Emirates...is this for real!!???
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Originally Posted by bobdxb
Also I believe, if pilots have face mask (required during Covid-19) while flying, it should be looked into for fatigue.
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My airline has a reasonably supportive view of manual flying and they back it up with a non punitive view to missed approaches and good culture to go with that but even flying short haul, I could just about count on one hand the amount of crew that have switched off the auto thrust on the A320 let alone the stories I hear from our long haul fleet where “it just never happens” is the constant refrain.
I don’t know how we’re ever going to get there if we don’t start mandating some sort of hand flying regime……….happy to be challenged but this has been an issue that has been going on for years and the EK incident in questions shows that things are nowhere near getting better.
I’d be interested to hear what other airlines are doing to address these issues. Even with reasonably progressive policy we’re not there yet.
I don’t know how we’re ever going to get there if we don’t start mandating some sort of hand flying regime……….happy to be challenged but this has been an issue that has been going on for years and the EK incident in questions shows that things are nowhere near getting better.
I’d be interested to hear what other airlines are doing to address these issues. Even with reasonably progressive policy we’re not there yet.
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I acknowledge that reliance on automation and attrition of flying skills may be an issue but the question we should be asking, is aviation safer or not? How many accidents have been caused by pilots gung-hoing it manually?
Manual flying accident
An extreme example but I am sure I make my point.
Manual flying accident
An extreme example but I am sure I make my point.
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Originally Posted by Kennytheking
I acknowledge that reliance on automation and attrition of flying skills may be an issue but the question we should be asking, is aviation safer or not? How many accidents have been caused by pilots gung-hoing it manually?
Manual flying accident
An extreme example but I am sure I make my point.
Manual flying accident
An extreme example but I am sure I make my point.
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Originally Posted by cosmiccomet
The main problem is not the automation itself. The problem is limiting pilots about manual flying the aircraft, losing confidence in our flying skills. Moreover, when something goes wrong with the automation at low altitude instead of disconnecting, manual flying to a safe altitude/path, and then figure it out what happens....we can see pilots trying to solve the problem with the FCU or the MCU.
i have seen people who where sceared to takeover manually because the thought it’s going to be flagged in the QR-data and he(she) had to explain it later to the bosses, who are on the other hand are not interested in someone’s from the flight deck comment. If you have ever met a training manager or a chief pilot in that company, he would know he das made a judgment already based on the data without your input. U just go there to receive the blame, nothing else. U most cases they had the warning letter ready without hearing you.
As EK does not train people to make decisions, rather using automation only, yes people will be scared of taking automation out off the game and solve a problem old school with pure pilot skills.
Hand flying
The thought about automation being used too much is NOT a new idea.
Back in 1965 in Australia I was an F/O on the all new B727-100 and flew with some very experienced " old salts " some of whom started flying in the late 30's and some WW2 pilots.
One old fella used to make me hand fly the B727 all the way from take off to top of climb and from top of descent right until leaving the runway after landing.
He stated that if I did not keep up my hand flying skills I would soon lose them because of all of this new " automation ". His logic still applies to using Flight Directors as well as auto pilot.
Oh How right he was and I mostly followed his method even when I became a Capt. and also made my trainees do it quite often. I reckon it really kept my skills and scans honed!!!
It did really bother me to see pilots bunging the Auto Pilot in just after gear retraction and only taking it out on short final. Their hand flying skills were almost non existent !!!
This EK incident and so many others like it points to the need to do a lot more hands on flying.
It's as simple as pushing the auto pilot disconnect button and disconnecting the flight director as well and having a go.
It's very obvious that lot's more need to try it.
Back in 1965 in Australia I was an F/O on the all new B727-100 and flew with some very experienced " old salts " some of whom started flying in the late 30's and some WW2 pilots.
One old fella used to make me hand fly the B727 all the way from take off to top of climb and from top of descent right until leaving the runway after landing.
He stated that if I did not keep up my hand flying skills I would soon lose them because of all of this new " automation ". His logic still applies to using Flight Directors as well as auto pilot.
Oh How right he was and I mostly followed his method even when I became a Capt. and also made my trainees do it quite often. I reckon it really kept my skills and scans honed!!!
It did really bother me to see pilots bunging the Auto Pilot in just after gear retraction and only taking it out on short final. Their hand flying skills were almost non existent !!!
This EK incident and so many others like it points to the need to do a lot more hands on flying.
It's as simple as pushing the auto pilot disconnect button and disconnecting the flight director as well and having a go.
It's very obvious that lot's more need to try it.
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Isn’t the rotate conducted by looking outside - as it has been since Wilbur and Orville ventured into the air, or is this no longer part of endorsement/transition training at EK?
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Originally Posted by RodH
The thought about automation being used too much is NOT a new idea.
Back in 1965 in Australia I was an F/O on the all new B727-100 and flew with some very experienced " old salts " some of whom started flying in the late 30's and some WW2 pilots.
