EK or not EK this is the problem... and you are not helping!!

[furbpilot]

I did the interview, I got the call, I signed the contract and I should join soon.
Still I have a couple of weeks to resign from my present employer and some doubts. I have friends working there telling me that they are doing ok but I'm been reading this forum for quite a while now and I see lots of complaints. So where is the truth?
I did realize that the nicknames posting are more or less always the same 10 or 15.
So are you trying to descourage person like me ( not a DEC... just a "old" F/O) from joining or this is just a strategy to obtain something ? Since you complain you are working to much the first would be really stupid .So what?
Somebody told me that may be is not the perfect place but still I have to make the cubic root of what I reed on this forum to get a real picture. Still sometime I don't know who to thrust.
Is there anybody willing to help me honestly to take this decision?
I don't want to find my self bonded and complaining. I have a lot of complaints with my present employer ( this company really sucks!!!) but at least I'm home a not 2500 miles away in desert.
So please can somebody answer honestly the following questions:

1) roster on 777 is acceptable and you are getting enough rest and days off?
2) since I 'm not so far away I would be able sometime to commute home?

This is are my real concerns.I'm not afraid of working but my first priority is my health both phisical and mental, career and money comes second because this would be worthless without the first.I know my self.
Honestly speaking I was very well impressed during the interview It has been a very nice experience.Dubai it self may be is not the best place I have ever seen but I like multiracial environment and beaches.
Anybody willing to help?

[Dirigible]

Furb,
I don't often post and actually think the package is reasonable (hardhat on and ducking) but to help out with your decision I will add my two cents worth:
Enough rest / days off: Definitely not, the Boeing guys have recently had it better than the 'bus but are gearing up for a busy summer. Much back of the night trips, longest trip 8 days away. The fatigue model is a joke, and the doctors themselves know it. Your health will be affected, as acknowledged recently by a crew circular put out by management. (They blamed it on us pilots getting older!)
Commuting: Not feasible esp in view of the fatigue as explained above. Have tried to do it for a year, and cannot continue. A very few do commute, but most I know are out of here when they can as not sustainable long term.
Do some searches on both these issues as they have been discussed thoroughly.
Oh, and the multiculturalism and beach life being great? You may be interested in a letter to a local (7Days) newspaper that was published today which I have pasted below. I wouldn't have my wife and kids alone unescorted on a beach.
7Days
How to stop perverts on the beach at Jumeirah
Monday, 06 March 2006
I’ve had an interesting few last visits to the beach, near the Hilton. Last visit there was a man who seemed to have a severe case of Parkinsons (please I mean this in nicest way as I can’t really say in this column what he was doing) going on in his right trouser pocket.
This problem seemed to get worse whenever a woman in a bikini walked past. When I looked at him to let him I knew what he was doing, he just didn’t care, he kept on going. What is the right thing to do about this?
Then he had two mates turn up with a camera, they then pretended to take photos of each other and surprise surprise, it was when a woman in a bikini was walking straight behind them.
And to top that off, one of them tried to grab my 18 month old daughter. He then asked if he could take a photo of her. Now as a parent, you can understand how this made us feel.
The visit before that horrific one, I spun around to find a man taking a photo of a female sunbather. I ran up the beach and told him in no uncertain terms to get off the beach and don’t come back, the man ran away.
To make the day even more spoilt, his mate then tried to get a shot of me putting my clothes back on (I was a mess after witnessing what I just witnessed).
I caught him as he was setting his phone up and taking aim – I ran over to him and stood close to his face and told him that if I caught him using his mobile for anything except to make a call, I’d be calling the police and having him arrested.
Can someone please tell me where my family and I can go so as not to have this kind of thing go on. I love the beach, but have told my husband I will never visit it again under those circumstances.
In Australia all our beaches are patrolled not only by lifeguards, but by policeman as well, and anyone caught doing any of the above would be arrested, tried in court and fined accordingly.
Something needs to be done about this – tourists will eventually cotton on and this issue will be awful for tourism.
Disgruntled, Dubai

[145qrh]

Everyone has their own reasons for joining Emirates, all I would say is that anyone joining now will only have themselves to blame.

Enough has been said on PPrune,and yes you are correct, mostly by the usual suspects.....does'nt stop it being ,for all intents and purposes ...100% correct.....

Management lies, low moral, working your arse off for less money....what more can I add that hasn't already been put much more eloquently than I could say..

Run, and don't look back...Bit like marriage,the doubts don't get better, just worse...

[Dale Hardale]

Hi,

I am also not one of the usual 10 or 15.

Dubai has a very shiny outside, but the inside is a sharp contrast. The letter quoted previously is very symptomatic of the reality here.

The questions you are asking seem to indicate that reasonable doubt still exists.

If you value your health and want to retain some semblance of a decent lifestyle, then I would certainly NOT be coming here to Dubai.

