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Unemployed (as pilots) fATPL holders

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Unemployed (as pilots) fATPL holders

Old 21st Dec 2019, 09:27
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Not your cup of tea View Post
I’ve renewed a couple of times but again have got nowhere. The sad thing is I genuinely love flying and really wanted to earn my living as a pilot. I am reasonably well paid now in another industry but commercial aviation still looks good from the pay scales I have seen. But the older I now get the less interested I am at waking up at 4am etc. Still if the opportunity ever came up, I’d seriously consider it (I’d love to give it a go).
So have you given up or not? Finding that first job is the hardest part of the whole process, and it gets harder the longer you are out of training. The flight training is the expensive part, and you've already done that. "Seriously consider it" and "Love to give it a go" are not the same as "I'd jump at the chance" or "I'd do anything to..." So maybe in truth you don't want it enough? 8 years is a long time. You could get a lot of hours as a part time FI in 8 years. Or made a lot of contacts as an ATPL ground instructor. Or married and divorced a couple of chief pilots daughters. Most of us have the ability to make friends, and friends in airlines can be really useful when you want to work for an airline. Some people get lucky by just applying for jobs, but others need to think outside the box.
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Old 21st Dec 2019, 09:36
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The issue for future trainees

I think it’s not the lack of jobs or state of the industry but a combination of factors that prevent people getting jobs.

The issue I see it from my point of view from the inside is this.

1) Most of flight training prepares you for Single pilot ops and G/A rather then commercial flying. Flight schools train you in one manner but it fall short from airlines point of view.

2) Some people don’t have the applitude for it. If you don’t have it sorry pick something els.

3) Flights School summer have variation of quality of instruction and facilities not all are made equal

4) There is not many sources to look at that give you a straightforward path.

Everyone has different opinions.

If I had a time machine I would have gone through the MPL route to reach the right hand seat of an airliner earlier reasons

Your trained for the actual job from day one!

you have a job offer at the end

its the most effective way to train future trainees to touch an airliner.
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Old 21st Dec 2019, 11:16
  #83 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Not your cup of tea View Post
..........The sad thing is I genuinely love flying and really wanted to earn my living as a pilot. I am reasonably well paid now in another industry but commercial aviation still looks good from the pay scales I have seen. But the older I now get the less interested I am at waking up at 4am etc. Still if the opportunity ever came up, I’d seriously consider it (I’d love to give it a go).
If teaching interests you, then have you considered part time instructing?
Keeps your hand in, gentle increase in hours, and who knows what opportunities might arise.
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Old 21st Dec 2019, 11:39
  #84 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by James Ken McIntosh View Post
I think it’s not the lack of jobs or state of the industry but a combination of factors that prevent people getting jobs.

The issue I see it from my point of view from the inside is this.

1) Most of flight training prepares you for Single pilot ops and G/A rather then commercial flying. Flight schools train you in one manner but it fall short from airlines point of view.

2) Some people don’t have the applitude for it. If you don’t have it sorry pick something els.

3) Flights School summer have variation of quality of instruction and facilities not all are made equal

4) There is not many sources to look at that give you a straightforward path.

Everyone has different opinions.

If I had a time machine I would have gone through the MPL route to reach the right hand seat of an airliner earlier reasons

Your trained for the actual job from day one!

you have a job offer at the end

its the most effective way to train future trainees to touch an airliner.
1. The Regulators determine the syllabus. The part that you missed out was the MCC element following the CPL/IR skill tests. That is where the multi crew training commences. Much discussion elsewhere as to exactly what MCC course to follow.....

2. Provided you have average hand to eye coordination you will succeed. Golfers with good handicaps have no problems. Other sports such as cricket, tennis indicate a natural talent. Accomplished horse riders are easy to teach. Empathy with the machine.

We are not talking “fast jet” size brains required for commercial flying, although undoubtedly it helps.

3. Undoubtedly a factor. The first 20 hours are so critical. Quality instruction is vital. Can you select an attitude and TRIM accurately. This is CRITICALLY important.

4. Speak to those in the know.

5. MPL is a far superior route if your intention is airline flying. Only issue is that you must be ‘sponsored’ by an airline during the integrated course. The initial light ac flying is standard. Reduced amount followed by 120 hours multi crew training in a B.737 or similar approved device.

As certain Flybe MPL students found out 5 or so years ago, employment is not an absolute certainty if the financial situation is less than sound. Stirling in Denmark another faller with MPL students.
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Old 21st Dec 2019, 11:59
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Originally Posted by parkfell View Post
1. The Regulators determine the syllabus. The part that you missed out was the MCC element following the CPL/IR skill tests. That is where the multi crew training commences. Much discussion elsewhere as to exactly what MCC course to follow.....

