DEC's at EK
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Re: DEC's at EK
I did recruitment for 5 years,the standard was fixed.DECs were proposed,it was UNIVERSALLY advised against at the time by the recruitment team.that advice was ignored,we were told DECs were "temporary" 2.5 yrs ago.thats clearly not true.
The standard dropped.
50 pilots left EK in 2005,
Nothings changed,the facts are there,
EK was a great airline,its now a job.
DEC policy was a lie,it has been a disasterous move but no one will admit,good luck to those who play the system,you are not wrong the system has let your colleagues down and EK will suffer as a result.
Being a DEC that will not affect you,so good luck for what you have got.
QB
HNY,QB
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Re: DEC's at EK
I saw the actual letter. From what I read, nothing has changed, except that your time in EK can now be counted, as opposed to having had the time, before you joined EK. I don't fly for EK, but I do have the time to do the DEC thing. Like others, I do not want to jeorpordise a current qualified F/O, in EK, getting the job,but the letter says, that with the large amount of new aircraft arriving in the near future, that DEC's will be employed. Not fair, I know, but, should I be put off applying? No guarantees of course, but if I get through all of it, why should I not take the job??? If you were in my position, wouldn't you?? Don't worry, have not applied,,,, yet!! At this stage don't have to. Hpoefully, it can all be done in-house. Doesn't look like it though, and although it doesn't affect EK Capt's, I can fully understand the F/O's concernes, even tho the letter says it will not affect current F/O's up-grades. Come on, pull the other one!!!
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Re: DEC's at EK
Apply,if you get get the job(you will,EK are VERY short),come and good for you.Just be aware of what you are joining and the extent of mistrust and disappointment felt by many guys(RHS) who joined under different terms and times.
The company has either ignored that fact or refused to see it,but to many who came here to see in many cases,(but not all) a very varied standard of DEC jump them is a hard act to accept,and morale is affected.I am not affected but I fly with many who are seriously disillusioned with EK and the way things are run.
Good luck to you for getting accepted,but be aware of what you join.EK need you,but have been less than honourable to many in doing so,dont be so arrogant to assume you are special or better coming from a 320 or 737,you happen to be right place right time,and thats life in this business.
Good luck.QB
QB
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Re: DEC's at EK
Quod Boy
I'm not trying to rattle you, nor do I think taking DEC's is a good thing, especially, when good people like you, feel threatened, by an out-sider Capt, possibly affecting your command. No way in the world, would I do that deliberately.The letter says different, and your manual stipulates the requirements for a DEC anyway. ( 10000 hrs etc).The letter also says, that it will not affect you, and your up-grade, when it happens. The fact that it is in writing, is perhaps something you and perhaps many others like you, feeling threatened, may be able to use to your advantage, if the need arises. I'm not your enemy. Believe it or not, I've been in the same situation. Funnily enough, I was also an F/O. Right now, I'm quite happy where I am, but if it suits me, and I do have the hours, and more, then I will apply. Don't tell me, you wouldn't do the same in my position. The only difference, between you and me, is that I have the time, I am almost certainly a lot older than you, with 16 yrs heavy jet command time.(47). You know what?. who cares?. I was lucky in the beginning, I was there at the right time. Thats life. You and I'm sure others like you feel very strongly about the whole thing, but please chap, I'm only doing what you are doing. I just happen to be further down the road.
Wish you all the best, I'm sure you deserve it.
tic
I'm not trying to rattle you, nor do I think taking DEC's is a good thing, especially, when good people like you, feel threatened, by an out-sider Capt, possibly affecting your command. No way in the world, would I do that deliberately.The letter says different, and your manual stipulates the requirements for a DEC anyway. ( 10000 hrs etc).The letter also says, that it will not affect you, and your up-grade, when it happens. The fact that it is in writing, is perhaps something you and perhaps many others like you, feeling threatened, may be able to use to your advantage, if the need arises. I'm not your enemy. Believe it or not, I've been in the same situation. Funnily enough, I was also an F/O. Right now, I'm quite happy where I am, but if it suits me, and I do have the hours, and more, then I will apply. Don't tell me, you wouldn't do the same in my position. The only difference, between you and me, is that I have the time, I am almost certainly a lot older than you, with 16 yrs heavy jet command time.(47). You know what?. who cares?. I was lucky in the beginning, I was there at the right time. Thats life. You and I'm sure others like you feel very strongly about the whole thing, but please chap, I'm only doing what you are doing. I just happen to be further down the road.
