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Unemployed (as pilots) fATPL holders

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Unemployed (as pilots) fATPL holders

Old 17th Sep 2019, 13:35
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: EU
Posts: 30
Unemployed (as pilots) fATPL holders

Hello everybody.

I would like to make a thread for unemployed (as pilots) fATPL holders to come and post their story/journey and situations.
And also for everyone else to share their opinion on the matter also.

Often we hear that there are lots of unemployed fATPL holders and flight school grads but not many are posting on here and sharing/ updating us on their journey.

It's really important we hear the stories and journies of these people it seems only those who have managed to secure a job posting their stories on here and social media, youtube etc.

Please don't be afraid to post your story (Don't include your real name though) if you post on here since you are not using your real name its not like the employers are going to come on here and be able to identify some fATPL holder and blacklist you so don't be afraid.

Also if someone says something not nice about your post or calls your opinion stupid please dont stop posting or get upset. It could still be a valuable contribution that others could benefit from. Its important to hear from as many people as possible on this thread whether people agree or not.

(Hope this thread is in the appropriate forum if not please move it to the one which is more appropriate maybe it belongs in the wannabes training forum but I thought it belonged here?)

Thanks everyone, hope this helps some of us
yap800 is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2019, 15:25
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Dublin
Posts: 15
I think it is a very interesting idea, as it can help people trying to start such as myself to see the possible bad side of things...

Looking forward to hearing from you guys!

P.
skysthelimit94 is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2019, 15:43
  #3 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
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What would be helpful is an indication as to how your training went, both in terms of the EASA exams, and the flying courses & flight tests. The acid test for those who aspire to multi crew operations is the MCC element and how you faired, as a simulator assessment is invariably used as part of the interview process.

parkfell is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2019, 20:06
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Europe
Posts: 2
Hello everybody.

I finished my training last November with the MCC as the last step.
I couldnt find any jobs for many months and I find a position as customer service agent in MAD airport which is close to my home.
Could not afford pay to fly or any related program and I was completely down.
After many months I got a chance by pilotix to get two interviews (LOT and Stobart Air) I passed both of them and picked the second as it is more interesting and offered better benefits.
Ill start my type rating soon.

I must say that after studing for the EASA exams and putting a lot of money in the process and not getting any flying job was really really frustrating and it was a really bad period in my life...

I wish you guys all to find a paid flying job as soon as possible because not many people related to this industry can unerstand what we get through during and after the training.

Good luck to you all!
da42lover is offline  
Old 18th Sep 2019, 10:08
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: London
Posts: 13
I did my licence a few years ago as a late starter after a good well paid career in another industry.

I was fortunate to get an airline job from the start and to be honest I hated it from about the second week. I am used to working in a polite, fair environment and the culture within the airline I was in was schoolboyish. Told what to do, when, where and how. Roster was mad, always a mess, and changes ALL the time when you have things going on in your life, hotels at the cheap end of the market. It was exciting first time flying the aircraft but once you have done it, its quite boring and the SIMs are always repeating the same thing, again and again but slightly different. Its a very repetitive job in a very sterile environment and I found it quite boring and something I got over pretty quick. Playing football with friends is much more fun and exciting.

I spent alot of time and money to do it which on one side was a complete waste but I wanted to do it and I did, so it was a success on the other side.

Am back in the other industry and I am much happier appreciating what I had even more.

Oh yes the money is very low for what you do. I think the younger you are the more you can put up with the BS, stress etc and the business case for the investment is more worthwhile as you can earn good £ quicker before family commitments come along and quality of life is more important.
Bryan_Air is offline  
Old 18th Sep 2019, 10:14
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Dublin
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by da42lover View Post
Hello everybody.

I finished my training last November with the MCC as the last step.
I couldnt find any jobs for many months and I find a position as customer service agent in MAD airport which is close to my home.
Could not afford pay to fly or any related program and I was completely down.
After many months I got a chance by pilotix to get two interviews (LOT and Stobart Air) I passed both of them and picked the second as it is more interesting and offered better benefits.
Ill start my type rating soon.

