Gulf Air Developments
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40&80. Your example of the Thai Airways Captain is an interesting one and I am not certain whether it reflects the draconian (or even corrupt) nature of the Turkish or Thai legal system, but it is also reflective of the more widely “the unknown laws” of some of the countries we overfly.
I remember reading sometime in the 80’s or 90’s in the US Airline Pilot Association (ALPA)’s magazine “Airline Pilot” an article which begged the question “is an accident a crime?” This is based on the fact that a crew facing an accident or incident in a foreign country may be subject to quite different proceedings than what they are used to in their home country. For example, a US crew in the USA is free to leave the scene of the accident after completing their duties and doing all they can to save the passengers. At the time, if the same crew would have had an accident in France they would be incarcerated until the facts had been established and resolved. This is one of the additional hazards faced by international flight crews.
What are the legal unknowns that await a crew facing an emergency, taking a prudent decision to divert to, say, Yangon or Mandalay, and running off the end of the runway? Or, as in your example, having a severe turbulence encounter while on descent into Khartoum resulting the severe injury or even death of passengers or crew?
I remember reading sometime in the 80’s or 90’s in the US Airline Pilot Association (ALPA)’s magazine “Airline Pilot” an article which begged the question “is an accident a crime?” This is based on the fact that a crew facing an accident or incident in a foreign country may be subject to quite different proceedings than what they are used to in their home country. For example, a US crew in the USA is free to leave the scene of the accident after completing their duties and doing all they can to save the passengers. At the time, if the same crew would have had an accident in France they would be incarcerated until the facts had been established and resolved. This is one of the additional hazards faced by international flight crews.
What are the legal unknowns that await a crew facing an emergency, taking a prudent decision to divert to, say, Yangon or Mandalay, and running off the end of the runway? Or, as in your example, having a severe turbulence encounter while on descent into Khartoum resulting the severe injury or even death of passengers or crew?
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new flights to Yemen and Sri Lanka.
NATIONAL carrier Gulf Air yesterday announced the launch of new flights to Yemen and Sri Lanka.
It will launch its new service to Aden in September, before re-commencing flights to Colombo in October.
Four weekly flights will take place between Bahrain and Aden via Sana'a, while five will take off to Colombo.
It will launch its new service to Aden in September, before re-commencing flights to Colombo in October.
Four weekly flights will take place between Bahrain and Aden via Sana'a, while five will take off to Colombo.
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Shattered cockpit window forces Gulf Air diversion
Shattered cockpit window forces Gulf Air diversion
by ASC Staff on Jul 21, 2010
A Gulf Air plane made an emergency landing in Beirut late on Tuesday evening after the glass in the right side window of the cockpit shattered, Lebanon's National News Agency (NNA) reported.
The captain of the plane, which was en route from Athens to Bahrain, asked Beirut air traffic control chiefs for permission to make an emergency at the Beirut Rafik Hariri International Airport, the agency said.
Gulf Air flight number 042, which was carrying 101 passengers, landed safely at the 9.43pm, it added.
The Airbus 319 plane was at 36,000ft elevation when its captain decided to make the emergency landing, according to NNA.
Source: ASC
by ASC Staff on Jul 21, 2010
A Gulf Air plane made an emergency landing in Beirut late on Tuesday evening after the glass in the right side window of the cockpit shattered, Lebanon's National News Agency (NNA) reported.
The captain of the plane, which was en route from Athens to Bahrain, asked Beirut air traffic control chiefs for permission to make an emergency at the Beirut Rafik Hariri International Airport, the agency said.
Gulf Air flight number 042, which was carrying 101 passengers, landed safely at the 9.43pm, it added.
The Airbus 319 plane was at 36,000ft elevation when its captain decided to make the emergency landing, according to NNA.
Source: ASC
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Columbo on the 320 - again! I guess they will also be selling every seat knowing damn well they can't take a full load - more left behind bags, more complaints.
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i don't care if anyone says that this could have happened to any other airline...because it happened to gulf air!!!!
why can't this airline do anything right???? because it is incapable of doing anything right!!!
when an airline like this constantly continues to jump out of the proverbial pot into the fire, you gotta wonder. what the hell is wrong with gf? let me compile a list. this will not necessarily contribute to the cracked windscreen but like i said, i really don't care, because gf continues to self-destruct/implode, with or without this incident. feel free to add.
1. ill treatment of ALL staff except self-important managers.
2. corrupt managers
3. incompetent commercial planners
4. overworked pilots and engineers
5. zero incentive anywhere, especially with flying crews. callouts a complete joke.