Wish you all the best, I'm sure you deserve it.
tic
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Re: DEC's at EK
although it doesn't affect EK Capt's, I can fully understand the F/O's concernes
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Re: DEC's at EK
I was not going to post anymore as Im in the last few weeks of my notice period and very much looking forward to my exit from EK.
Most DECs will be treated well and fairly by FOs here, there have been a few guys who have decided to ram it down the throats of guys who have been shafted by EK, why they are so fantastic. Please remember you are in EK because of Flight Ops Arabic face saving policy and for no other reason.
A guy posted a good post about EK realities some time ago and I have taken the opportunity to copy and paste it here. DEC's are one fact of life at EK, please bear in mind though as many Captains have left EK as are about to probably join EK this year. They have done so for a reason and its not DEC's as they have a command already. think very carefully as a great many of these guys came here happily married men and have left here single and regretting ever seeing that gleaming airbus or 777, and wish they only had a family back which for most its already to late.
Anyway if many of you have read the letter to the FO's and no realise what a contrived piece of **** it is, bear in mind once your here the lying will start with you. As will the threats if you wont go into discretion, the threats if you wont operate a flight illegally outside the FTL's or the threats if you wont work every one of your non legal days of. Then you can look forward to your pilot villa 30 KM out in the desert.
Regardless of your hours ask why exiting CPs are looking to get out of here in droves and think on it carefully.
PS that guys post about EK I think he was called warofthewords seems to have gone.If anybody has it please post it.
Most DECs will be treated well and fairly by FOs here, there have been a few guys who have decided to ram it down the throats of guys who have been shafted by EK, why they are so fantastic. Please remember you are in EK because of Flight Ops Arabic face saving policy and for no other reason.
A guy posted a good post about EK realities some time ago and I have taken the opportunity to copy and paste it here. DEC's are one fact of life at EK, please bear in mind though as many Captains have left EK as are about to probably join EK this year. They have done so for a reason and its not DEC's as they have a command already. think very carefully as a great many of these guys came here happily married men and have left here single and regretting ever seeing that gleaming airbus or 777, and wish they only had a family back which for most its already to late.
Anyway if many of you have read the letter to the FO's and no realise what a contrived piece of **** it is, bear in mind once your here the lying will start with you. As will the threats if you wont go into discretion, the threats if you wont operate a flight illegally outside the FTL's or the threats if you wont work every one of your non legal days of. Then you can look forward to your pilot villa 30 KM out in the desert.
Regardless of your hours ask why exiting CPs are looking to get out of here in droves and think on it carefully.
PS that guys post about EK I think he was called warofthewords seems to have gone.If anybody has it please post it.
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Re: DEC's at EK
Emirates has the Right and the Ability to do what they like with their policies for Command Upgrades, DECs etc. They can hire pilots, monkeys, camel drivers what ever the like to fly their planes. I am not against any policy, and I am not against DECs, as long as it is clearly stated when I am recruited for a job. If I am presented with the truth and the facts, and I join, it is my fault that I did not look at things more carefully. I and most of us coming for interviews did not and could not believe that an airline that spends billions of US$ for equipment, for football stadiums, football teams, etc, an airline that is visible in every corner of the earth, would be lying to us for the very basic and fundamental issues of employment. I believed that when they told me that they are responsible and accountable to their people they meant it, and that it was not just a nice recruitment line. If Emirates had told me at the interview that they would hire pilots for their LHS and RHS as needed I would not have come. If Emirates had told me that they are basically a contract job, with a long term duration I would not have joined. If Emirates had told me that they will change my contract as and when they decided without my consultation I would not have come. I and most of my colleagues joining around the same time had jobs, had seniority numbers, had careers had various other options and left all that to join a "FLAG airline, the cream of the crop, the best of the best" for a long term career. I saw an opportunity to be part of something great as it was advertised to be such. I assure you I was not unemployed living on a tree without licences, and Emirates has given me nothing in return for my valuable services of transporting people safely efficiently and economiclly 90 hours a month. I have a JAR licence and did not need a nother mickey mouse licence. I had a command and was not in surch of a command. I came to be part of something great and not just another job. I agree it is my mistake