I must say that after studing for the EASA exams and putting a lot of money in the process and not getting any flying job was really really frustrating and it was a really bad period in my life...

I wish you guys all to find a paid flying job as soon as possible because not many people related to this industry can unerstand what we get through during and after the training.

Good luck to you all!
Thanks for your story!

Could you tell me how many airlines did you apply for and what did you do to prepare for entry?

Kind regards.

P.
skysthelimit94 is offline  
Old 18th Sep 2019, 18:55
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: UK
Age: 25
Posts: 218
I have to say that I think what Bryan_Air is saying - while a fair point from his own experiences - highlights simply how subjective a thread topic this is.

If it's what you've always wanted to do, as it was for me, then keep at the several applications but go in with your eyes open. You'll find something eventually i'm sure. Of course, that also depends on your experiences throughout flight school and your passes etc. I actually feared I'd not get anything having failed my CPL and partialled my IR but I'd say the hardest part from that is getting in front of the airline. Once you're there, or have a chat on the phone or whatever then I found they didn't really mind the slip ups as long as you had the explanations for them.

I do agree with what Bryan_Air is saying in some sense in that yes the job can be repetitive. Airliners tend to fly themselves most of the time and once you've flown the routes a few times you could - figuratively - fly them with your eyes closed. Then again, at my outfit no two days have been the same and I'm still absorbing new knowledge on the daily. There's always some sort of logistical challenge that makes it variable enough. It is very much a lifestyle you must marry yourself too but from my own personal (subjective) opinion, it has smashed expectations. I get fo fly for a carrier that, in my opinion, looks after its staff and the pay isn't all that bad. Pay is a topic which will forever have pilots moaning, as the media will clearly highlight, but as a new starter I'm content with what I get, where i'm based, the aircraft I fly and the overall day-to-day.

I applied to close to 20 airlines, heard back from about 4 of those and started my type rating about 9 months after I completed my MCC at the first airline I interviewed with. At one point I feared I'd not find the money to revalidate my IR as I was somewhat struggling to pay the loans back as it was, but thankfully didn't come to that. My best bit of advice is cater your CVs to aviation and focus on attributes each of them airlines are looking for. You'll find all of that on their websites of course.

All the best -- whether you're an fATPL or an aspiring cadet :-)

For those asking:
  • 86% ATPL Average, 1st Time Passes
  • 2nd Series, 1st Attempt CPL
  • 1st Series, 2nd Attempt IR
  • Pass at MCC (no mark downs, or "Slows" as some schools put it)

Last edited by gbotley; 18th Sep 2019 at 20:48.
gbotley is offline  
Old 19th Sep 2019, 00:02
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Europe
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Originally Posted by skysthelimit94 View Post
Thanks for your story!

Could you tell me how many airlines did you apply for and what did you do to prepare for entry?

Kind regards.

P.

I applied to 23 airlines where I meet the requirements published on their websites. 5 of them came back to me just telling me to patiently wait.
For preparing to potential interviews I was using PILAPT tests available online such as flightdeckfriends and similars.
I applied and got accepted in pilotix program and they got me a spot to two interviews (on of which I applied myself but they never came back to me) that I both passed with materials and tests that they provided me with.
da42lover is offline  
Old 20th Sep 2019, 14:51
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Posts: 4
Pilotix?

Anybody care to explain what pilotix is?
I've heard of it on a few occasions, but whenever I google it, I only get irrelevant results.
pdyy is offline  
Old 20th Sep 2019, 16:14
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: edinburgh
Posts: 31
Have we passed the peak for Pilot recruitment?

looking at the aviation market

is this the end of the hiring peak and bad times are coming?

or

a small blip?

what are your thoughts?
James Ken McIntosh is offline  
Old 20th Sep 2019, 16:31
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Amantido
Posts: 25
I am no economy expert, but I think that until Qatar 2022 there will still be recruitment.
​​​​​​Brexit and the 737MAX issue raised uncertainties in Europe, but I still see lots of jobs offer in the rest of the world. If you are lucky to be able to work in the US, you will get a job as long as you have a heart bit.
I reckon at the beginning of 2020 we will see again be opportunities and Ryanair will start recruitment again.
Banana Joe is offline  
Old 21st Sep 2019, 03:36
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: The Loony Bin
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Originally Posted by pdyy View Post
Anybody care to explain what pilotix is?
I've heard of it on a few occasions, but whenever I google it, I only get irrelevant results.
Apparently some sort of recruitment agency that does NOT run or endorse P2F (if you believe the website)...

