EK or not EK this is the problem... and you are not helping!!

[puff m'call]

FURBPILOT, you really are NOT listening to what these well informed people are telling you, are you?

Have you heard of the expression " Out of the frying pan, into the fire"

If you have one ounce of bloody sence then stay right where you are!!! :

[furbpilot]

Sorry folks but I don't know what you mean with "oz"? Told you I'm just a south european pilot that somebody I read would classifie as C categorY
By the way,what really I don't understand is why don' t you leave and for example to.. Ryanair or Easyjet they are strongly looking for pilots. You will be based in some nice european city with all western civilization comfort. Highly experienced pilots like you wouldn't find any problem with that.
May be the idea of waking up everyday at 4.15 for 5 days in row and flyng four stratches a day every for five day in a row to same destination for five day in a row may be with four deicing and four cat III approaches in winter for five days in a row , with 30 min turnaround between each of the 20 leg is not appealing ?
Still people is going to fly there. I'm flying for a company like that.I'm not trying to convince my self i'm trying to understand. Our category is always complaining every where in any company in the wolrld. Why don't start acting. I don't like the place i work for and actually I don't like the country I live in even if I was born here . So i'm trying to leave. Why if you are so tired you don't get sick. It a safety issue. You say they lost respect for pilot in Emirates.As far as I can say from my very scarce experience i believe that respect for pilots has been lost every where. And I think that is our own fault.
If i'll come and I will not like it I will leave again point. Still waiting for that roster. By the way is there anybody even only partially positive on Emirates among the surfer of this forum?

[145qrh]

Seems like furb has made up his mind.

" There ain't them so blind as them that won't listen."

D Trotter

[mckaj]

Furbpilot

330/340 roster:

81 hrs in November
115 hrs in December
49 hrs in with 17 days leave in january
88 hrs in february
96 hrs in March

Not complaining but but see for yourself wether this will be somethng for you.

Hence: almost all is night flying and time zones from NYC to Aukland

[puff m'call]

"FURBPILOT" What a prat, don't know why you asked in the first place. Just say "yes" and come along and see for yourself, it seems quiet clear you don't intend to listen.

It all looks very grand at interview, it's supposed to! but in reality mate it's alot different as you WILL find out, so don't say no one told you.

[gtaflyer]

to go or not to go

Furb

ask yourself one question "what if the new outfit turns out to be worse then my present employer"

if it turns out that you do not like Dubai or the airline, then what is plan B get-out plan? do you have one? can you go back to your old employer or are you burning your bridges.

I dont know what your circumstances are but you must have these critical questions answered before you go. Do not expect people to help you. you have to be flexible and adaptable to cope with new surroundings yourself.

I thought i would reply to your thred because i have been through this process twice, once in aviation and once non aviation and realise your dilemma.

gta

[windshear..not again]

Burnt bridges

Burnt bridges are the most costly, if not impossible to repair.

If one has a good rapport with ones company, and can "convince" them to agree to a leave of absense to take up employment with another airline..try that route.. All but impossible in my belief.

Catch is, EK EXPECTS one to resign from your current employers and they will be calling to confim, along with the resignation statement with your company endorsement on it. Not into giving someone a trial basis, not liking it and them allowing them to leave with a handshake.

One has to look through all of the threads on this forum, and weigh it all out logically before commiting to the change. There are the regular culprits who post their dis-satisfaction with one of the most profitable airlines in the world.....But are they wrong? Maybe not.... Too many saying the same thing. It seems discoursging to read this, but maybe it is a warning to those who may have it bad at their current airline, but things can become worse with the desert change.

If you are single, have nothing to loose, young, consider it a transient stop and join.. 3 years can go by quickly enough. After the bond period expires, experience gained, look for something better.

I did my interview, and realized that Dubai is all smoke and mirrors. Though it is the City of Gold, not all that glitters is gold. The lure of the Heavy Metal is tempting, but ask the question of yourself, "are things really that bad where I am?". If you find your self coming up with reasons why you should stay..Then you are probably right.

