Future Carrier (Including Costs)
A new helicopter carrier would have been a lot cheaper.....................
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The webcam shows great live pictures of the ship when she undocks and sails out of harbour.
Looking at that Webcam ... has anyone made any plans in case either a ferry, or a larger ship or even some bad person sinks in that very narrow passageway? Looks like a single point of failure to me..............
Would be a bit embarrassing to have everyone bottled up next to HMS Victory in an emergency................
Would be a bit embarrassing to have everyone bottled up next to HMS Victory in an emergency................
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Looking at that Webcam ... has anyone made any plans in case either a ferry, or a larger ship or even some bad person sinks in that very narrow passageway? Looks like a single point of failure to me..............
Would be a bit embarrassing to have everyone bottled up next to HMS Victory in an emergency................
Would be a bit embarrassing to have everyone bottled up next to HMS Victory in an emergency................
As to helicopter carriers the requirement is force projection! I am afraid please let us hunt submarines or land marines without bothering us with your nasty jets doesn’t cut it! Whilst not expecting to refight the Falklands, how do you think that would have worked out without SHAR? Before bleating about Argentina’s lack of capability, the core objective to be flexible to react to whatever you need to do. That is what CEPP is all about. This project is on track and looking good, albeit paced by F35 development.
Now please spend time getting a life :-)
Force projection is great but how often do you need to fight the Falklands War or similar? It was 35 years ago for heavens sake.
Your Navy is bleeding to death day by day, every day from cuts and under-investment to the stage when the Iranians can do what the hell they like because you only have a single warship in the Gulf. Oh, yes - you're sending another so you'll have 2 there for 3 weeks....
The carriers are a straight vanity project - it'll be years before they can embark a serious number of UK F-35's (if they survive the forthcoming round of cuts)
Your Navy is bleeding to death day by day, every day from cuts and under-investment to the stage when the Iranians can do what the hell they like because you only have a single warship in the Gulf. Oh, yes - you're sending another so you'll have 2 there for 3 weeks....
The carriers are a straight vanity project - it'll be years before they can embark a serious number of UK F-35's (if they survive the forthcoming round of cuts)
PeterGee,
Ignoring your condescending and patronizing “now get a life” closing remark...
Sure the carriers are all about projecting power, and that is principally fixed wing airpower, but the point that myself and others here are making is that hardly any of this fixed wing airpower exists.
617 Sqn has 9 Lightning’s, and until 809 Sqn forms in 2023 that’s it! And even then 617 are not a full time embarked squadron, they are our entire non Typhoon strike force.
Those 9 Lightnings are carrying out the roles previously performed by the entire Tornado GR4, Sea Harrier and Harrier fleets.
So this is why I think they are extremely vulnerable to a Dominic Cummings attack of logic. That being they are incapable of carrying out their prime function.
Ignoring your condescending and patronizing “now get a life” closing remark...
Sure the carriers are all about projecting power, and that is principally fixed wing airpower, but the point that myself and others here are making is that hardly any of this fixed wing airpower exists.
617 Sqn has 9 Lightning’s, and until 809 Sqn forms in 2023 that’s it! And even then 617 are not a full time embarked squadron, they are our entire non Typhoon strike force.
Those 9 Lightnings are carrying out the roles previously performed by the entire Tornado GR4, Sea Harrier and Harrier fleets.
So this is why I think they are extremely vulnerable to a Dominic Cummings attack of logic. That being they are incapable of carrying out their prime function.
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Meanwhile the CAA has told MoD to go back to the drawing board - again - with its proposals to expand the airspace around Holbeach and Donna Nook to accommodate F-35 weapons training. The new airspace was supposed to be in place this month. It now looks like they won't get a CAA decision on the airspace till spring 2021.
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PeterGee,
Ignoring your condescending and patronizing “now get a life” closing remark...
Sure the carriers are all about projecting power, and that is principally fixed wing airpower, but the point that myself and others here are making is that hardly any of this fixed wing airpower exists.