The combination of very difficult work circumstances and a society where no social or commercial conscience exists should trigger alarm bells in anyone thinking of moving here.

I would think that commuting is practically impossible. The 777 rosters are about to follow the lead of the airbus into never before seen flying hours per month.

It doesn't take a genius to work out that with ever increasing crew shortages, this will mean over the top work patterns for those that are here and those that make the mistake of joining in the future.

I have never seen so many guys actively pursuing work elsewhere. In the 10 years I have been here, this attitude is something completely new.

Ask yourself why.

[Shake]

I guess I am one of the usual suspects and leave this month.

1. 777 roster was busy and getting worse. Days off, perhaps 8/month 2 at a time, are more for recovery than for quality time with the family. So NO, not enough rest or days off to cope and your health WILL suffer.

2. Commute? Doesn't matter where you come from you may as well live on the moon.

And for what? Quality of life? Financial reward? All relative at the end of the day, for me I found neither in Dubai or working for EK.

EK treat you like you owe them something, that you needed the job and have nowhere else to go. Of course this change in attitude only takes place once you're here and have burnt the bridge back home.

There is more than enough info available to make a much more informed decision than I did, that at least is true.

[critical winge]

ASK ME?

Ask me your most dreaded questions about why you should or should not come and you will get some honest answers. See the latest EK Poll on PPRuNe. It is a stepping stone, but coming now is as good as joining as a second officer in terms of promotion and DUBAI, you won't believe it until you see it. And then you wont believe it could really be that bad! Remember, travel shows, travel agents and property brokers (Abroad) are all paid BIG money to direct the public towards Dubai (thats the way commercialism works). The point is there is a lot of money here to paint a very rosey picture of the place "over there"(Dubai). There probably isn't 1 person who works here, or their spouse who hasn't got issues with the place, what message do you want your kids to see? It's your choice Amigo, you have been warned, if racism isn't your thing then dont come, YOU WILL BE ON THE END OF IT!!

[mupepe]

my view

Originally Posted by Dale Hardale

Hi,
It doesn't take a genius to work out that with ever increasing crew shortages, this will mean over the top work patterns for those that are here and those that make the mistake of joining in the future.
Ask yourself why.

interresting post, I'm also still in doubt as got a call to go for an interview very soon..
I've two fellow collegues who passed the test last february and got "months" lapse time to think before signing the contract (extended on their request for private purpose) ,like obviously no rush/no lack of crew with EK.
I've to decide within 10 days for an interview in end of april and most probably going to the ground course by August this year if getting the ticket.
Is there real shortage of crew there ?

[Outta Heresoon]

Originally Posted by mupepe

interresting post, I'm also still in doubt as got a call to go for an interview very soon..
I've two fellow collegues who passed the test last february and got "months" lapse time to think before signing the contract (extended on their request for private purpose) ,like obviously no rush/no lack of crew with EK.

Mupepe... they can't afford to let any potential yes candidate to slip away and are far more flexible than the past.Many man hours involved in the selection process with limited men.

Originally Posted by mupepe

I've to decide within 10 days for an interview in end of april and most probably going to the ground course by August this year if getting the ticket.
Is there real shortage of crew there ?

YES!!

[Zomp]

I am here for 7 years now and if you are not with the worst ever company than I recommend you to stay where you are.
The good days of EK are over, until 3 years ago it was great nobody ever left unless he retired, now the company even tries to hide from us how many resign per WEEK.
Some F/O's are stuck here because they are too old to start again at the bottom of the seniority with another company, but forget a quick command in EK, I guess if you join now its at least 8 years.
good luck with your decision

[mckaj]

I have been here for two years and have a lot of mixed feeling about the place and the job.

Dubai:
- It’s a city build on disrespect, double standards and rude racist people. I have never met so many stupid, unintelligent, rude, disrespectful, smelly, lying and cheating people in my long life.
- If you have a nice place to live and good people next door then your spare time can be good as long as you stay away from the roads and any place where you have to stay in line with smelly people and rude Arabs jumping the line.
- Weather is good 8 months out of the year.

The Job:
- it’s a job in an environment with absolutely no moral, joy or team spirit.
- Not enough rest
- The company will do everything they can to push and push and push you to do anything whether its legal or not.
- You feel overworked and unsafe most of the time
- It will make you physically sick in the long run (at least on the Bus). Just call the clinic and ask about health problems for the 340 pilots.

BUT it could be the best place to work if only few things would change to the better i.e. more rest, better bidding system, more support from the management, increase in pay and a pension plan actually benefit you.

cheers

[Not from here]

Have to agree with a lot being said I am one of the 330/3340 guys and in the last 18 months have been sitting just under 900 hrs. In Feb took 8 days leave and still flew 77.5hrs stick, which included trip to JFK and Auckland I have now hit 100 hrs in 24 days and have finally been given some days off.Fatigue yes.
Are rostering system is awful very little satisfaction, unless its you top bid month so 2 months out of 10, some satisfaction, days off are in blocks of 1 and 2 days, they are even using your leave as the preflight rest for ULR trips, so they can squeeze more flying out of you.
I personally don’t mind Dubai apart from the Traffic.
But in the 8 years I have been here the last 2 have been pretty tough, and are management really doesn’t care. Lots of Talk no action.
Good luck with your decision. I would think very carefully if you have a half way decent job!!!!