2. Provided you have average hand to eye coordination you will succeed. Golfers with good handicaps have no problems. Other sports such as cricket, tennis indicate a natural talent. Accomplished horse riders are easy to teach. Empathy with the machine.

We are not talking “fast jet” size brains required for commercial flying, although undoubtedly it helps.

3. Undoubtedly a factor. The first 20 hours are so critical. Quality instruction is vital. Can you select an attitude and TRIM accurately. This is CRITICALLY important.

4. Speak to those in the know.

5. MPL is a far superior route if your intention is airline flying. Only issue is that you must be ‘sponsored’ by an airline during the integrated course. The initial light ac flying is standard. Reduced amount followed by 120 hours multi crew training in a B.737 or similar approved device.

As certain Flybe MPL students found out 5 or so years ago, employment is not an absolute certainty if the financial situation is less than sound. Stirling in Denmark another faller with MPL students.
Yes I am aware I missed out the MCC

however, it would make more sense to train a future cadet on MPA aircraft rather than building hours on SEP/MEP

they train marintime cadets using the actual mock up and simulator for ships

why not trainee pilots?
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Old 21st Dec 2019, 16:04
  #86 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by James Ken McIntosh View Post


Yes I am aware I missed out the MCC

however, it would make more sense to train a future cadet on MPA aircraft rather than building hours on SEP/MEP

they train marintime cadets using the actual mock up and simulator for ships

why not trainee pilots?
What junior birdmen need is to be taught the fundamental skills in the first instance on light ac. Probably by 70 hours experience there should be a significant improvement compared to what they achieved for the PPL skill test.

Those on the modular route ~ Hour building might be regarded by some as burning holes in the sky, with little attention to accurate flying. The more astute prospective professional pilot will use this time wisely.

After the IRR (IMC rating as was) with a safety pilot, improving your IF skills, flying holding patterns, flying different types of approaches and go-arounds will go a long way to gaining valuable skills.

You then transfer these skills to larger multi pilot ac.
Trying to run before you can walk is not recommended.
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Old 25th Dec 2019, 22:07
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Hi everyone and Merry Christmas,
I finished my training with the MCC at the end of 2018 and it took me quite a while to get my licence issued, by the time the airlines in Europe slowed down with hiring new pilots and I missed that train, sending dozens of CVs every week without any positive response. In one year I didn't even get an interview.
I renewed my ratings and here I am looking for new prospectives and with lots of hope for the new year.
I'm asking you guys what would you do in my situation:
I was able to save a few grand working, lets say 10 and I'm thinking how to spend them the wiser possible way to be more suitable for an eventual employer and land on my first flying job.
I have 240 hours, I was thinking to go to the US and get a hundred hours done or get a Caravan training and trying to find a job with that here in Europe or go to Africa where I suppose there will be more chances for that plane (even though I know i'm very short of hours, if I do one thing I can't do the other)
An other option would be saving for one year more and being able to afford a type rating for a more popular aircraft.
I'm also thinking about charity operations, but the ones I googled have pretty high requirements. Honestly I wouldn't mind to bush fly for free for charity for a while, if I'm helping others and myself to get where I want to be.
I'm not thinking of doing the instructor course at the moment because I don't really feel it's my thing.
Hopefully things will get better soon but I don't want to stay too long out of the business looking from the window how things will evolve, I really need to do something now
Thank you very much for every suggestion guys, I really appreciate, good luck for all of those that like me are struggling to find their way into their dream.
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 10:30
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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My story to cheer you guys up during the holidays:
I finished training back in 2010. Got a menial job as soon as I finished training to start paying of the training debt and have some money for additional training/renting aircraft. In the first few years I stayed as current as I could, renting aircraft at the local flying club (including IFR). I did manage quite a few invitations to selections/interviews. For some reason I failed each and every one of them, always for a different reason. I always debriefed myself or tried to find out why I couldn't proceed to the next stage. After about 5 years of this I managed to reach the final stage of selection of an airline that actually paid for the type rating on A320 in my home country. Unfortunately, despite several hours of training in a simulator I failed the sim check, party because I got sick the day before the check. By this time, I had also met my wife and decided to call it a day and I didn't renew my multi-engine rating. I stayed flying for another 2 years before I quit that as well.
In the meantime: I started studying to obtain a bachelor's degree in tourism through distance learning. I completed my internship for the degree with a rather big airline, working as a check-in and gate agent. I still couldn't quite get aviation out of my mind (I gave up on actually flying though). Immediately after the internship, in 2016 I was offered a position with another airline to work in their safety department as a Flight Data Monitoring Analyst (FDM/FOQA) and do some administrative duties on the safety reporting. In most part I got this job since I got some knowledge how to operate an airliner, but I didn't have the licenses to fly them.
This changed after having several talks with senior pilots in the company who urged me to 'have another go at it', since the market was rather good again and the company was having a harder time finding FO's. Doing an observation flight and discussing it with my wife sealed the deal. I renewed my ME-IR, this was quite expensive but I found the love for flying again.
3 months after I got the paperwork back I applied internally as a first officer. And guess what: this time I passed the selection process. My type rating started 2 months later on the 737NG. Everything paid for by the company. I have been flying the aircraft since a little over half a year, mostly to sunny destinations and obviously, I couldn't be happier: I am based 30 minutes from home, I fly a nice aircraft to nice and sometimes challenging destinations. Raw data flying is actually encouraged and there are opportunities ahead to fly long haul or do mixed fleet. I have just short of 500 hours on the 737 now.