617 Sqn has 9 Lightning’s, and until 809 Sqn forms in 2023 that’s it! And even then 617 are not a full time embarked squadron, they are our entire non Typhoon strike force.
Those 9 Lightnings are carrying out the roles previously performed by the entire Tornado GR4, Sea Harrier and Harrier fleets.
So this is why I think they are extremely vulnerable to a Dominic Cummings attack of logic. That being they are incapable of carrying out their prime function.
Ignoring your condescending and patronizing “now get a life” closing remark...
Sure the carriers are all about projecting power, and that is principally fixed wing airpower, but the point that myself and others here are making is that hardly any of this fixed wing airpower exists.
617 Sqn has 9 Lightning’s, and until 809 Sqn forms in 2023 that’s it! And even then 617 are not a full time embarked squadron, they are our entire non Typhoon strike force.
Those 9 Lightnings are carrying out the roles previously performed by the entire Tornado GR4, Sea Harrier and Harrier fleets.
So this is why I think they are extremely vulnerable to a Dominic Cummings attack of logic. That being they are incapable of carrying out their prime function.
I agree all programs are subject to cancellation, particularly in these unusual times, but it would be odd to finish paying for.successful project and then pull the plug. of course you never know!
The programme plan of record calls for us to be where we are are, with 617 having 9 cabs gradually increasing. I know you know though we have more then 9 cabs though! The buy is ramped around F35 development. How many block 3 cabs do you want to upgrade? Of course CEPP is not build around one incomplete frontline squadron!
It is way too simplistic to say F35 replaces those fleets. Typhoon is also replacing tormado and harrier capability. What is required is far more flexibility from a more limited number of squadrons, based around Typhoon and F35.
I think you'll find looking back that almost everyone who is "anti-carrier" on here is very PRO RN - - the money is being spent on the wrong ships - they could have had another Astute, another T45 and some minesweepers and a bucket load of change for the cash spent on the QE - and manned them as well
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[QUOTE=Asturias56;10551671]I think you'll find looking back that almost everyone who is "anti-carrier" on here is very PRO RN - - the money is being spent on the wrong ships - they could have had another Astute, another T45 and some minesweepers and a bucket load of change for the cash spent on the QE - and manned them as well[/QUOT
PRO RN maybe! However, understanding war fighting in the maritime / literal environment, no.
Aside from Germany and Japan (for good reason), which other peer nations think maritime air power is not required. Even Japan is now moving on that!
I suspect the real Anti Carrier sentient is not driven from being pro RN!
UPDATED and To be clear, 1 Astute plus 1 T45 plus some not yet designed minesweepers equals QE! So you really think the RN is better served adding further resilience to capabilities it already has, rather then rounding its capabilities properly!
Of course more DD/FF capacity would be welcome, just like for FJ squadrons. However the budget is the budget. The carriers provide a much more balanced force at an investment of £100 million or so per year, at very good value.
Last edited by PeterGee; 22nd Aug 2019 at 14:46.
PG - thank you - I couldn't have put my view better........
"So you really think the RN is better served adding further resilience to capabilities it already has,"
Absolutely - when EVERYONE agrees it is stretched to breaking point to fulfill those tasks more of the same has to be the first priority so it can do the jobs that have been loaded onto the force
you don't add another set of complex and expensive tasks to their burden and stretch the current force even further...........
"So you really think the RN is better served adding further resilience to capabilities it already has,"
Absolutely - when EVERYONE agrees it is stretched to breaking point to fulfill those tasks more of the same has to be the first priority so it can do the jobs that have been loaded onto the force
you don't add another set of complex and expensive tasks to their burden and stretch the current force even further...........
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PG - thank you - I couldn't have put my view better........
"So you really think the RN is better served adding further resilience to capabilities it already has,"
Absolutely - when EVERYONE agrees it is stretched to breaking point to fulfill those tasks more of the same has to be the first priority so it can do the jobs that have been loaded onto the force
you don't add another set of complex and expensive tasks to their burden and stretch the current force even further...........