One of these day I will post my roster here.. But for now, average 65 flight hours, 8-10 days off, sometimes 4 days in a stretch, home almost every night, good tax free salary, quality of life. Not ULR but some decent 4 hour sectors. I would probably have gone nuts sitting in a pressurized aluminum tube for 10 hours. So I'll stay put for now.

Read carefully the posts from the Gentleman who are there living arm in arm with the Arabs... Maybe they are not wrong..Maybe they are..Its up to you to make that final decision.

I'm glad I made the right decision.

[fatigueflyer]

"BUT it could be the best place to work if only few things would change to the better i.e. more rest, better bidding system, more support from the management, increase in pay and a pension plan actually benefit you."

Must be the classic wish list of the year. With an rapidly expanding (totally chaotic) airline rest is only achievable in the bunk of the aircraft. As long as there are clerks fu&king about with the rosters better bidding is a dream. Support from management (say no more!!!). Increase in pay seems about as likely as bacon being a staple diet in this part of the world and pension plan......only if your surname starts with Al.

[vagabond 47]

[quote=furbpilot]Sorry folks but I don't know what you mean with "oz"?

FURBPILOT..........An "OZ" is an American with the **** kicked out of him.


I recall years ago they used to say that about "Kiwis" relative to OZs.

Cheers.

[maddog62]

Furb check your PMs,

mad

[Reverend Doctor Doug]

There is a lot to be learned from BYMONEK and others like him.

If anyone had the time and energy to research years of prooning, you would be able to track to gradual change of position of these guys.

When BYMONEK first started at EK, he was a passionate and loyal employee. We had many discussions about the difference between the perception and the realilty of EK. When BYMONEK was new to EK, to his credit and understandably, he was totally supportive of EK and its right to manage the company as they saw fit, and rather patronising to those of us who had been here a few years and were trying to paint a balanced picture.

Over time though, possibly having been on the wrong end of the shafting stick, BYMONEK has adjusted his view such that he is far less supportive of management than he was several years ago.

I believe this is indicative of the majority of (not all) EK employees. Most come here because they want to. Some come because they have to. Of those that want to come here, they obviously came with a view to a great job and a good future.

There is a constant theme posted by the pro management lobby, who say that the voices on prune are a minority group of trouble makers. I reject this and would suggest that what you see on prune represents a fairly accurate view of morale. Most guys are less than impressed with the EK facade, some are very happy and are looking to a long term stay. My experience and interaction with others would support the poll that has been running as a fair indication of company morale. Last time i looked the split was around 75/25 with the majority being dissatisfied with the company. That rings true to me.

Sure it could be the same guys voting over and over again, but if that is the case you would have to say that is true of the pro EK lobby as well.

My point?

If you are considering EK, it would be worth your effort to look back a few years and compare the opinions of BYMONEK and others from then as to now. I think this genuinely and accurately reflects how most employees opinions evolve over time and may give you an insight into your future.

Appologies to BYMONEK. This is not intended to be an attack on him. It is just that he been a long term and consistent pruner and has continued to use the same name over this period, which implies that he has some integrity and therefore makes his views worth comparing. I believe that the above applies to many EK pruners, myself included. Its just that i think that most have changed their identity several times over the years. This could also be something worth thinking about when considering EK.


Cop U Later

[4HolerPoler]

Great post Rev Doc - thanks for taking the time to compile your post (wish I had that time) - clearly no offense intended - very, very good advice to all the hopefuls - you have your dreams, you bust your butt getting to knock on the door; you have to shove & haul your way through that door and at first you like what you see but then the rose-tint starts to wane. Soon you're cussing what you see & beating on that door to get out. Hey, conditions have changed for most of us; sands are shifting, things are more expensive but take a deeeeep breath & (for the great majority of us) & realize how many aspirant door-knockers would willingly take your seat. Now, you can always give up that seat - that is your choice but remember how bad you wanted that seat a few years back.

The grass is not.................