Bottomline is: persevere in what you are doing. Even though the airline I fly for has a history of hiring staff within the office (most ab initios start with a job in the office). Do not exclude the opportunity to try this. It took me 8 years from obtaining my CPL to starting the type rating. It can be done! It is important to keep flying to maintain a high level of confidence and skills. The job is worth the patience.

Keep the faith .
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Old 28th Dec 2019, 18:11
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Originally Posted by Toerist View Post
My story to cheer you guys up during the holidays:
I finished training back in 2010. Got a menial job as soon as I finished training to start paying of the training debt and have some money for additional training/renting aircraft. In the first few years I stayed as current as I could, renting aircraft at the local flying club (including IFR). I did manage quite a few invitations to selections/interviews. For some reason I failed each and every one of them, always for a different reason. I always debriefed myself or tried to find out why I couldn't proceed to the next stage. After about 5 years of this I managed to reach the final stage of selection of an airline that actually paid for the type rating on A320 in my home country. Unfortunately, despite several hours of training in a simulator I failed the sim check, party because I got sick the day before the check. By this time, I had also met my wife and decided to call it a day and I didn't renew my multi-engine rating. I stayed flying for another 2 years before I quit that as well.
In the meantime: I started studying to obtain a bachelor's degree in tourism through distance learning. I completed my internship for the degree with a rather big airline, working as a check-in and gate agent. I still couldn't quite get aviation out of my mind (I gave up on actually flying though). Immediately after the internship, in 2016 I was offered a position with another airline to work in their safety department as a Flight Data Monitoring Analyst (FDM/FOQA) and do some administrative duties on the safety reporting. In most part I got this job since I got some knowledge how to operate an airliner, but I didn't have the licenses to fly them.
This changed after having several talks with senior pilots in the company who urged me to 'have another go at it', since the market was rather good again and the company was having a harder time finding FO's. Doing an observation flight and discussing it with my wife sealed the deal. I renewed my ME-IR, this was quite expensive but I found the love for flying again.
3 months after I got the paperwork back I applied internally as a first officer. And guess what: this time I passed the selection process. My type rating started 2 months later on the 737NG. Everything paid for by the company. I have been flying the aircraft since a little over half a year, mostly to sunny destinations and obviously, I couldn't be happier: I am based 30 minutes from home, I fly a nice aircraft to nice and sometimes challenging destinations. Raw data flying is actually encouraged and there are opportunities ahead to fly long haul or do mixed fleet. I have just short of 500 hours on the 737 now.

Bottomline is: persevere in what you are doing. Even though the airline I fly for has a history of hiring staff within the office (most ab initios start with a job in the office). Do not exclude the opportunity to try this. It took me 8 years from obtaining my CPL to starting the type rating. It can be done! It is important to keep flying to maintain a high level of confidence and skills. The job is worth the patience.

Keep the faith .

This is the sort of dedication I mentioned in a previous post. Unfortunately there are so many pilots now that are not good enough and will never be good enough for the airlines. It makes finding people like you hard to find sometimes. Well done on finally getting there!
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 20:21
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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Saddest story

Hello everyone!

Came across this thread while browsing PPRuNe and wanted to share my story too to get a different point of view from inspiring people here. I started my integrated ATPL in October 2016 and finished by September 2019, took sometime for the exams as our batch struggled with the instructors being lazy and inexperienced but eventually finished the exams and passed with an overall score of 90%.

Went to flight training and aced all checks on first attempt in a short 8 months period including MCC. Was the top in my batch (others had extra hours, failed checks etc.) Got my license and applied to Flydubai’s second officer program (my father has connections there).

Sadly after 2 days the chief of training sending my papers, got a rejection letter due to my nationality. I come from a sanctioned country due to war but was born and raised in UAE, family has been here 35 years. No financial issues, no training issues whatsoever. Tried applying again on my own and going to the center to speak to someone, so humiliating that they had to send a guy from the finance section to meet me in the reception and whispered ‘you were rejected due to nationality’.