"So you really think the RN is better served adding further resilience to capabilities it already has,"
Absolutely - when EVERYONE agrees it is stretched to breaking point to fulfill those tasks more of the same has to be the first priority so it can do the jobs that have been loaded onto the force
you don't add another set of complex and expensive tasks to their burden and stretch the current force even further...........
Can you please provide evidence that everyone knows the RN is stretched to breaking point? Internet gossip does not count as evidence. The RN is going through transformation to rebuild a capability it should never have lost. There are lots of things going to restructure operations to support the new ask and operating rythm. Alongside significant upgrades to the FF and DD fleets this has taken a fair bit of planning, But right now there are now 7 RN / RFA units in the gulf, with two more heading eastwards. A Westlant deployment is about to start. Further, some research will reveal significant NATO activity with multiple units during 2019. Aside from the USN, which other navies can undertake that level of activitity?
I have no idea what your objective is. The RN is doing just fine. CEPP is a capability that is on track on the UK shoud be proud of. There are no massively cheaper options to provide the needed capability. (CVS sized carries will neither save enough money or meet the ask) Sadly for those that see Fast Air as a land based entity, those days are over. The watchword is flexbility. Typhoons that do AD and Strike, F35s that do land and sea, strike, EW and AD. If you join the RAF, you may find yourself at sea!
Thread Starter
Talking of which, when is the next ASW exercise (such as Deep Blue (in 2014 - nine Merlin HM2 aboard HMS Illustrious plus another aboard Westminster) or Deep Blue II (in 2016 - with Ocean and a mixed group of aircraft)?
I find it annoying that the website does not press home the point that ASW is a carrier role - task group ASW means constantly having helicopters airborne, which means you need a big deck. ASW might be needed for say an LPD, or Crisis Response Shipping. Sadly there was no other HVA acting as the unit to be protected in those exercises. However, a pair of 2087/Merlin equipped Type 23s provided ASW for an American LHD during Trident Juncture last year, the same time as WESTLANT 19 and Saif Sareea III with Oman, with routine tasks continuing in the background.
The RN will be deploying a carrier based task group, instead of one centred around amphibious forces. The two can and do exist together. If all the ships committed to exercises in Norway and Oman were together, it starts to look like a capable task group. One that could do with carrier based ASW and air defence.
The UK has committed a carrier to the NATO response force. We have also agreed to provide ASW capabilities. In December last year, the Human Security Centre said:
The UK’s Royal Navy should take the lead in any early effort to counter offensive Russian submarine operations via a multi-national task group centred upon one of the new Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers.
The full report is here.
The fact that we were able to reinforce our presence in the Gulf in fairly short time should say something (like being able to deploy in response to other crises elsewhere), however building an extra Type 45 or two is not going to be practical, neither will building more SSNs as were are now committed to building news SSBNs with those construction facilities.
The idea that the Stena Impero was seized by the Iranians due to the carrier meaning the Gulf was not full of RN frigates/destroyers is just plain dumb. The tanker only gave the RN an hour's notice of a Strait of Hormuz transit.
I find it annoying that the website does not press home the point that ASW is a carrier role - task group ASW means constantly having helicopters airborne, which means you need a big deck. ASW might be needed for say an LPD, or Crisis Response Shipping. Sadly there was no other HVA acting as the unit to be protected in those exercises. However, a pair of 2087/Merlin equipped Type 23s provided ASW for an American LHD during Trident Juncture last year, the same time as WESTLANT 19 and Saif Sareea III with Oman, with routine tasks continuing in the background.
The RN will be deploying a carrier based task group, instead of one centred around amphibious forces. The two can and do exist together. If all the ships committed to exercises in Norway and Oman were together, it starts to look like a capable task group. One that could do with carrier based ASW and air defence.