to believe what Emirates told me in the interview, and not to ask for it in writing. It is not my mistake for believing a reputable Company when it said something during the recruitment and interview. It is not my mistake for being an honest trustworthy person seeing the good side in everything. We were recruited becase not only are we professionally at a good standard, but because we are good people, willing to follow and listen, willing to give and share our expertise, we are flexible, caring, and tolerable, because we have character, values, and we know what it is right and what is wrong. If you think Emirates is a career job, then it does not measure up to the BAs Virgins, Lufthansas, etc. There is no seniority, there are no real policies in place able or willining to reward loyalty, hard work, commitment. Those who were interviewed where put through all the hoops to make sure they were hiring high calibre people not just pilots, but people, with honour, character and commitment. I realize now that Emirates is not what I thought it was, and I am leaving not to prove a point, not to spite them, but because there are other contract jobs that reward my expertise and my licences at a rate which I believe is fair. I do not have to change Emirates, I do not have to change the system, nor do I have to prove to them that they are making a mistake in not promoting their experienced FOs. I can get now elsewhere what I diserve and not have to wait like a begger for charity. I believe that if you come to Emirates and see it for what it is you will have a good time. People are leaving from Emirates because they find better opportunities for them and people come to Emirates because it is a better opportunity for them. I believe that now people are more informed about what Emirates is and they will not be dissapointed as alot of us are.
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Re: DEC's at EK
What an excellent post EKFO. All the best wherever you are going.
More will follow I'm sure. 50 in 2005? It will be more for sure in 2006 as like a snowball the momentum is just starting. The really damaging changes occurred in the last two years, allowing reduced recruiting to the point where the average line-pilot roster (airbus at least) now has 95+ hours. The decision to leave (like the decision to come here) is not taken lightly, obviously as in many cases involves uprooting family for what is always a gamble. But as the months have passed with no improvement to the working conditions, guys will have looked through red jet-lagged eyes at their families and made a vow to leave as soon as the chance comes by. So over the following months we scan the adverts looking for the break. What is sure, EK is now seen as a stepping stone to another job, not what it once was, a career.
To reverse this inevitable process requires the following:
1. Replacement of our esteemed EVPFO&E. He is damaging our airline through micromanagement.
2. Reinstatement of credit for leave and ppc sim duties.
3. Pay structure that reflects an airline with global aspirations to be the world's best.
4. A return to the old standards of recruiting (assisted by item 3).
5. Reevaluation of upgrade requirements. Bin the 3 yr rule and upgrade on proven ability. Bin the DECs. They can join as F/Os and upgrade according to proven ability.
6. Acceptance by management that EK is an expat airline. Despite the hype we all know that Dubai is no paradise and few would be here if not for the requirement to feed our families or gain those extra wb hours for that lucrative contract coming up. Therefore we need incentive to stay, not reasons to leave.
7. Feel free to add...
For those guys out there with the rose-tinted raybans on, this is not a whinge but rather a pragmatic assessment of what is a needlessly sad situation.
HNY and keep recovering.
More will follow I'm sure. 50 in 2005? It will be more for sure in 2006 as like a snowball the momentum is just starting. The really damaging changes occurred in the last two years, allowing reduced recruiting to the point where the average line-pilot roster (airbus at least) now has 95+ hours. The decision to leave (like the decision to come here) is not taken lightly, obviously as in many cases involves uprooting family for what is always a gamble. But as the months have passed with no improvement to the working conditions, guys will have looked through red jet-lagged eyes at their families and made a vow to leave as soon as the chance comes by. So over the following months we scan the adverts looking for the break. What is sure, EK is now seen as a stepping stone to another job, not what it once was, a career.
To reverse this inevitable process requires the following:
1. Replacement of our esteemed EVPFO&E. He is damaging our airline through micromanagement.
2. Reinstatement of credit for leave and ppc sim duties.
3. Pay structure that reflects an airline with global aspirations to be the world's best.
4. A return to the old standards of recruiting (assisted by item 3).
5. Reevaluation of upgrade requirements. Bin the 3 yr rule and upgrade on proven ability. Bin the DECs. They can join as F/Os and upgrade according to proven ability.
6. Acceptance by management that EK is an expat airline. Despite the hype we all know that Dubai is no paradise and few would be here if not for the requirement to feed our families or gain those extra wb hours for that lucrative contract coming up. Therefore we need incentive to stay, not reasons to leave.
