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Unemployed (as pilots) fATPL holders

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Unemployed (as pilots) fATPL holders

Old 28th Sep 2019, 14:30
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Amantido
Posts: 32
Originally Posted by Rocket61 View Post
Does pilotix charge anything for pilots ?
Depending on your level of experience. For me it would be around 600 euro/year. I can get interviews without their help so I don't see where they exactly stand.
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Old 28th Sep 2019, 15:17
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: London
Posts: 13
@ yap 800, you dont need to pay for any of these schemes such as Kura, pilotix, wings alliance etc, they are for mugs! You can do it yourself by researching online etc, go to one of the free pilot events and save yourself the money or read the posts here, most pilots help each other. Its a well trodden path airline recruitment, its quite straight forward really and just differs a little on each airline.

The only ones that dont get jobs are the ones that give up. I have met a few that never got an airline job who wanted one and they go back to what they did before, if you cant get one at home then you need to go abroad and do one of the eastern european etc ones then come home with experience etc. You cant really speak your mind and say I was robbed by an integrated scheme because they will stop you getting a job etc so people who dont succeed would normally keep it to themselves. You are guaranteed nothing in this industry except you will be messed around and expected to be the most flexible of people and pay for most things yourself including hotels.

If I had my time over again, I wouldnt do it to be honest, 3 years of my life and 80k I spent maybe but then if I hadnt of done it I would of wished I had done it so catch 22 or I would of liked to have done it in the 80s or 90s. TCX going down the pan now just shows the very hard market conditions you work in, BA highest paid on average I think and they strike, Avanti and some other airlines all gone bust recently, even Ryanair saying a year off unpaid leave or we will sack you. TCX charged via Iago £750 for the interview, what other industry does that to attend an interview? There is clearly alot of over capacity in the market hence all these airlines going bust and bases closing and I think people fly less than they used to now.

Pilots are expected to just suck it all up as BAU while terms and conditions deteriorate further.....
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Old 28th Sep 2019, 19:38
  #23 (permalink)  

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Yap - many have not made it unfortunately. A combination of bad timing and/or crap at the interview/sim means they haven't nailed the interview. The reason why they're not posting here is they have drifted away. Don't under estimate the numbers. There are a lot who've fallen by the wayside.

The bad timing is worth bearing in mind. If you finish your training during a down town, then your IR skills degrade very quickly. Keeping your IR skills is very expensive.
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Old 28th Sep 2019, 20:59
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 377
Originally Posted by redsnail View Post
Yap - many have not made it unfortunately. A combination of bad timing and/or crap at the interview/sim means they haven't nailed the interview. The reason why they're not posting here is they have drifted away. Don't under estimate the numbers. There are a lot who've fallen by the wayside.

The bad timing is worth bearing in mind. If you finish your training during a down town, then your IR skills degrade very quickly. Keeping your IR skills is very expensive.
Yes absolutely true.
I finished in 2013. The market was horrendous.

Send out like 350 applications in the first year. All custimized to the particular airline I was applying for so not just copy paste. I only received a handful generic e mails back stating they are looking for pilots with experience or they were not looking for pilots at the time. Very very depressing, but I decided to apply for a job as FA. Got myself a job as an FA in a small operator which was flying the Dash for a big European Airline. After some time I moved to that mainline as FA on Airbus. Saddly they went bust.

In meanwhile I kept applying. My first assessments I had in 2017. Saddly not succesful or succesful but still didnt get the job. I was about to give up until I got another shot beginning of 2018. There I got the job on a B737.

Worked in that company until 1.5 week ago and moved straight onto my new employer flying again B737.

I now have some useful experience and I get contacted now by different companies and recruiters if I am interested to fly for them.
also I passed an assessment in another company a few weeks ago. I was in the hard position to decide for whom I want to work for.

All I can say from my experience. Do whatever needed to get your foot between the door. Once you gathered 500 multicrew hours, doors will open, but also networking. Very important. I got my present job because of an friend of mine who got me in contact with this company.

I have another assessment coming up in another company also.

Believe in a good outcome and do a lot of networking. Once you have your first break life will get much better.

Good luck to all the ones looking for the first break.
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Old 29th Sep 2019, 03:44
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Sydney
Posts: 52
Originally Posted by yap800 View Post
Thanks for the replies guys - it seems you have all been successful which is awesome.