The UK has committed a carrier to the NATO response force. We have also agreed to provide ASW capabilities. In December last year, the Human Security Centre said:
The UK’s Royal Navy should take the lead in any early effort to counter offensive Russian submarine operations via a multi-national task group centred upon one of the new Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers.
The full report is here.
The fact that we were able to reinforce our presence in the Gulf in fairly short time should say something (like being able to deploy in response to other crises elsewhere), however building an extra Type 45 or two is not going to be practical, neither will building more SSNs as were are now committed to building news SSBNs with those construction facilities.
The idea that the Stena Impero was seized by the Iranians due to the carrier meaning the Gulf was not full of RN frigates/destroyers is just plain dumb. The tanker only gave the RN an hour's notice of a Strait of Hormuz transit.
"Can you please provide evidence that everyone knows the RN is stretched to breaking point?"
I really don't know what to say except to ask what desert island you've been stuck on for the last 10 years...
Look at this thread - there are dozens of links to various studies and statement by experts, and RN officers.
Read the Times or the Telegraph - letter after letter, article after article........... same with the BBC
Read every edition of the annual "British Warships & Auxiliaries" for the last 15 years - or the annual authoritative "World Naval Reviews" - or "Janes"
In 2012 the Chief of the UK Defence Staff stated in a lecture at Oxford "One of my biggest concerns is the number of frigates and destroyers the Nay has" - at that point it had 24-26 vessels - you now have 19
I really don't know what to say except to ask what desert island you've been stuck on for the last 10 years...
Look at this thread - there are dozens of links to various studies and statement by experts, and RN officers.
Read the Times or the Telegraph - letter after letter, article after article........... same with the BBC
Read every edition of the annual "British Warships & Auxiliaries" for the last 15 years - or the annual authoritative "World Naval Reviews" - or "Janes"
In 2012 the Chief of the UK Defence Staff stated in a lecture at Oxford "One of my biggest concerns is the number of frigates and destroyers the Nay has" - at that point it had 24-26 vessels - you now have 19
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"Can you please provide evidence that everyone knows the RN is stretched to breaking point?"
I really don't know what to say except to ask what desert island you've been stuck on for the last 10 years...
Look at this thread - there are dozens of links to various studies and statement by experts, and RN officers.
Read the Times or the Telegraph - letter after letter, article after article........... same with the BBC
Read every edition of the annual "British Warships & Auxiliaries" for the last 15 years - or the annual authoritative "World Naval Reviews" - or "Janes"
In 2012 the Chief of the UK Defence Staff stated in a lecture at Oxford "One of my biggest concerns is the number of frigates and destroyers the Nay has" - at that point it had 24-26 vessels - you now have 19
I really don't know what to say except to ask what desert island you've been stuck on for the last 10 years...
Look at this thread - there are dozens of links to various studies and statement by experts, and RN officers.
Read the Times or the Telegraph - letter after letter, article after article........... same with the BBC
Read every edition of the annual "British Warships & Auxiliaries" for the last 15 years - or the annual authoritative "World Naval Reviews" - or "Janes"
In 2012 the Chief of the UK Defence Staff stated in a lecture at Oxford "One of my biggest concerns is the number of frigates and destroyers the Nay has" - at that point it had 24-26 vessels - you now have 19
I am ex RN. I live overseeing Portsmouth dockyard. I socialise with serving members. Yes 100% there are challenges but the RN is still a first rate navy.
I pitched 2 questions you are not responding to.
1) Which other peer navies do not think they need aircraft carriers? (I will help you, those who do are, USN, China, India, Japan, Russia, South Korea, France, Italy, Spain. I would not be surprised to see you aussies join that list.
2) The RN will have 3 concurrent deployments in the rest of 2019. Aside for the USN who else could do that? (Plus Submarine ops)
These are far from vanity projects, but provide a rounded flexible capability the country should be very proud of! At a build cost of circa £100 million a year, for 2 ships they offer amazing value. (A T45 estimated
service life of 25 years is not so much cheaper at £40 million a year for each hull)