6. finally, gf is as selfish as they come. demanding everyone's life and soul and gives NOTHING of any value back...thinking that remunerating staff is reason enough to treat them like cr@p.
why can't this airline do anything right???? because it is incapable of doing anything right!!!
when an airline like this constantly continues to jump out of the proverbial pot into the fire, you gotta wonder. what the hell is wrong with gf? let me compile a list. this will not necessarily contribute to the cracked windscreen but like i said, i really don't care, because gf continues to self-destruct/implode, with or without this incident. feel free to add.
1. ill treatment of ALL staff except self-important managers.
2. corrupt managers
3. incompetent commercial planners
4. overworked pilots and engineers
5. zero incentive anywhere, especially with flying crews. callouts a complete joke.
6. finally, gf is as selfish as they come. demanding everyone's life and soul and gives NOTHING of any value back...thinking that remunerating staff is reason enough to treat them like cr@p.
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Now now.....Brassplate u need to chill. Seriously do the decisions that our managment make really bother u so much u spend hours up at night? Serious we had a window crack big deal!!! **** happens in aviation, to us and others!! My previous airline had much worse window crack and no one cried about it. As far as imcompetence goes ur right but chill, take ur pay check have a beer or if it bothers u that much apply to management or leave cause i guarantee u are not gonna change anything by complaining on PPRUNE
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Hey guys, I've been reading this forum for a while now but have not been inclined to add my two cents until right now. Some people here are going a little overboard with the accusations of this airline, people really need to calm down and not get so over excited with insignificant news. A cracked windshield can happen to anyone at anytime, it is certainly not an indication of an airlines health, if anything the manufacturer should be questioned. Whatever may be said about management i know for a fact, from pilots, that Gulf Air's pilot and cabin crew training is right up there and they handle these situations well.
I have lived in Bahrain for a long time and I know that with very little to do around the island gossip is everyone's favorite pastime, but just remember that you hear only about Gulf Air's mishaps in the GDN/Tribune/Arabic papers because its the national airline, if they were to report on technical/passenger/flight issues of all the airlines around the world they would need another paper altogether. I know for a fact, that a plane somewhere in the world (almost everyday) will blow a tire, lose an engine, have an electrical failure, even run off the end of a runway somewhere (albeit not too far off and with no casualties), etc. because that is just how it goes.
Its understandable that the frustration is getting to people but I wonder how many of you are also spreading your doomsday message other places as well. Let me just say one thing; people will not listen to fanatics who predict doom and gloom, on the other hand a well constructed argument with salient points, delivered properly will get listeners. It seems that the traffic on this thread has slowed down because no one really has anything left to say, all the issues have been beaten to death, but please for the sake of the airline, you shouldn't be bad mouthing this airline outside of closed circles and especially not to potential customers, because a lot of people enjoy the service they get on GF, and for those who don't hopefully it will get better. I know that there are A LOT of issues to contribute to bad staff morale but I wonder how much could be attributed to negative rumors and gossip which staff, especially new and junior ones, have to listen to non stop and I wonder what it does to their confidence and performance levels? But hopefully it will get better, because I doubt this country will continue to bleed money into this airline but I also doubt they would let it die.
I have lived in Bahrain for a long time and I know that with very little to do around the island gossip is everyone's favorite pastime, but just remember that you hear only about Gulf Air's mishaps in the GDN/Tribune/Arabic papers because its the national airline, if they were to report on technical/passenger/flight issues of all the airlines around the world they would need another paper altogether. I know for a fact, that a plane somewhere in the world (almost everyday) will blow a tire, lose an engine, have an electrical failure, even run off the end of a runway somewhere (albeit not too far off and with no casualties), etc. because that is just how it goes.
Its understandable that the frustration is getting to people but I wonder how many of you are also spreading your doomsday message other places as well. Let me just say one thing; people will not listen to fanatics who predict doom and gloom, on the other hand a well constructed argument with salient points, delivered properly will get listeners. It seems that the traffic on this thread has slowed down because no one really has anything left to say, all the issues have been beaten to death, but please for the sake of the airline, you shouldn't be bad mouthing this airline outside of closed circles and especially not to potential customers, because a lot of people enjoy the service they get on GF, and for those who don't hopefully it will get better. I know that there are A LOT of issues to contribute to bad staff morale but I wonder how much could be attributed to negative rumors and gossip which staff, especially new and junior ones, have to listen to non stop and I wonder what it does to their confidence and performance levels? But hopefully it will get better, because I doubt this country will continue to bleed money into this airline but I also doubt they would let it die.
