Air Training Corps
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Originally Posted by SirToppamHat
... and absolutely nothing to do with the tiny amount of money (in relative terms) that the Air Training Corps costs the taxpayer.
STH
STH
My point exactly STH
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Which is about £24 million - next to bu@@er all for a means of fostering good citizenship and air-mindedness in the youth of the UK, who, despite what you might read in the papers, aren’t generally a bunch of chavs or wasters.
(And it is a good recruitment tool too, not that of course it is
)
some with the ATA!
(And it is a good recruitment tool too, not that of course it is
)
Many older Cadets 'served' in WWII
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Originally Posted by tmmorris
And where do you think the RAF of 2010, 2015 or 2020 will come from?
T
T
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=225687
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As a Cadet in the ATC I thought I should post something on this thread.
I have been a member of the ATC for 5 years and am nearing the end of my cadet career. I have done so many great things with the ACO in my time, and I highly reccomend the organisation to any teenager. I have benefited from my time in the ACO and have learnt so much. I feel, the ACO has made me a better person and will help me in whatever career I persue in later life.
The Corps is by no means perfect and has a few problems, like any other organisation does. Yes some members of staff are w*nkers and should not hold a comission, but this is a small minority of the adult staff that make up this organisation.
Instead of hanging around, being chavs and a general problem to society, the ACO teaches teenager many thing. respect, discipline, leadership skills and team work, to name a few. Teenagers have the chance to fire rifles, fly aircraft and meet people from all over the country. People that they wouldn't usually have any contact with.
For young people interested in joing the RAF, or any other branch of the armed forces, the ACO help them tremendously. The Corps does help in recruitment for the RAF, I think it gives you an advantage when/if you go for OASC.
To all the people who don't like the ATC and think that it should be done away with I ask: Were you members of the ATC?
These are all my opinions and if anyone disagess then fine. However please don't slate me too much about this.
Thanks for reading
Dave
I have been a member of the ATC for 5 years and am nearing the end of my cadet career. I have done so many great things with the ACO in my time, and I highly reccomend the organisation to any teenager. I have benefited from my time in the ACO and have learnt so much. I feel, the ACO has made me a better person and will help me in whatever career I persue in later life.
The Corps is by no means perfect and has a few problems, like any other organisation does. Yes some members of staff are w*nkers and should not hold a comission, but this is a small minority of the adult staff that make up this organisation.
Instead of hanging around, being chavs and a general problem to society, the ACO teaches teenager many thing. respect, discipline, leadership skills and team work, to name a few. Teenagers have the chance to fire rifles, fly aircraft and meet people from all over the country. People that they wouldn't usually have any contact with.
For young people interested in joing the RAF, or any other branch of the armed forces, the ACO help them tremendously. The Corps does help in recruitment for the RAF, I think it gives you an advantage when/if you go for OASC.
To all the people who don't like the ATC and think that it should be done away with I ask: Were you members of the ATC?
These are all my opinions and if anyone disagess then fine. However please don't slate me too much about this.
Thanks for reading
Dave
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I have a mate who is in the RAF but works for the ACO. We had a chin wag over a beer this weekend. He goes away quite a lot and gets cheesed off back at his own base when he has people lording over him that have no military experience at all. I do wonder, what pecentage of Air Cadets go on to join the RAF. I wouldn't join the RAF. I wanted to a few years ago, good job I didn't with the lataest round of redundancies. As for the Voulenteer Gliding schools, why dont these people join private gliding clubs? ITS TO EXPENSIVE!!!! sttaight from the horses mouth
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I wouldn't join the RAF. I wanted to a few years ago, good job I didn't
Its possible that I am not as familiar to the organisation as yourself.
How many do they have? they reducing the RAF all the time and i just think the priorities are all to . end of lecture.