4HP

[BYMONEK]

Reverend

Firstly, no apology is required. Your post is not far from the truth and indeed sums up the feelings of a great many Pilots in Emirates right now. If anything, perhaps it should be me apologizing for my early 'patronising' posts. It certainly wasn't my intention to appear that way but merely offer my view of how I saw things at the time. I too received patronising and aggressive replies for my views but also many personal PM's from guys looking for a balanced view against the prevalence of negativity. In hindsight, as a newcomer to EK and Dubai, I was probably not the best qualified to offer it.


I suppose the question to ask is, do I have any regrets coming ? Well, the truth is no. Not yet at least. Although I gave up a command,good money and secure(ish) Company, I couldn't have continued there until retirement. Hugely unstable rosters meant quality of life was compromised, days were wasted positioning around UK and staff travel was a joke. There were other issues as well. However, the flying was good fun, relaxed yet professional and you could have a joke and banter with the Cabin Crew. You looked forward to nightstops which were fun and social and above all, we trusted and looked after each other. There was a good team spirit in the Company and we didn't go around dobbing people in it behind their backs! We also, more importantly, had a fairly high trust of our managers and problems were dealt with in a sensible and fair way. The same cannot always be said here i'm afraid.


Although there are still many positives here in both Dubai and Emirates, there are many issues which need addressing. Like Dubai, there is a high element of racism and nepatism which doesn't sit well with many expats. Also, the calibre of some of our middle managers is truly shocking. I stress some because there are some stars amongst the dross. This is sadly true of some trainers. I've met the best here and without doubt the worst. If ever we needed a standards dep't in flight training its now. We lose good guys because they're simply taken advantage of and do not receive the recognition or rewards for their effort, much of which is in their own time. There is a culture in EK, much like Dubai, that not only should we be grateful for being here but it's expected of you to put in plenty of 'free' time. And if you don't like it, leave! The same old chestnut that we hear on a daily basis that sums up a mentality of ignoring the true problem and sacking the 'problem makers'. As we cut back on our original 4 day reccurrent to 3 and then to 2 days, we save money. Notice how in the latest edition of SAFAR the Company actually receives a grant from the Australian Gov'nt for training courses. As pilots, this saving is converted into home study on days off and your log on time will be monitored. I have no objection to home study but I do strongly object to being tied to my computer at home to do it. Give me the books to study while i'm away or provide all pilots with laptops. If we are reqiured to learn from CD's then the Company has a moral obligation to provide us with the tools to carry out that task.


This is just one example of how, on a daily basis, we have to live and deal with the decisions our managers take. Our commercial and advertising dep't are to be commended. Our recruitment planning and training less so. Aircraft ordered 2 years ago and now not enough pilots to fly them. What kind of a joke is that.We suffer from others mistakes but they still get their full years leave with their families. How as pilots would we be treated if we made decisions like that?


Like everything here, it comes down to money. Every single dep't here, especially those associated with flight ops, service delivery, crew control and engineering are undermanned. The managers reach their target and bonuses are achieved. Yes, we have secure jobs but will this continue every year? Only those at the very top benefit form this. It's called greed and whilst some managers may have moved on in 3-4 years with a nice CV, those of us who planned a career and offered our loyalty, are left picking up the pieces from dishonest and incompetant policies. This Company has massive potential but the last 2 years has seen morale plummit and guys starting to leave in numbers like never before. Not huge exaggerated numbers but an amount that should make the owners sit up and take note.


Until we see policies such as internal upgrades ( no DEC's), Flight Deck travel, provision of laptops, full compliment of Cabin Crew on every flight, more days off at base to recover, and a true team spirit, then people will continue to leave at an increasing rate.


Would I still advise coming? Difficult to say, as everyone's circumstances are very different. I intend staying for the long run on the proviso that there are some changes here, some of which are mentioned above. My views may well have become somewhat more realistic in my time here but i'm sure you'll agree, there's been much change too in these last couple of years, most of which has not been for the better. I'd like to think that as we stuggle to crew more and more Aircraft and as the passengers increasingly complain, then someone, somewhere will have the balls to say enough is enough and time to forgo huge profits opting instead for quality people and a quality product.