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a well constructed argument with salient points, delivered properly will get listeners.
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Airmann,
Couldn't agree more. But hey, you've got to know that rumours, negativity, doom and gloom predictions may all be dusted away only if we are involved in factual developments and clearly acknowledged of decisions and allowed to contribute to the decision making process, at least when it comes to issues concerning us and our future. I assume that most of us here are not asking for too much really. Let it be the least a transparent organization and see how different could things be.
Probably the management needs a similar post like that one of yours but with a slightly different wording.
Good luck.
Couldn't agree more. But hey, you've got to know that rumours, negativity, doom and gloom predictions may all be dusted away only if we are involved in factual developments and clearly acknowledged of decisions and allowed to contribute to the decision making process, at least when it comes to issues concerning us and our future. I assume that most of us here are not asking for too much really. Let it be the least a transparent organization and see how different could things be.
Probably the management needs a similar post like that one of yours but with a slightly different wording.
Good luck.
Last edited by WELCO; 23rd Jul 2010 at 10:22. Reason: spelling correction
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Thanks for the responses, they are exactly the same points brought up before, again the forum has come full circle, it has happened before, here is my reply:
Mike.Park: You are right mate, for some people this is their only outlet. Here is the problem though: coming to a safe, and anonymous place to vent does not put out the source of the frustration, it is a temporary fix and a lost cause so long as ideas and opinions (and in some part down right facts) stay in peoples heads and on pprune forums. It only goes so far, and then we all hit a brick wall because for the most part people cannot take their their frustrations, ideas opinions and have them heard out in the real world.
That being said, for those of you on this forum who simply want a place to vent and don't really care at the end of the day I'm certainly not going to be the one to stand in your way. ya it seems that life is hard enough as it is working in gulf air, and you do have a right to a place like this to get your frustrations out. Respect.
For the rest, Gulf Air is an airline steeped in history that has been hijacked. The Hijackers try to keep people down and certainly don't want your opinions to be heard. It seems that they are sandwiched between upper management and the general workforce, but then that is where the real power has always come from. An individual who tries to speak up will be crushed quicly
It will take nothing less than an army of people, who position themselves perfectly within the company and in Bahraini society in order to change the general flow of things. I'm just surprised that no one from the Bahraini elite has taken more action especially the way this company is bleeding their bank accounts, maybe they are the ones the frustrations should be revealed to, do they know whats going on or are the hijackers keeping them in the dark? Either way something will have to give, because I doubt this course can continue.
When did Gulf Air become an Epic Greek Tragedy?
Mike.Park: You are right mate, for some people this is their only outlet. Here is the problem though: coming to a safe, and anonymous place to vent does not put out the source of the frustration, it is a temporary fix and a lost cause so long as ideas and opinions (and in some part down right facts) stay in peoples heads and on pprune forums. It only goes so far, and then we all hit a brick wall because for the most part people cannot take their their frustrations, ideas opinions and have them heard out in the real world.
That being said, for those of you on this forum who simply want a place to vent and don't really care at the end of the day I'm certainly not going to be the one to stand in your way. ya it seems that life is hard enough as it is working in gulf air, and you do have a right to a place like this to get your frustrations out. Respect.
For the rest, Gulf Air is an airline steeped in history that has been hijacked. The Hijackers try to keep people down and certainly don't want your opinions to be heard. It seems that they are sandwiched between upper management and the general workforce, but then that is where the real power has always come from. An individual who tries to speak up will be crushed quicly
It will take nothing less than an army of people, who position themselves perfectly within the company and in Bahraini society in order to change the general flow of things. I'm just surprised that no one from the Bahraini elite has taken more action especially the way this company is bleeding their bank accounts, maybe they are the ones the frustrations should be revealed to, do they know whats going on or are the hijackers keeping them in the dark? Either way something will have to give, because I doubt this course can continue.
When did Gulf Air become an Epic Greek Tragedy?
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IMHO...It all started to roll downhill in August1976...
When "New Sign or Resign" contracts were forced down the throats of happy and hard working Gulf Air expat.staff.
August 1976...When the Pilot Association (Union) was terminated and management and technical crews and engineering staff thus never got to communicate ever again.
I recall hearing "Pilot input is neither necessary, desired or required!"from the same operations manager (British) that pushed the "New Contracts" through.