Also, they have rebranded to "myPilotix"... Try googling that

Note: never used, nor do I endorse them in any way
RHSandLovingIt is offline  
Old 21st Sep 2019, 12:06
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 10
Originally Posted by Bryan_Air View Post
I did my licence a few years ago as a late starter after a good well paid career in another industry.

I was fortunate to get an airline job from the start and to be honest I hated it from about the second week. I am used to working in a polite, fair environment and the culture within the airline I was in was schoolboyish. Told what to do, when, where and how. Roster was mad, always a mess, and changes ALL the time when you have things going on in your life, hotels at the cheap end of the market. It was exciting first time flying the aircraft but once you have done it, its quite boring and the SIMs are always repeating the same thing, again and again but slightly different. Its a very repetitive job in a very sterile environment and I found it quite boring and something I got over pretty quick. Playing football with friends is much more fun and exciting.

I spent alot of time and money to do it which on one side was a complete waste but I wanted to do it and I did, so it was a success on the other side.

Am back in the other industry and I am much happier appreciating what I had even more.

Oh yes the money is very low for what you do. I think the younger you are the more you can put up with the BS, stress etc and the business case for the investment is more worthwhile as you can earn good £ quicker before family commitments come along and quality of life is more important.
Certainly the correct decision to return to your previous employment for everyone’s sake.

Having started my career in Engineering and moved into commercial flying I certainly prefer the later. Now over ten years flying have no regrets but it’s what you make of it that counts.

Talking to to a colleague the other day an interesting observation we have made is people who proclaim to be “bored/unmotivated” etc are actually often struggling with the operation and use being bored as a kind of smoke screen to cover over some pretty average performances..
FlyingEngineer is offline  
Old 21st Sep 2019, 16:07
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
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Originally Posted by FlyingEngineer View Post


Certainly the correct decision to return to your previous employment for everyone’s sake.

Having started my career in Engineering and moved into commercial flying I certainly prefer the later. Now over ten years flying have no regrets but it’s what you make of it that counts.

Talking to to a colleague the other day an interesting observation we have made is people who proclaim to be “bored/unmotivated” etc are actually often struggling with the operation and use being bored as a kind of smoke screen to cover over some pretty average performances..
"Bored, oh no one ever told me that before, bare face lying to the captain, lack of interest, unwillingness to do any amount of research without being spoonfed the answer, lots of deflection off topic when tough questions are being put to them, lack of personal responsibility". Unfortunately traits that are becoming all to common in the RHS these days. Many would spend the turnaround on their phone if allowed to. Most never take out a manual in the cruise and wonder how come they don't know the Part A and B. Most are happy to troll out the same script as a brief which quickly unravels when they ask you if you have any questions and they are unable to deal with the necessary. Still these heroes all insist that they are ready for command. Thankfully the checking and training departments are thinning them out. On a brighter note there are still the shining stars that come through flight schools as well which make for a pleasant day and you are only to happy to offer guidance to.
MCDU2 is offline  
Old 21st Sep 2019, 17:28
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Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 2
Originally Posted by Bryan_Air View Post
I did my licence a few years ago as a late starter after a good well paid career in another industry.

I was fortunate to get an airline job from the start and to be honest I hated it from about the second week. I am used to working in a polite, fair environment and the culture within the airline I was in was schoolboyish. Told what to do, when, where and how. Roster was mad, always a mess, and changes ALL the time when you have things going on in your life, hotels at the cheap end of the market. It was exciting first time flying the aircraft but once you have done it, its quite boring and the SIMs are always repeating the same thing, again and again but slightly different. Its a very repetitive job in a very sterile environment and I found it quite boring and something I got over pretty quick. Playing football with friends is much more fun and exciting.