[Mack Tuck]

If EK were to establish bases out of Dubai I would probably stay until retirement however this has been an ongoing issue and at least one senior Captain who was pushing for bases for years finally gave up commuting and has moved his family back to Dubai as the commute was impractical.
Management continue to say NO to basings although many other airlines are adopting this practice as it is an effective use of manpower and also popular with employees. EK dont appear to be interested in improving our lifestyle.
This brings me to the concept of satisficing, i.e. what is satisfactory or enough? The ongoing cost-cutting measures here are indicative of a carrier bordering on insolvency however EK is one of the more profitable airlines in the world (a large reason for this is their labour cost base). This is typical of not only EK but Dubai in general; there is never 'enough'; there must be more. Business owners here could generate healthy (largely tax free) returns whilst providing employee satisfaction through salaries and conditions which are in turn beneficial to society as a whole. Many businesses though, continue to seek maximum returns at the expense of their employees. The situation is similar with landlords and rental charges.
As far as safety is concerned if your wife or daughter is abducted off the street and gang raped expect the perpetrators to get 2 years in the can and probably get out early if they can recite parts of the Koran.
In our countries immigrants are generally treated in much the same way as anyone else. The locals here appear to consider themselves superior to us; they certainly have more money (given the underlying reason for the wealth) although I would argue that that in itself does not form the basis for superiority over other people. It does get irritating.
Try www.7days.ae and check out some of the letters for a broader perspective.
I am happiest when a) out of here on holiday and b) at home and off the roads as it is so stressful.
Good luck with your decision.

[ratpoison]

Dubai:
- It’s a city build on disrespect, double standards and rude racist people. I have never met so many stupid, unintelligent, rude, disrespectful, smelly, lying and cheating people in my long life.
- If you have a nice place to live and good people next door then your spare time can be good as long as you stay away from the roads and any place where you have to stay in line with smelly people and rude Arabs jumping the line.

Oh, I get so emotional when I read such POETRY. Bloody well said I must say.

[Backwater]

Furbpilot,
Don't be concerned that you might be reading the opinions of a disaffected few. I can say with certainty that the opinions expressed on this thread and others on this forum are reflected in cockpit conversations on 95% (est) of my flights for the past 18 months. The company has lost the respect of the pilot workforce.

[furbpilot]

Hi again guys
I'm reading your answer with deep interest ans I thank you all.
But yesterday I managed to get an original roster (february ) from a friend of mine on the 330 ( that seems to be as far as I understood the "worst") and I counted 14 days off, nice 48 hrs layovers, some short haul flights in the region strings of 5 and 6 days off togheter. I would say nothing scary and much much better of what I got now.
Would you like to see my European Domestic airline roster? Would you like to know the fascist ,mafious attitude of the guys I'm dealing with now? You want me to tell you I'm in the penalty box because I switch off my phone in days off ? Do you want a picture of the incredibly poor level of training, maintenance, organization, and overall professionality I see around me now
About traffic and criminality, have you ever been to Naples?
So you have the right to complain but why discourage people. Most probably when I 'll join the company I'll join also the chorus of complaint because I know it works like that but still you are not giving the real picture.
May be... more pilots, less credit hours? I don't know... just an idea but I still think you are not helping guys

[max AB]

Furbie, I wont comment whether you should join EK or not but has your friend been at EK more than a few minutes? If so ask him what he thinks. If he is 330 only then he has joined less than 14mths. The 330 is the "best" roster after the 310. After at least 12mths you go onto the 340 and that combination is another story altogether. As is the 777 from now on.

[Mack Tuck]

Furbie you arent listening. There are issues with EK as with all carriers. The main thrust of my points and many others contained on this thread and others in the same forum is Dubai. I would stay with EK if I could be based elsewhere and so would many others (many of the ones who have already left).

[furbpilot]

Well may be you are right.
So why don't some body of you send me your roster via e-mail ( may be a 777 one) so that I can see it with my eyes.That would be simple don't you think? Everybody here is anonimous so there will be no disclosure of reserved information right? I'll be waiting

here is the adress [email protected]

[Outta Heresoon]

Just take the job. you are obviously trying to convince yourself that it's ok, perhaps better than what you have now. A copy of one man's roster will not give you the "big picture" of what life is like here, so just come with the perception it's utopia. Most here did just that until the bittersweet of reality sets in.

[Zomp]

just come and join, you will see during the training when one of the famous oz trainers takes care of you. you don't listen like many new joiners within the last 2 years guess you gonna get what you asked for.