One old fella used to make me hand fly the B727 all the way from take off to top of climb and from top of descent right until leaving the runway after landing.
He stated that if I did not keep up my hand flying skills I would soon lose them because of all of this new " automation ". His logic still applies to using Flight Directors as well as auto pilot.
Oh How right he was and I mostly followed his method even when I became a Capt. and also made my trainees do it quite often. I reckon it really kept my skills and scans honed!!!
It did really bother me to see pilots bunging the Auto Pilot in just after gear retraction and only taking it out on short final. Their hand flying skills were almost non existent !!!
This EK incident and so many others like it points to the need to do a lot more hands on flying.
It's as simple as pushing the auto pilot disconnect button and disconnecting the flight director as well and having a go.
It's very obvious that lot's more need to try it.
Back in 1965 in Australia I was an F/O on the all new B727-100 and flew with some very experienced " old salts " some of whom started flying in the late 30's and some WW2 pilots.
One old fella used to make me hand fly the B727 all the way from take off to top of climb and from top of descent right until leaving the runway after landing.
He stated that if I did not keep up my hand flying skills I would soon lose them because of all of this new " automation ". His logic still applies to using Flight Directors as well as auto pilot.
Oh How right he was and I mostly followed his method even when I became a Capt. and also made my trainees do it quite often. I reckon it really kept my skills and scans honed!!!
It did really bother me to see pilots bunging the Auto Pilot in just after gear retraction and only taking it out on short final. Their hand flying skills were almost non existent !!!
This EK incident and so many others like it points to the need to do a lot more hands on flying.
It's as simple as pushing the auto pilot disconnect button and disconnecting the flight director as well and having a go.
It's very obvious that lot's more need to try it.
to be honest I don’t see what handling has to do with what happened.
Disconnecting the autopilot can improve your xchecks but if you have your brain disconnected I does mean nothing.
I use automation but as usual I know in advance what happens next.
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Originally Posted by rowdy trousers
Isn’t the rotate conducted by looking outside - as it has been since Wilbur and Orville ventured into the air, or is this no longer part of endorsement/transition training at EK?
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Originally Posted by Willie Nelson
My airline has a reasonably supportive view of manual flying and they back it up with a non punitive view to missed approaches and good culture to go with that but even flying short haul, I could just about count on one hand the amount of crew that have switched off the auto thrust on the A320 let alone the stories I hear from our long haul fleet where “it just never happens” is the constant refrain.
I don’t know how we’re ever going to get there if we don’t start mandating some sort of hand flying regime……….happy to be challenged but this has been an issue that has been going on for years and the EK incident in questions shows that things are nowhere near getting better.
I’d be interested to hear what other airlines are doing to address these issues. Even with reasonably progressive policy we’re not there yet.
I don’t know how we’re ever going to get there if we don’t start mandating some sort of hand flying regime……….happy to be challenged but this has been an issue that has been going on for years and the EK incident in questions shows that things are nowhere near getting better.
I’d be interested to hear what other airlines are doing to address these issues. Even with reasonably progressive policy we’re not there yet.
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Originally Posted by flareflyer
to be honest I don’t see what handling has to do with what happened.
Disconnecting the autopilot can improve your xchecks but if you have your brain disconnected I does mean nothing.
I use automation but as usual I know in advance what happens next.
Disconnecting the autopilot can improve your xchecks but if you have your brain disconnected I does mean nothing.
I use automation but as usual I know in advance what happens next.
mid your Automation is set wrong it won’t safe u. Last option is manual but it needs trained skills.
EK trains pilots to doubt their skills and having doubts in taking over manually is a good option and exactly there sits the problem.
if u in doubt over the actions in a emergency descent you will **** it up. Same applies to manual flying, if you in doubt over the correctness and being in doubt to throw a little SOP overboard (not about your skills, more over the consequences later in the office) you hesitate. Once in that situation you get blocked and things go worse every second.
experienced pilots don’t doubt in their handling, they do what’s required to stay safe, not always beautiful, but safe and at the end this is what counts. Stay safe. passing houses behind a runway is not safe. What’s is more important- the beautiful SOP or to achieve safety
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Originally Posted by flyTheBigFatLady
this is a quite very good attitude, nevertheless things are happing and if they do you need to know what your alternative options are.
mid your Automation is set wrong it won’t safe u. Last option is manual but it needs trained skills.
EK trains pilots to doubt their skills and having doubts in taking over manually is a good option and exactly there sits the problem.
if u in doubt over the actions in a emergency descent you will **** it up. Same applies to manual flying, if you in doubt over the correctness and being in doubt to throw a little SOP overboard (not about your skills, more over the consequences later in the office) you hesitate. Once in that situation you get blocked and things go worse every second.
experienced pilots don’t doubt in their handling, they do what’s required to stay safe, not always beautiful, but safe and at the end this is what counts. Stay safe. passing houses behind a runway is not safe. What’s is more important- the beautiful SOP or to achieve safety
mid your Automation is set wrong it won’t safe u. Last option is manual but it needs trained skills.