I spent alot of time and money to do it which on one side was a complete waste but I wanted to do it and I did, so it was a success on the other side.

Am back in the other industry and I am much happier appreciating what I had even more.

Oh yes the money is very low for what you do. I think the younger you are the more you can put up with the BS, stress etc and the business case for the investment is more worthwhile as you can earn good £ quicker before family commitments come along and quality of life is more important.

you've got to be a troll. Or very naive. Or very entitled.
i can’t work out which
Meester proach is offline  
Old 22nd Sep 2019, 01:37
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Amantido
Posts: 25
Can't find this Pilotix thing even with Google.
Banana Joe is offline  
Old 22nd Sep 2019, 15:16
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: rome
Posts: 24
Does pilotix charge anything for pilots ?
Rocket61 is offline  
Old 22nd Sep 2019, 15:49
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 2,057
Hey guys....let me just shoot the breeze a bit here with some blunt observations. But first, congratulations to those who have reached the end of their initial training pipeline, got their fATPL, and are "job ready" enough in search of their first piloting job.

I'm an ATPL with almost 30 years experience. My first piloting job was as a co-pilot in an IFR operation. I paid for all my own training up to CPL. IR and initial ME type rating was paid for by the employer. I've never earned $1000/day (although some of my colleagues do). Now here's the rub. My mum had the gutters on her roof replaced the other day. The guy who did it had no formal qualifications, had made no investment in his training, required no prior experience in any particular field, doesn't need to keep a medical, works his own hours when and where he wants. In other words, about exactly the opposite to what a new pilot starting out in a flying career is expected to do, and with virtually no hope of earning the sort of money you can earn by gluing a bit of roof gutter together. After expenses for the materials required for the job he earned $1000 for less than a days work. Only consequence for any deficiency in his work being a leaking gutter. No big deal. Any deficiency in your work as a pilot, well, the possible consequences are obvious.

My boy is thinking about what he wants to do when he finishes school. I'm encouraging him to fixing gutters, and discouraging him from any thought of being a pilot.

Whatever you choose to do, apply your best effort and hopefully the rewards will come. If you want to earn a decent living, with a lifestyle of your own choosing, without the burden of onerous responsibilities, learning to use a caulking gun might be a better option than learning to fly a plane. Good luck to you all.
gulliBell is offline  
Old 22nd Sep 2019, 21:23
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: London
Posts: 13
I am just giving my experience, tbh I would probably say a bit entitled having experienced better terms and condition beforehand.

Yes, I was average and I struggled with the general operation, I felt contained and couldnt have time off when I wanted and had to turn up and do what your told most of the time. You have to absolutely love every minute of it and when you dont it becomes a total drag, constant checkins and yes sir pls sir etc, conversations all the same pilot bids, roster, flight pay etc.

Not bored as in, nothing to do, fed up of it would be more accurate. Once you have flown something big I just found it very very repetitive and you need to like that mindset, it didnt work for me and I got sick of it.

The whole industry as a pilot is very hard graft/responsibilities work etc and your on your beck and call especially when responsibilities come along its a struggle to manage and caused problems at home, its clear to see why a lot of single people working there or as a short term career. If you look at TCX possibly about to fail and BA at the other end, its such a hard operating environment to subject your working life and family to.

gulli Bell makes a good point, as a pilot you will only make a wage and what you earn is set out to the penny. I have seen a chap I grew up with start his own business and he can make over 250k a year through his company and works on average 3-4 days a week of his choosing, it took him over 10 years to get there but he is in a good spot and he is in early 40s. Nice house, kids in private school and only travels for (NICE) holidays as works locally.
Bryan_Air is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2019, 14:04
  #20 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: EU
Posts: 30
Thanks for the replies guys - it seems you have all been successful which is awesome.

So far nobody has come on here and said
"I completed training 5 years ago and never got a flying job despite applying to every airline and flight instructor position, I'm now in massive debt and considering whether I should give up and stop wasting money keeping my ratings current"

Do you there just aren't that many people in that position out there?
Or are they just not in this forum, or in denial and don't want to post and admit it (even though its anonymous)?
yap800 is offline  

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