He asked me to provide him with my passport copy stating that my place of birth is Dubai plus a copy of my logbook stating that I flew here. Never heard anything from him again. Tried applying online and sent an email ‘begging’ them to accept as it is my only resort and technically my dream since childhood to join FDB.

Got back an email saying ‘sorry your country is sanctioned and we are not allowed to provide any training for personnel from your country’. How rude and disappointing to see that written in an email in plain words. Now it’s been more than 6 months of saying at home doing nothing and knowledge getting drained down the sink.

Every time I think of studying again or going over some stuff the image of that email pops in my head and drags me down the ground. Been trying to research around and found out this is discrimination (no joke). But who can resolve this? I guess no one. Been contacting some people and asking about this, no one ever faced this situation, it is very odd. Would like to know what do you guys think of this? Please share your prospective and enlighten me. Thank you all, wish you best of luck and happy landings.
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Old 27th Jun 2022, 13:15
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Finished IR and MCC in 2011, applied for jobs had one interview that I bombed.

found another, job IR lapsed. Decided to pick it up again a few years later which took some time. Had a couple interviews and even a second stage lined up. Then covid and Brexit. Licence is lapsed again and only valid in the UK. Not to mention most places are now asking for Upset training etc.

The „dream“ is now so detached from my life now I don‘t see the way in, nor am I willing to continually drop ££££‘s in maintaining everything with nothing to show for it.

I think we don’t hear from people that didn’t „make lt“ as they are busy doing other things and don’t like to dwell on it.
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Old 27th Jun 2022, 19:16
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Originally Posted by Iflyplainplanes View Post
The „dream“ is now so detached from my life now I don‘t see the way in, nor am I willing to continually drop ££££‘s in maintaining everything with nothing to show for it.
The thing is you've already paid for (and passed) the training. You're literally right where hundreds of people want to be... Unless there's something fundamentally wrong with you compared to other people then you should have just as good a chance as anyone else at getting a job. You either need a better job strategy or you need to wait for the next shortage.
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Old 28th Jun 2022, 13:58
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Originally Posted by Iflyplainplanes View Post
Finished IR and MCC in 2011, applied for jobs had one interview that I bombed.

found another, job IR lapsed. Decided to pick it up again a few years later which took some time. Had a couple interviews and even a second stage lined up. Then covid and Brexit. Licence is lapsed again and only valid in the UK. Not to mention most places are now asking for Upset training etc.

The „dream“ is now so detached from my life now I don‘t see the way in, nor am I willing to continually drop ££££‘s in maintaining everything with nothing to show for it.

I think we don’t hear from people that didn’t „make lt“ as they are busy doing other things and don’t like to dwell on it.
I finished my training in 2013 after 5 years going modular. I ran out of funds party way through. 2016-2018 was a great time to get a job. Maintaining my IR when trying for a job was costing me about £500 a year in a ME aircraft. I was doing the bare minimum to stay current. Once I had an interview go and get some airline specific interview prep and a SIM session (£100-£200 and hour fixed based B737 can be found easily).

If you want it bad enough it will happen. Yes I got made redundant 2020 but seriously for me it never felt like a job. Everyday was just going out with like minded people.

How many fall by the wayside? I would say a lot. From people I have met en route I can name a dozen who gave up rather quickly and I think that’s what airlines see. Worst I have heard is ex CTC people who were paying £1100 a month in loan costs and never got into the flight deck at all. Sad but it happens.

Right now would probably be the worst time to try and get into the market but you never know.
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Old 25th Aug 2022, 23:27
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Originally Posted by rudestuff View Post
The thing is you've already paid for (and passed) the training. You're literally right where hundreds of people want to be... Unless there's something fundamentally wrong with you compared to other people then you should have just as good a chance as anyone else at getting a job. You either need a better job strategy or you need to wait for the next shortage.
I paid for it and now because of Brexit it is so far removed from where I am at now. I will not sit and redo 14 ATPL exams nor will I move back to the UK. Yes sure I can do this and do that but like I said my life is now detached from that. Not my case but it is very easy for people
to have kids or what have you and very quickly not ever be in the right place to go for it.

And yeah maybe there was something wrong with me as well to be honest the idea of flying for a job now makes me feel numb.
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Old 25th Aug 2022, 23:37
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Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123 View Post

If you want it bad enough it will happen

This can be true if you have money, and time to burn and nothing else going on in your life, but the wants of a 15 year old and a 30 something may be similar but the priorities are vastly different. Being an airline pilot is just a few notches above of own a ferrari. Realms of possibility maybe, but a dumb idea in my circumstances

there gets to a point where you have to be realistic. You could be throwing away multiple chances at a good career in a different field and a chance to build a life because you keep chasing childish dreams. At some point for some people you need to stop. Some people need to hear that people were able to stop. I still like aviation i still have an interest but you can be contented at arms length.
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