EK trains pilots to doubt their skills and having doubts in taking over manually is a good option and exactly there sits the problem.
if u in doubt over the actions in a emergency descent you will **** it up. Same applies to manual flying, if you in doubt over the correctness and being in doubt to throw a little SOP overboard (not about your skills, more over the consequences later in the office) you hesitate. Once in that situation you get blocked and things go worse every second.
experienced pilots don’t doubt in their handling, they do what’s required to stay safe, not always beautiful, but safe and at the end this is what counts. Stay safe. passing houses behind a runway is not safe. What’s is more important- the beautiful SOP or to achieve safety
common sense.
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Originally Posted by FBW390
I don't know EK procedures...Are we sure the 2 relief pilots were in the cockpit during flight preparation? The TO briefing? The TO itself?
Last edited by Murrenfan; 2nd Jan 2022 at 14:16.
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I'm not here to put the blame, but to understand.
A third and a fourth pair of eyes would have helped a lot during flt preparation and the briefing on the SID. They could have spotted the very "wrong" 00000 in the MCP.
With only 2 in the cockpit, at 2 or 3 am as it was the case, a bit less easy...When you're on a flight with 3 or 4 pilots, if I'm relief, I sit in the middle, help my friends, and check too. You see many things from behind...
So, were they all in the cockpit?
A third and a fourth pair of eyes would have helped a lot during flt preparation and the briefing on the SID. They could have spotted the very "wrong" 00000 in the MCP.
With only 2 in the cockpit, at 2 or 3 am as it was the case, a bit less easy...When you're on a flight with 3 or 4 pilots, if I'm relief, I sit in the middle, help my friends, and check too. You see many things from behind...
So, were they all in the cockpit?
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Originally Posted by FBW390
I'm not here to put the blame, but to understand.
A third and a fourth pair of eyes would have helped a lot during flt preparation and the briefing on the SID. They could have spotted the very "wrong" 00000 in the MCP.
With only 2 in the cockpit, at 2 or 3 am as it was the case, a bit less easy...When you're on a flight with 3 or 4 pilots, if I'm relief, I sit in the middle, help my friends, and check too. You see many things from behind...
So, were they all in the cockpit?
A third and a fourth pair of eyes would have helped a lot during flt preparation and the briefing on the SID. They could have spotted the very "wrong" 00000 in the MCP.
With only 2 in the cockpit, at 2 or 3 am as it was the case, a bit less easy...When you're on a flight with 3 or 4 pilots, if I'm relief, I sit in the middle, help my friends, and check too. You see many things from behind...
So, were they all in the cockpit?
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Originally Posted by flareflyer
Probably I have been misunderstood. I did not mean to always use automation. I meant that such a kind of “mistake” has nothing to do with good handling but it has with airmanship and
common sense.
common sense.
still like to blame a
on the Organisation behind all off that, because handling skills are experience and training which both is not given to EK pilots
it simple does help to go throu a manual handling verbally in a 2 hr briefing before a sim and never being able to get the experience of the limits and behavior without having hands on.
if u ask a pilot to do a manual swing over between runways, and expect him to perform correctly the best practice is to do normal manual flow approaches on a regular basis.
with all those gathered skills situation which we talk about are not going to be a big deal at all. Something to think about in the aftermath, yes, to learn from it, yes, but they won’t be any danger
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3am departures are ops normal for EK . All 4 present for pre departure briefing , which includes " if anyone sees something they don't like , SPEAK UP! " don't go down the fatigue worm hole .
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Yet their solution, is to hire more cadets. They advertised just today.
There was an experienced ex-cadet in this one.
And an experienced ex-cadet planted a wheels up 777 in Dubai Airport, not so long ago.
For a pilot to be a 777 FO in the US, he or she has already flown lots of General Aviation, lots of Regional, then more Regional as Captain, then lots of medium range as FO.
Compare the amount of exposure, to that of a Emirati cadet, with 3 landings a month, ILS to ILS fully automated.
Then add the company punitive culture.
And the best is, they stay on denial.
I am positive Emirates will have more of these.
I just hope they get as lucky as with all the other 'incidents', because imagine what could had happened with any of the few last ones.
And the ones that don't come to light.
There was an experienced ex-cadet in this one.
And an experienced ex-cadet planted a wheels up 777 in Dubai Airport, not so long ago.
For a pilot to be a 777 FO in the US, he or she has already flown lots of General Aviation, lots of Regional, then more Regional as Captain, then lots of medium range as FO.
Compare the amount of exposure, to that of a Emirati cadet, with 3 landings a month, ILS to ILS fully automated.
Then add the company punitive culture.
And the best is, they stay on denial.
I am positive Emirates will have more of these.
I just hope they get as lucky as with all the other 'incidents', because imagine what could had happened with any of the few last ones.
And the ones that don't come to light.
