastic for the Fleet Flagship to be underway again to conduct operational activity with allies and partners.”
The Royal Navy task force will work closely with allies and partners across Europe – from the Baltic all the way south to the Balkans and Black Sea region – over the coming months.
The operations are part of galvanised NATO efforts in the face of Russia’s unprovoked invasion of Ukraine to safeguard security, stability and prosperity across Europe.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 2nd October 2022 at 22:22.
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From: Devon
HMS Queen Elizabeth is currently heading across the Atlantic to pick up some of the WESTLANT22 tasking, including acting as the platform for the Atlantic Future Forum, before returning to European waters as part of NATO deterrence activities. She was launched by HM Queen Elizabeth The Second, who also was present for her commissioning, and spoke to personnel aboard prior to sailing for the CSG21 deployment, despite having recently lost her beloved Prince Phillip. Her steadfast dedication to duty is an example to us all. Her Majesty also launched the lead ship of the previous class of RN carriers, HMS Invincible, in 1980.Those who have met Her Majesty said that they were always impressed by her grasp of the details and the way she did her homework - qualities shared with our new King.
Unfortunately many of the politicians involved in drawing up defence policy and making decisions, and many staff officers, have not been willing to do their homework and have not had much of s sense of duty. Unlike a Monarch who seeks to unite, politicians inevitably divide. Here is an official Royal Navy document that makes it plan that the carriers will have a NATO role, including gaining and retaining the necessary degree of sea control to ensure Freedom of Manoeuvre.
MARITIME OPERATING CONCEPT - THE MARITIME FORCE CONTRIBUTION TO THE INTEGRATED OPERATING CONCEPT
Under section 5 - Force Level Outputs - page 50
The Maritime Force will be organised around four Force Level Outputs: Homeland and Operational Advantage in the North Atlantic; Persistent Engagement; Carrier Strike; Littoral Strike
Homeland and Operational Advantage in the North Atlantic - page 52
An integrated Maritime Force, with NATO at its heart, protecting our homeland and our allies. Homeland Defence/Warfighting. Includes the attribution of CASD, Carrier Strike, and Littoral Strike capabilities (LRG(N)) to NATO as a pillar of Defence and Deterrence in the Euro Atlantic; seeks a more assertive posture which regains operational advantage.
Key outcomes:
• Protection of strategic interests and CNI, including Maritime Counter Terrorism and Maritime Security in the UK’s TTW and EEZ.
• Ensure freedom of manoeuvre in the North Atlantic.
• Maintain CASD for UK and NATO.
• Lead nation in NATO MARCOM.
Carrier Strike - page 54
The heart of the Maritime Force’s – and NATO’s – warfighting capability Built around the Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers. Carrier Strike: Homeland Defence/Contingency/ Warfighting. Contribute to OANA. Through deployments to strategic locations across the globe, promote UK interests, deter adversaries and prevent conflict.
• Project decisive air power from a protected maritime task group, including gaining and retaining the necessary degree of sea control to ensure Freedom of Manoeuvre.
• Demonstrate Global Britain, with regular deployments openly demonstrating British will to engage and resolve to act.
• Contribute to UK/NATO warfighting capability, as a more lethal and more integrated Maritime Force.
• Enable and execute Special Operations
Asturias56
I commented on Prince of Wales and her issues on the previous page.
Unfortunately many of the politicians involved in drawing up defence policy and making decisions, and many staff officers, have not been willing to do their homework and have not had much of s sense of duty. Unlike a Monarch who seeks to unite, politicians inevitably divide. Here is an official Royal Navy document that makes it plan that the carriers will have a NATO role, including gaining and retaining the necessary degree of sea control to ensure Freedom of Manoeuvre.
MARITIME OPERATING CONCEPT - THE MARITIME FORCE CONTRIBUTION TO THE INTEGRATED OPERATING CONCEPT
Under section 5 - Force Level Outputs - page 50
The Maritime Force will be organised around four Force Level Outputs: Homeland and Operational Advantage in the North Atlantic; Persistent Engagement; Carrier Strike; Littoral Strike
Homeland and Operational Advantage in the North Atlantic - page 52
An integrated Maritime Force, with NATO at its heart, protecting our homeland and our allies. Homeland Defence/Warfighting. Includes the attribution of CASD, Carrier Strike, and Littoral Strike capabilities (LRG(N)) to NATO as a pillar of Defence and Deterrence in the Euro Atlantic; seeks a more assertive posture which regains operational advantage.
Key outcomes:
• Protection of strategic interests and CNI, including Maritime Counter Terrorism and Maritime Security in the UK’s TTW and EEZ.
• Ensure freedom of manoeuvre in the North Atlantic.
• Maintain CASD for UK and NATO.
• Lead nation in NATO MARCOM.
Carrier Strike - page 54
The heart of the Maritime Force’s – and NATO’s – warfighting capability Built around the Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers. Carrier Strike: Homeland Defence/Contingency/ Warfighting. Contribute to OANA. Through deployments to strategic locations across the globe, promote UK interests, deter adversaries and prevent conflict.
• Project decisive air power from a protected maritime task group, including gaining and retaining the necessary degree of sea control to ensure Freedom of Manoeuvre.
• Demonstrate Global Britain, with regular deployments openly demonstrating British will to engage and resolve to act.
• Contribute to UK/NATO warfighting capability, as a more lethal and more integrated Maritime Force.
• Enable and execute Special Operations
Asturias56
I commented on Prince of Wales and her issues on the previous page.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 14th September 2022 at 09:39.
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