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As for the Voulenteer Gliding schools, why dont these people join private gliding clubs? ITS TO EXPENSIVE!!!! sttaight from the horses mouth
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Originally Posted by Maple 01
Which is about £24 million - next to bu@@er all for a means of fostering good citizenship and air-mindedness in the youth of the UK, who, despite what you might read in the papers, aren’t generally a bunch of chavs or wasters.
(And it is a good recruitment tool too, not that of course it is )
some with the ATA!
(And it is a good recruitment tool too, not that of course it is
)some with the ATA!
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Hi,
I still personally feel that the ATC is a great recruiting tool for the service and for aviation in general -I spent seven years in it becoming a CWO ultimately.
I think it has a slight image problem with alot of the teenagers today -but that is a society wide problem.
yes, as a vouluntary organisation it does attract alot of 'wannabes' (you know the type,poncing around in flying suits pretending to be 'maverick' and the traffic warden turned uniformed god type),
However from my peer group we produced:
3 airline pilots
2 RAF pilots
3 RAF officers
numerous airmen
Not a bad result, I can still recall vivdly my first solo in 1988 at Benson in the venture (thank you flt lt hazelwood !)
and if it wasn't for that i wouldn't be sitting in a 757 today !
I still personally feel that the ATC is a great recruiting tool for the service and for aviation in general -I spent seven years in it becoming a CWO ultimately.
I think it has a slight image problem with alot of the teenagers today -but that is a society wide problem.
yes, as a vouluntary organisation it does attract alot of 'wannabes' (you know the type,poncing around in flying suits pretending to be 'maverick' and the traffic warden turned uniformed god type),
However from my peer group we produced:
3 airline pilots
2 RAF pilots
3 RAF officers
numerous airmen
Not a bad result, I can still recall vivdly my first solo in 1988 at Benson in the venture (thank you flt lt hazelwood !)
and if it wasn't for that i wouldn't be sitting in a 757 today !
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Without the ATC, and in particular a Squadron in the Midlands, I would never have made it to be a pilot in the RAF, an airline captain flying large and well paid aircraft and now, a prosperous retiree being able to do pretty much whatever I want.
I owe them big time!
I owe them big time!
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Originally Posted by DK338
Ah yes, but by disbanding the VR(T) and enrolling you in the ATC, which was my point.....................
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First of all let me say how interesting this thread is.
Let me explain my background so you know where I’m coming from. I joined the ATC aged 14 and 8 years later left as a CWO. I am currently a CI, and I am applying for a commission in the VR(T). After I finished university I considered joining the RAF, but I wasn’t really interested in becoming an EngO as they didn’t seem to do what I wanted to be doing, which was work with the aircraft. I got an offer from a civvy company doing design, so I took that. I considered joining the RAuxAF, but around my neck of the woods they are Regiment units, and playing in the mud has never really been my thing! So I decided to stick it out in the ATC, and am currently deputy Adj on my squadron as well as doing various other jobs.
Now I may not have any real knowledge of how the RAF works, but I feel that after 10 years involvement in the ATC I do have a good knowledge of how the Corps works. I feel that this stands me in good stead if I actually get commissioned. I understand that it’s easier to achieve a commission in the ATC than the RAF, but if I was offered an IOT course similar to those RAuxAF officers go through I would jump at the chance. If I’m going to be an officer I don’t want to do it half-arsed! I am very proud of the RAF and the association the ATC has with it. It’s what marks us apart from every youth organisation in the country.
At the end of the day, I do like being in uniform but I’m not really fussed if my commission is real or just an ATC one so long as it allows me to get the job done to the best of my ability.
I’m sorry that some Regular and Aux personnel have had bad experiences (as I have) with VR(T) officers who have ideas above their station, but generally they’re not a bad bunch.
Finally, and please don’t take this as in anyway sarcastic, could someone who has served in both the RAF (or RAuxAF) and the VR(T) give me some examples of how their service knowledge helped them in their ATC capacity? I am genuinely interested, as having little knowledge of the day to day running of the RAF, I can’t comment on how similar/dissimilar it is to the ATC.