August 1976..When the expats. pilots "Provident Fund (Pension fund) was closed" and pilots and company no longer were required to contribute to it.
August 1976...When a memo....
To Gulf Air expat. F/o pilots stated "All future Captains would be Gulf nationals"
If none were available BA or Cathay retired at 55y would be hired on 5year contracts.
Some were at 12year Captain pay increment.
This boosted BA index linked UK pensions with inflation at 14% to 22% a year.
This managed to upset nearly all the Gulf Air pilots..Captains and F/os.
I think around 80% of the expat F/Os resigned in two years after reading that memo.
So if that was managements intentions... that bit worked..however there do still seem to be some expat Captains around even after 34 years.
I feel with better management... Gulf Air... if they had managed to honour terms and conditions in expat. contracts... and also shown Zero tolerance to corruption in the many and various departments.... the present Gulf Air would easily now be bigger and more profitable and a better company to work for than EK.
So for me.... Gulf Air started to die and go down hill with the new "Sign or Resign" contracts in 1976.
From that point onwards my trust and respect and enthusiasm also slowly died. I saw what I considered mistake after mistake made leading to the dreadful A320 incident in August 2000....then that era and poison that started it all in 1976 was finally over.
Over in the way many of us thought it would... but hoped it would not.
Thankfully as I was retired at 60 in May 2000 so I was not there to witness the effect this crash had on the community and Gulf Air staff.
A Brand New era has began....several new management teams have already passed through...hopefully it will be better this time and lessons have been learned and it will not be allowed to happen all over again.
When "New Sign or Resign" contracts were forced down the throats of happy and hard working Gulf Air expat.staff.
August 1976...When the Pilot Association (Union) was terminated and management and technical crews and engineering staff thus never got to communicate ever again.
I recall hearing "Pilot input is neither necessary, desired or required!"from the same operations manager (British) that pushed the "New Contracts" through.
August 1976..When the expats. pilots "Provident Fund (Pension fund) was closed" and pilots and company no longer were required to contribute to it.
August 1976...When a memo....
To Gulf Air expat. F/o pilots stated "All future Captains would be Gulf nationals"
If none were available BA or Cathay retired at 55y would be hired on 5year contracts.
Some were at 12year Captain pay increment.
This boosted BA index linked UK pensions with inflation at 14% to 22% a year.
This managed to upset nearly all the Gulf Air pilots..Captains and F/os.
I think around 80% of the expat F/Os resigned in two years after reading that memo.
So if that was managements intentions... that bit worked..however there do still seem to be some expat Captains around even after 34 years.
I feel with better management... Gulf Air... if they had managed to honour terms and conditions in expat. contracts... and also shown Zero tolerance to corruption in the many and various departments.... the present Gulf Air would easily now be bigger and more profitable and a better company to work for than EK.
So for me.... Gulf Air started to die and go down hill with the new "Sign or Resign" contracts in 1976.
From that point onwards my trust and respect and enthusiasm also slowly died. I saw what I considered mistake after mistake made leading to the dreadful A320 incident in August 2000....then that era and poison that started it all in 1976 was finally over.
Over in the way many of us thought it would... but hoped it would not.
Thankfully as I was retired at 60 in May 2000 so I was not there to witness the effect this crash had on the community and Gulf Air staff.
A Brand New era has began....several new management teams have already passed through...hopefully it will be better this time and lessons have been learned and it will not be allowed to happen all over again.
Last edited by 40&80; 24th Jul 2010 at 02:28.
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Great post 40&80. But rest assured, lessons are still not learnt. Corruptions have emerged sky high albiet people are more aware of them today than they were years ago. Its more in the obvious side and the most regretful part is that nothing is done about it and we are all witnessing the slow sinking of GF. Lost a lot of good people to other airlines, lost a lot of loyal passengers due to our " highly renovated cabins with the top of the range entertainment systems ". Our neighbouring airlines are just preying on our passengers and no doubt they are winning by offering them better facilities and more important lower fares.
Last edited by T O G A Boy; 25th Jul 2010 at 12:49.
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40&80
Guess you are referring to Bruce S****** in 1976 the British Ops Manager.
Guess you stayed in GF to the bitter end whilst a lot of us saw the light by
95/96 when a mass exodus of Captains left mostly to SIA, in my case as I thought GF was in its final death throes, through corruption and the inability of the four owner countries to agree anything.
Guess you are referring to Bruce S****** in 1976 the British Ops Manager.