They are the very things that made Emirates and without them, they'll be the very things that destroy us. Let's hope that never happens

Safe flying

BYMONEK

[Quod Boy]

BYMONEK,good honest post mate and Rev Dr D spot on,
Furbie,youve been given some good honest cross sections of opinions come along and join EK but dont say you werent warned when in 12 months time when the honeymoon is over and the baseball bat is no longer greased up prior to entry.
The best days here are over IMHO,they had a great chance here to make it really excellent in every way,but read the threads and you will see one of the greatest acts of self destruction ever on a pilot group by its "management" astonishing lack of grasp on the impact of some awful policies and the lives/careers affected.The damage is done and the effects starting to bite.
Truly a wasted opportunity.EK will survive,but its a stepping stone airline now and it might offer what you want so if thats big shiny jets and sun come along get what you want,but dont expect fair play or support You are a hired gun in a trainset run by money and power focused managers with no interest in your welfare..EYES OPEN before you come,good luck with your choice either way.
Off to the pub.QB

[Outta Heresoon]

BymonEK
I have followed your posts for quite some time now, and while I don't always agree with everything you say or some points you make, the post above is exactly the way I and I'm sure many other EK pilots feel. Good on you for taking your time composing a well written, well thought out response to Dr. Doug whom also makes some very good points. We can only wish that management reads these and takes with it the good intentions without insult. Better still, I'm sure we all hope they actually do something to again steer this company in the proud direction it once did.

4HP...sometimes it's hard to recognise green grass when the field you are in is on fire...

[harry the cod]

BYMONEK
I too have followed many of your posts within these last few years noting a gradual change in attitude but you're not alone. The vast majority of crew, including Cabin Crew ( hate the term service delivery!) who've been here a while feel the same. That's not from the dissenters here on prune but flying on the line day in day out. Your post is honest and hits the nail squarely on the head. It's the feeling on the street and management should take note!
Reputation takes a long time to earn. A far shorter time to lose.

Many of us realise that for the sake of some relative small changes and a genuine and fair sharing of the profits, morale would increase dramatically. It's getting to the point now that instead of feeling proud every time I see the Emirates logo at some sporting event, I hide a sneaking suspicion that the deal was done to inject exess profit into 'free' advertising rather than distribute via bonus pay.

I guess i'm getting more distrustful in my old age!

Harry

[Backwater]

I think we're all dreaming if we expect a change for the better. We nearly lost a 340 in J'Berg due to incredible systemic faults in the company. Did we learn anything? Nope - just punish the pilots and move on. Like Gulf Air before us (who incidentally are still in denial over their A320 loss) Emirates will follow the path started 2 years ago. To the big players here what matters is they are in charge.
If we keep expecting the management will somehow come to their senses we are living a dream. In short, we're ****ed. Have a nice weekend.

[beaumarias]

I'm a fairly new (18 months) DEC and as with every company there's plenty to complain about, but generally it's pretty good here.
I'm Airbus so not quite as many A**L Aussie trainers as "The Boeing".
I nearly busted 90 days in the UK last year so commuting is quite possible as long as you don't mind compromising your roster.
Membership of most/all Golf course is full, so if (like me) you're a golfer thats a minus.
Best of Luck

[harry the cod]

Even Nad Al Sheba? Oh well, sorry to hear that mate. Perhaps you should have joined earlier, as an F/O, LIKE THE REST OF US and you would have got a place.You could always take up fishing!

Harry

[furbpilot]

I want to thank you all for the answer and advices you gave me. Specially the last post by Bymonek and Reverend..mmmhhh... well.. i donīt remenber, are intellectually honest and finally helping. I know paradise is not of this life..( and actually i dont believe I will have another one so....no paradise at all..) .This kind of post are finally helping
One more crew to reduce your workload..you should be happy.
Thanks again and see you in Dubai.