Thanks
Dave
Let me explain my background so you know where I’m coming from. I joined the ATC aged 14 and 8 years later left as a CWO. I am currently a CI, and I am applying for a commission in the VR(T). After I finished university I considered joining the RAF, but I wasn’t really interested in becoming an EngO as they didn’t seem to do what I wanted to be doing, which was work with the aircraft. I got an offer from a civvy company doing design, so I took that. I considered joining the RAuxAF, but around my neck of the woods they are Regiment units, and playing in the mud has never really been my thing! So I decided to stick it out in the ATC, and am currently deputy Adj on my squadron as well as doing various other jobs.
Now I may not have any real knowledge of how the RAF works, but I feel that after 10 years involvement in the ATC I do have a good knowledge of how the Corps works. I feel that this stands me in good stead if I actually get commissioned. I understand that it’s easier to achieve a commission in the ATC than the RAF, but if I was offered an IOT course similar to those RAuxAF officers go through I would jump at the chance. If I’m going to be an officer I don’t want to do it half-arsed! I am very proud of the RAF and the association the ATC has with it. It’s what marks us apart from every youth organisation in the country.
At the end of the day, I do like being in uniform but I’m not really fussed if my commission is real or just an ATC one so long as it allows me to get the job done to the best of my ability.
I’m sorry that some Regular and Aux personnel have had bad experiences (as I have) with VR(T) officers who have ideas above their station, but generally they’re not a bad bunch.
Finally, and please don’t take this as in anyway sarcastic, could someone who has served in both the RAF (or RAuxAF) and the VR(T) give me some examples of how their service knowledge helped them in their ATC capacity? I am genuinely interested, as having little knowledge of the day to day running of the RAF, I can’t comment on how similar/dissimilar it is to the ATC.
Thanks
Dave
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Well said Lou Scannon!
I too benefited from my time as a Cadet and now having had a career flying both fast jets and commercial, am trying to give back a little to the Corps. I am proud to wear the VRT pins and proud to serve with a broad range of committed and talented uniformed and civilian staff. They all bring enormous experience from their family lives and civilian occupations and give of their time and talents generously. They provide a service and experience to our young people that simply isn't available elsewhere.
Tamper with the military links at your peril. The entire structure, tradition and ethos of the Corps depend totally on the close relationship with the RAF. Commissioning of our VRT Officers and their acceptance as "fellow officers" is an essential ingredient of that close bond. When I am surrounded by teachers, senior managers, businessmen, senior police officers, skilled workers, committed parents, university lecturers, airline pilots, engineers, medical professionals etc etc, it doesn't seem to matter that they haven't served in the RAF, they collectively bring more skills than I can to a military youth organisation. I fear that any dilution would weaken the relationship and lessen the air minded military ethos that we value so much.
Are there any bad eggs? You bet, but they are few and far between and are rarely commissioned.
I too benefited from my time as a Cadet and now having had a career flying both fast jets and commercial, am trying to give back a little to the Corps. I am proud to wear the VRT pins and proud to serve with a broad range of committed and talented uniformed and civilian staff. They all bring enormous experience from their family lives and civilian occupations and give of their time and talents generously. They provide a service and experience to our young people that simply isn't available elsewhere.
Tamper with the military links at your peril. The entire structure, tradition and ethos of the Corps depend totally on the close relationship with the RAF. Commissioning of our VRT Officers and their acceptance as "fellow officers" is an essential ingredient of that close bond. When I am surrounded by teachers, senior managers, businessmen, senior police officers, skilled workers, committed parents, university lecturers, airline pilots, engineers, medical professionals etc etc, it doesn't seem to matter that they haven't served in the RAF, they collectively bring more skills than I can to a military youth organisation. I fear that any dilution would weaken the relationship and lessen the air minded military ethos that we value so much.
Are there any bad eggs? You bet, but they are few and far between and are rarely commissioned.