7. Feel free to add...
For those guys out there with the rose-tinted raybans on, this is not a whinge but rather a pragmatic assessment of what is a needlessly sad situation.
HNY and keep recovering.
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Re: DEC's at EK
Ratpoison, I don't think you will find that bases is the answer. It will destroy morale even further as rostering is done first for the bases, second for training, third for the 'chosen few' and finally for the ones that have fully embraced the expat. lifestyle, moved to DBX and now get the grubby little scraps that are left on the roster. It happened in SIA, (They are in the process of reducing, if not phasing out o'seas basing), where morale fell sharply when it was introduced and it would, I'm sure, happen in EK too.
Basing may help a few but generally it stuffs life up for far more people than it helps.
A good post EKGOEK330FO but I am still wondering how people gave up good jobs to come to the Middle East without knowing a lot more about how the place operates for real.
Basing may help a few but generally it stuffs life up for far more people than it helps.
A good post EKGOEK330FO but I am still wondering how people gave up good jobs to come to the Middle East without knowing a lot more about how the place operates for real.
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Re: EK DEC Decision
What a great decision for you. Everyone agrees if you are out of a job that is a different matter. Having been through two bankruptcies myself I know it can be a challeging evironment for you. Hang tough and don't read the newpapers. Believe me when I tell you that you are far better off there than here. The money goes so much further there even if you are taxed. By the way are you NWA or DAL?
Millers court is just another jealous pilot that wishes he was working in the USA where first officers still make more than Emirates captains.
Millers court is just another jealous pilot that wishes he was working in the USA where first officers still make more than Emirates captains.
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Re: EK DEC Decision
GL69,
I can assure you that an extremely small minority of FOs in the USA make more than EK captains. And regarding the Ts & Cs of pilots in the US, standby as worse is surely yet to come.
Yardman
I can assure you that an extremely small minority of FOs in the USA make more than EK captains. And regarding the Ts & Cs of pilots in the US, standby as worse is surely yet to come.
Yardman
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Re: EK DEC Decision
New Tomcat
I have you figured for an NWA skipper. Your decision is sound, and most importantly, principled. While I believe that the advent of DECs won't be the end of the world for the FOs at EK, not having them will perhaps prod management to review some of the policies that Fos find a little frustrating, to put it politely. Thanks again for your decision and I wish you and your colleagues all the best in these unsettled times in the US of A.
Respectfully,
Yardman
I have you figured for an NWA skipper. Your decision is sound, and most importantly, principled. While I believe that the advent of DECs won't be the end of the world for the FOs at EK, not having them will perhaps prod management to review some of the policies that Fos find a little frustrating, to put it politely. Thanks again for your decision and I wish you and your colleagues all the best in these unsettled times in the US of A.
Respectfully,
Yardman
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Re: EK DEC Decision
Yardman you might be right about the percentage of FOs making good coin but I think you are wrong about the worse it still to come. I believe that the US market has turned the corner or bottomed out as evidence by some US airlines making money and harldy any US airlines that have furloughed in recent months.
US mangement has had to deal with record oil prices (who hasn't), a glut of airlines seats driving down yields and a US administration doing everything in its power to screw the US carriers. If the US had John Howard (AUS) instead of George W protecting its base the US airlines would be far better off than they are today.
Isn't is sad that still some FOs make more money than catpains when the US market has been in the toliet for the last few years and Emirates is making record profits? That is why you will see very few US pilots (DECs or FOs) come over here to Emirates. Just my opinion.
US mangement has had to deal with record oil prices (who hasn't), a glut of airlines seats driving down yields and a US administration doing everything in its power to screw the US carriers. If the US had John Howard (AUS) instead of George W protecting its base the US airlines would be far better off than they are today.
Isn't is sad that still some FOs make more money than catpains when the US market has been in the toliet for the last few years and Emirates is making record profits? That is why you will see very few US pilots (DECs or FOs) come over here to Emirates. Just my opinion.
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Re: EK DEC Decision
gl69
You may have a point. However, if you doubt what i'm saying is true, just look at Delta, and for that matter, Northwest. Delta's management wants to squeeze another 19% out of them, and that's after the 30% they've already given. NWA wants more from their pilots, and Independence Air just liquidated. APA, the union for American Airlines pilots, for some strange reason is in a head long rush to give the company additional consessions that they haven't even requested yet. Probably in the vain hope to try and preserve their pensions, which, in my opinion, they will lose anyway.