Guess you stayed in GF to the bitter end whilst a lot of us saw the light by
95/96 when a mass exodus of Captains left mostly to SIA, in my case as I thought GF was in its final death throes, through corruption and the inability of the four owner countries to agree anything.
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Great Post, 40&80. Gypsy's comments, too, full on.
Just had a much promised and finally executed beer with a chum of mine, forced out last year and would have joined the cull this year, anyway. He was told ,upon joining by Dick Hughes (Crew Control) that Gf was "not a proper Airline, rather, a flying club and should be treated as such. Good bunch of guys, bit of a laugh, reasonably happy flying". Once you started thinking that it was a proper airline, properly structured, talented management etc, you were doomed.
My mate discovered exactly why the pocket of funding was limitless. Those opportunties can be funded through other channels and keeping GF afloat is no longer necessary. The corrupt know that too, have lined, or are lining personal pockets quickly before running away too.
What a damned shame.
I remember sitting in a charter jet,hold point at LHR, when a mighty GF VC10 greased, turned off and headed for the gates. My skipper said to me "THAT is THE Airline to try to get into" ! No longer, and what a tradgedy.
Good luck to all still stuck there. Remember, you are "Commercial Pilots". You do this for Hire or Reward. It matters not what is painted on the side of a plane. Be loyal only to your Licence. Once you see the light (and it must be dimming ,even for the blinkerred), leave & take your professionalism elsewhere.
Just had a much promised and finally executed beer with a chum of mine, forced out last year and would have joined the cull this year, anyway. He was told ,upon joining by Dick Hughes (Crew Control) that Gf was "not a proper Airline, rather, a flying club and should be treated as such. Good bunch of guys, bit of a laugh, reasonably happy flying". Once you started thinking that it was a proper airline, properly structured, talented management etc, you were doomed.
My mate discovered exactly why the pocket of funding was limitless. Those opportunties can be funded through other channels and keeping GF afloat is no longer necessary. The corrupt know that too, have lined, or are lining personal pockets quickly before running away too.
What a damned shame.
I remember sitting in a charter jet,hold point at LHR, when a mighty GF VC10 greased, turned off and headed for the gates. My skipper said to me "THAT is THE Airline to try to get into" ! No longer, and what a tradgedy.
Good luck to all still stuck there. Remember, you are "Commercial Pilots". You do this for Hire or Reward. It matters not what is painted on the side of a plane. Be loyal only to your Licence. Once you see the light (and it must be dimming ,even for the blinkerred), leave & take your professionalism elsewhere.
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I remember sitting in a charter jet,hold point at LHR, when a mighty GF VC10 greased, turned off and headed for the gates. My skipper said to me "THAT is THE Airline to try to get into" ! No longer, and what a tradgedy.
- Fair enough. The airline I grew up wanting to fly for does exist anymore (hasn't in about 2 decades).
- I dreamed of flying a Boeing 727 or a 747. If this were to happen now, I know I would be pretty down on my career fortune (cause it would probably be at night cargo operations out of sub-Saharan Africa)
- Lufthansa pilots complain that things aren't what they used to be like
- Cathay Pacific pilots complain that they are on the "B" scale or "C" scale
- Former Pan Am employees' eyes glaze over when they speak of the memory of their airline
- US airline pilots speak about the rape & pillage of their pension plans
- Other state-owned airline employees tell delightful tales of 7 day lay-overs in Tokyo, Sydney, Rome or Curacao years ago while the stews fought over which pilot they get to sleep with.
- An old Aer Lingus Captain muses during his retirement party that, back when he started in aviation, sex was safe and flying was dangerous.
- Kids who dreamed of flying a Jumbo Jet or the Concorde for British Airways are applying to Ryanair or Easy Jet.
"Caveat Emptor" warnings abound on this Forum, as well as others, about the risks of joining Royal Brunei, Singapore Airlines, Emirates or Qatar Airways. Even the corporate world does not necessarily imply that you are on the golf course in Hawaii for 14 days while the boss is on his yacht or deep-sea fishing.
Last edited by Panama Jack; 27th Jul 2010 at 14:09.
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Ouch. That's me told. Good summize though, PJ, and very true.Looks like it has been, pretty much down hill. Glad I had the best. What a shame that the new entrants' expectations are unlikely to be fulfilled, then !
This forum, though, is about GF and it is still disappointing to note a particularly sad demise as so many pilots seemed to have, genuinely, enjoyed time spent there.
This forum, though, is about GF and it is still disappointing to note a particularly sad demise as so many pilots seemed to have, genuinely, enjoyed time spent there.