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My cards on the table. I am a VRT officer, am a scaly brat as I come from an RAF family background (three generations) and have been in the ATC since the age if 13 as a cadet, CI, AWO and Officer.
Despite having met some prats and walts in my time, some of whom were actually exRAF airmen / NCOs who fancied "lording it" and "poncing around" as a VRT officer, I am proud of my service - yes it is service, not military / combat service obviously, but service - of thousands and thousands of hours over many years - to the best youth organisation in this country.
No I am NOT a wannabe and no I don't "ponce around" on RAF stations looking for salutes off airmen. Yes I do know some individuals who do / have done that and we - as in those (the vast majority of VRT officers) who know what we are in and why we are in it and don't suffer from delusions of grandeur - laugh at these walts and are embarrassed by them.
To all of you out there who are criticsing VRT officers, as you have such strong opinions why dont you offer your services to the ATC - obviously as a CI or Adult SNCO as you wouldnt take the commissioned route - and put half as much effort into advancing the ATC. You may find out that your strongly held opinions are actually totally unfair and reflect a small minority of idiots and walts that should never have made it into uniform of any kind (except perhaps traffic wardens), and that the majority of RAFVR(T) officers (and the AWO / SNCOs and Civiian Instructors) work their nuts off to generate great training opportunities for young pepole.
Now I know I am going to get a load of flak off some very opiniated people but I don't give a monkey's stuff. Enjoy attacking me for speaking my mind.
Despite having met some prats and walts in my time, some of whom were actually exRAF airmen / NCOs who fancied "lording it" and "poncing around" as a VRT officer, I am proud of my service - yes it is service, not military / combat service obviously, but service - of thousands and thousands of hours over many years - to the best youth organisation in this country.
No I am NOT a wannabe and no I don't "ponce around" on RAF stations looking for salutes off airmen. Yes I do know some individuals who do / have done that and we - as in those (the vast majority of VRT officers) who know what we are in and why we are in it and don't suffer from delusions of grandeur - laugh at these walts and are embarrassed by them.
To all of you out there who are criticsing VRT officers, as you have such strong opinions why dont you offer your services to the ATC - obviously as a CI or Adult SNCO as you wouldnt take the commissioned route - and put half as much effort into advancing the ATC. You may find out that your strongly held opinions are actually totally unfair and reflect a small minority of idiots and walts that should never have made it into uniform of any kind (except perhaps traffic wardens), and that the majority of RAFVR(T) officers (and the AWO / SNCOs and Civiian Instructors) work their nuts off to generate great training opportunities for young pepole.
Now I know I am going to get a load of flak off some very opiniated people but I don't give a monkey's stuff. Enjoy attacking me for speaking my mind.
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Originally Posted by onlyme
I too benefited from my time as a Cadet and now having had a career flying both fast jets and commercial, am trying to give back a little to the Corps. I am proud to wear the VRT pins and proud to serve with a broad range of committed and talented uniformed and civilian staff. They all bring enormous experience from their family lives and civilian occupations and give of their time and talents generously. They provide a service and experience to our young people that simply isn't available elsewhere.
Tamper with the military links at your peril. The entire structure, tradition and ethos of the Corps depend totally on the close relationship with the RAF. Commissioning of our VRT Officers and their acceptance as "fellow officers" is an essential ingredient of that close bond. When I am surrounded by teachers, senior managers, businessmen, senior police officers, skilled workers, committed parents, university lecturers, airline pilots, engineers, medical professionals etc etc, it doesn't seem to matter that they haven't served in the RAF, they collectively bring more skills than I can to a military youth organisation. I fear that any dilution would weaken the relationship and lessen the air minded military ethos that we value so much.
Are there any bad eggs? You bet, but they are few and far between and are rarely commissioned.