I realise that this isn't the North American Forum, but I mention all of this only to point out that the grass isn't always as green as you think. Yes, things here could definitely be better in several areas. Yes EK is making record profits and it would be nice if more of that filtered down to our level. But I suspect that the management here is trying to avoid exactly what happened to the US carriers and their pilots. I mean, the salaries did become unrealistic and unsustainable. I for one am a bit more comfortable just knowing that we'll probably avoid the perpetual boom and bust cycles that have characterised US aviation for the past 30 or so years since deregulation.
Regards,
Yardman
You may have a point. However, if you doubt what i'm saying is true, just look at Delta, and for that matter, Northwest. Delta's management wants to squeeze another 19% out of them, and that's after the 30% they've already given. NWA wants more from their pilots, and Independence Air just liquidated. APA, the union for American Airlines pilots, for some strange reason is in a head long rush to give the company additional consessions that they haven't even requested yet. Probably in the vain hope to try and preserve their pensions, which, in my opinion, they will lose anyway.
I realise that this isn't the North American Forum, but I mention all of this only to point out that the grass isn't always as green as you think. Yes, things here could definitely be better in several areas. Yes EK is making record profits and it would be nice if more of that filtered down to our level. But I suspect that the management here is trying to avoid exactly what happened to the US carriers and their pilots. I mean, the salaries did become unrealistic and unsustainable. I for one am a bit more comfortable just knowing that we'll probably avoid the perpetual boom and bust cycles that have characterised US aviation for the past 30 or so years since deregulation.
Regards,
Yardman
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Re: EK DEC Decision
A pilot with honour? Good on you New Tomcat! I wish there were more pilots with the integrity you posses.
Be sure to tell all of you mates back in the states about your decision and how it effects the current FOs at EK.
Be sure to tell all of you mates back in the states about your decision and how it effects the current FOs at EK.
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Re: EK DEC Decision
Thanks one and all for the words of encouragement you have given me. With all the postive words I know I have made the right decision.
I am a Delta captain and once flew in the Navy way back when. I have had a charmed life and I have much to be thankful for. I still have my orginal wife and like I said before I am making fairly decent money. I don't need to take any of your jobs.
Believe me when I tell you that I feel for you. I have never experienced first hand what most of you are going through.
I wish all of you well, we are all going to need it.
I am a Delta captain and once flew in the Navy way back when. I have had a charmed life and I have much to be thankful for. I still have my orginal wife and like I said before I am making fairly decent money. I don't need to take any of your jobs.
Believe me when I tell you that I feel for you. I have never experienced first hand what most of you are going through.
I wish all of you well, we are all going to need it.
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Re: EK DEC Decision
So LHR, you claim to be on an upgrade course, are all the F/O's senior to you upgraded? I'll bet they havent, as a matter of fact I know they haven't. So you have jumped the cue like everyone else here, what a phony.
Tom cat..you have been duped by the usual group of flunkies led by LHR rain. When Delta takes another 25% of your salary and cancels your pension you will be back, remember that LHR jumped the cue when he had his chance, if you take advice from this lot you will truly be sorry.
Tom cat..you have been duped by the usual group of flunkies led by LHR rain. When Delta takes another 25% of your salary and cancels your pension you will be back, remember that LHR jumped the cue when he had his chance, if you take advice from this lot you will truly be sorry.
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Re: EK DEC Decision
Far rider I must say that you are the first negative response that I have encountered at Emirates. Even if Delta takes another 15%, from what I have heard and researched I am better off staying where I am presently. I make $180 an hour and paycut of even 20% I will still be making $144 an hour which is still a lot of money and more than Emirates pays. Then when you take into account how expensive it is to live in Dubai especially compared to the US I still have a long way to go. Like I said if I am out of a job it is an entirely different story.
I have heard from numerous people and pilots from Emirates not just London guy. I have also from other sources beside this site. Thanks for your concern.
I have heard from numerous people and pilots from Emirates not just London guy. I have also from other sources beside this site. Thanks for your concern.
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Re: EK DEC Decision
And by the way you Americans do you really want so much to live in Middle-Eat ? other nationalities are currently more appropriate to become expats there...