Tamper with the military links at your peril. The entire structure, tradition and ethos of the Corps depend totally on the close relationship with the RAF. Commissioning of our VRT Officers and their acceptance as "fellow officers" is an essential ingredient of that close bond. When I am surrounded by teachers, senior managers, businessmen, senior police officers, skilled workers, committed parents, university lecturers, airline pilots, engineers, medical professionals etc etc, it doesn't seem to matter that they haven't served in the RAF, they collectively bring more skills than I can to a military youth organisation. I fear that any dilution would weaken the relationship and lessen the air minded military ethos that we value so much.
Are there any bad eggs? You bet, but they are few and far between and are rarely commissioned.
I was going to say that, regrettably, my 'rant' late last night was fuelled by being knackered from having spent another weekend working long hours training ACO adult staff (which is true). However, having read it again this morning, with the option of using the edit or delete buttons, I opt to leave it as stands.
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Originally Posted by Jester282
Thank you for such an eloquent and well-reasoned answer.
I was going to say that, regrettably, my 'rant' late last night was fuelled by being knackered from having spent another weekend working long hours training ACO adult staff (which is true). However, having read it again this morning, with the option of using the edit or delete buttons, I opt to leave it as stands.
I was going to say that, regrettably, my 'rant' late last night was fuelled by being knackered from having spent another weekend working long hours training ACO adult staff (which is true). However, having read it again this morning, with the option of using the edit or delete buttons, I opt to leave it as stands.
Having spent 2 days trawling through this whole thread, I felt it was time to "bust my cherry" and post something.
As a "veteran" of 20 annual camps and 21 years as a member of staff in the ACO (18 as an Officer), I have come across several VR(T) Officers and AWOs who should not have been appointed.
However with the advent of more control in the form of H&S, Risk Assessments and the additional admin that goes with running any cadet activity there is more training offered, this training is never going to match that offered on IOT, it isn't meant to, it is there to enable the VR(T) Officer (and ASNCO) to carry out their duties on Squadron and on military establishments. This training and better selection processes are weeding out the "coat hangars". Things are changing, but it all takes time.
I would add that in my experience, Regular and RAuxAF personnel on stations are friendly and willing to help where they can, and to them I would say a huge thank you as this support is vital to the continued success of the ACO.
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I think that......
We need to hit the ground running, keep our eye on the ball, and make sure that we are all singing off the same song sheet. At the end of the day, it is not a level playing field and the goal posts may move; if they do, someone else may have to pick it up and run with it. We therefore must have a golf bag of options hot-to-trot from the word 'go'. It is your train set but we cannot afford to leave it on the back burner; we've got a lot of irons in the fire right now.
We need to unstick a few potential poo traps but it all depends on the flash to bang time and fudge factor allowed. Things may end up slipping to the left, if they do, we need to run a tight ship. I don't want to reinvent the wheel but we must get right into the weeds on this one. If push comes to shove, we may have to up stumps and then we'll be in a whole new ball game.
I suggest we test the water with a few warmers in the bank. If we can produce the goods then we are cooking with gas. If not, then we are in a world of hurt. I don't want to die in a ditch over it but we could easily end up in a flat spin if people start getting twitchy. To that end, I want to get round the bazaars and make sure the movers and the shakers are on-side from day one. If you hit me with your shopping list I can take it to the head honchos and start the ball rolling.
There is light at the end of the tunnel and I think we have backed a winner here. If it gets blown out of the water, however, I will be throwing a track. So get your feet into my in-tray and give me chapter and verse as to how you see things panning out. As long as our ducks are in a row I think the ball will stay in play and we can come up smelling of roses.
Before you bomb burst and throw smoke, it is imperative we nail our colours very firmly to the mast and look at the big picture. We've got to march to the beat of the drum. We are on a sticky wicket, so we'll need to play with a straight bat and watch out for fast balls.
I've been on permanent send for long enough and I've had my ten pence worth. I don't want to rock the boat or teach anyone to suck eggs. We must keep this firmly in our sight picture or it will fall between the cracks. If the cap fits, wear it, but it may seem like pushing fog up a hill with a sharp stick.
Hope this clarifies the situation for you!!
We need to hit the ground running, keep our eye on the ball, and make sure that we are all singing off the same song sheet. At the end of the day, it is not a level playing field and the goal posts may move; if they do, someone else may have to pick it up and run with it. We therefore must have a golf bag of options hot-to-trot from the word 'go'. It is your train set but we cannot afford to leave it on the back burner; we've got a lot of irons in the fire right now.
We need to unstick a few potential poo traps but it all depends on the flash to bang time and fudge factor allowed. Things may end up slipping to the left, if they do, we need to run a tight ship. I don't want to reinvent the wheel but we must get right into the weeds on this one. If push comes to shove, we may have to up stumps and then we'll be in a whole new ball game.
I suggest we test the water with a few warmers in the bank. If we can produce the goods then we are cooking with gas. If not, then we are in a world of hurt. I don't want to die in a ditch over it but we could easily end up in a flat spin if people start getting twitchy. To that end, I want to get round the bazaars and make sure the movers and the shakers are on-side from day one. If you hit me with your shopping list I can take it to the head honchos and start the ball rolling.
There is light at the end of the tunnel and I think we have backed a winner here. If it gets blown out of the water, however, I will be throwing a track. So get your feet into my in-tray and give me chapter and verse as to how you see things panning out. As long as our ducks are in a row I think the ball will stay in play and we can come up smelling of roses.
Before you bomb burst and throw smoke, it is imperative we nail our colours very firmly to the mast and look at the big picture. We've got to march to the beat of the drum. We are on a sticky wicket, so we'll need to play with a straight bat and watch out for fast balls.
I've been on permanent send for long enough and I've had my ten pence worth. I don't want to rock the boat or teach anyone to suck eggs. We must keep this firmly in our sight picture or it will fall between the cracks. If the cap fits, wear it, but it may seem like pushing fog up a hill with a sharp stick.
Hope this clarifies the situation for you!!
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I've been hanging around this site for ages, but haven't posted until now. It's taken a while to read this thread but some of the comments have really got me mad
I'm a serving JNCO in the RAF having done 18 years.I'm an ex-cadet and I also help out at my local ATC Sqn. Whilst I agree that there are some complete w*nkers in the ACO the majority of these people provide a valuable service to the youth of today. How many of you have spent time griping about the teenagers hanging around the streets causing trouble or glued to the TV/computer screen? The next time you see your local Sqn parading on Remembrance Day or Battle of Britain or any of the other numerous events throughout the year, remember that they want to be there, rain or shine.
The adults who give their time are to be praised and applauded. Without these unselfish people there would not be an ACO and so a lot more bored teenagers out there possibly causing trouble.
So what that some of them wear the uniform to make themselves feel good/important. Let them think what they want within their own little world
Not all of us in the RAF look down on these people. A lot of us realise the important role that they play in fostering the spirit of the ACO and in raising the next generation to be the kind of people we would trust to go into conflict alongside
Come on everyone, give them a break
I'm a serving JNCO in the RAF having done 18 years.I'm an ex-cadet and I also help out at my local ATC Sqn. Whilst I agree that there are some complete w*nkers in the ACO the majority of these people provide a valuable service to the youth of today. How many of you have spent time griping about the teenagers hanging around the streets causing trouble or glued to the TV/computer screen? The next time you see your local Sqn parading on Remembrance Day or Battle of Britain or any of the other numerous events throughout the year, remember that they want to be there, rain or shine.
The adults who give their time are to be praised and applauded. Without these unselfish people there would not be an ACO and so a lot more bored teenagers out there possibly causing trouble.
So what that some of them wear the uniform to make themselves feel good/important. Let them think what they want within their own little world
Not all of us in the RAF look down on these people. A lot of us realise the important role that they play in fostering the spirit of the ACO and in raising the next generation to be the kind of people we would trust to go into conflict alongside
Come on everyone, give them a break