So far nobody has come on here and said
"I completed training 5 years ago and never got a flying job despite applying to every airline and flight instructor position, I'm now in massive debt and considering whether I should give up and stop wasting money keeping my ratings current"

Do you there just aren't that many people in that position out there?
Or are they just not in this forum, or in denial and don't want to post and admit it (even though its anonymous)?
A person I know well went to Dubai to do the Flydubai type rating with possible interview at end. He was sure he would get it. He made a mess of his checkride and didn't even get the interview. He gave up and owed over 100k pounds.
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Old 29th Sep 2019, 16:20
  #26 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Aug 2019
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Originally Posted by P40Warhawk View Post
Yes absolutely true.
I finished in 2013. The market was horrendous.
Send out like 350 applications in the first year. All custimized to the particular airline I was applying for so not just copy paste. I only received a handful generic e mails back stating they are looking for pilots with experience or they were not looking for pilots at the time. Very very depressing, but I decided to apply for a job as FA. Got myself a job as an FA in a small operator which was flying the Dash for a big European Airline. After some time I moved to that mainline as FA on Airbus. Saddly they went bust.
In meanwhile I kept applying. My first assessments I had in 2017. Saddly not succesful or succesful but still didnt get the job. I was about to give up until I got another shot beginning of 2018. There I got the job on a B737.
P40 Warhawk, thank you for sharing your story, and well done for hanging in there and making it happen.

Do you think your experience as a flight attendent helped to get the job and show employers that you were still trying to keep in touch and not give up?

Would you mind sharing how and where you trained e.g. modular/integrated wich school (I'm not going to hijack this thread with this question but good to have context in relation to your story), how you performed during training etc?

What alternative ways of building experience did you look for?
did you apply for flight instructor jobs also?

Also I notice your location is germany is this where you are from or where you live at the moment - where are you from btw?

Last edited by yap800; 29th Sep 2019 at 16:36.
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Old 29th Sep 2019, 16:27
  #27 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
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Posts: 30
Originally Posted by Climb150 View Post
A person I know well went to Dubai to do the Flydubai type rating with possible interview at end. He was sure he would get it. He made a mess of his checkride and didn't even get the interview. He gave up and owed over 100k pounds.
Thank you for sharing this story,
do you know where/what school and when this person trained integrated modular etc?
how long between finishing training and getting the type rating with possible interview at the end?

After the person gave up, what then?
did this person ever keep trying to get opportunities or just gave up completely and never tried to keep rating current or get more opportunities?
What are they doing now instead?
Any chance of asking them to come on here and share more of their story?

And how about you, are you a pilot right now or in training or aspiring to start or doing something else?

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Old 29th Sep 2019, 18:03
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 377
Originally Posted by yap800 View Post
P40 Warhawk, thank you for sharing your story, and well done for hanging in there and making it happen.

Do you think your experience as a flight attendent helped to get the job and show employers that you were still trying to keep in touch and not give up?

Would you mind sharing how and where you trained e.g. modular/integrated wich school (I'm not going to hijack this thread with this question but good to have context in relation to your story), how you performed during training etc?

What alternative ways of building experience did you look for?
did you apply for flight instructor jobs also?

Also I notice your location is germany is this where you are from or where you live at the moment - where are you from btw?
I keep in middle where I am from but yes I do live in Germany .

Started training in Baltic Aviation Academy. Integrated. We were first Ab Initio ATPL Students of BAA. At that time they only had ONE C152, but soon got 3 Tecnam P2002JF's and later one C172SP G1000. The MEP was rented from another school.

I was not much of an Ace, but I passed all exams and checkrides in first attempt. That was also my goal. Especially at that time there were some airlines where you can only apply when you have only first time passes.

Graduated in 2013. Nothing possible to get a job.

If Airlines see FA experience as a good experience is hard to say. I enjoyed the job a lot. Had many nice colleagues and I am very thankful I obtained also experience behind the cockpit door and the interaction with the passengers. A lot of useful skills there.

In meanwhile still nothing happening. I made the decision to go for self sponsored TR B737, which I also obtained in BAA. Straight after finishing I had an assessment which I sadly didnt pass. 1 year later via someone I know in my former company I got in that company and obtained around 500 on the B737 and now in my second company.
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Old 30th Sep 2019, 09:10
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Somerset
Posts: 411
Good morning all, happened to look at PPRuNe for the first time in a long time and saw this thread and decided that I would contribute my ‘warts and all’ story.

I’ll start by saying that redsnail is entirely right, there are an awful lot of people who have given up and those people have drifted away from PPRuNe so you will be unlikely to hear anything from them.

I started training modular in 2006 when recruitment opportunities were reasonable and qualified in 2008 as the world went into recession (great timing). I did it all with my own money and no loans needed.

My training record is first time passes in all written exams with 93% average and 2nd series 1st attempt passes in CPL and MEIR and straight passes in MCC and JOC.

I was fortunate enough to get called for assessment at Ryanair but made a complete pigs ear of the sim check and no surprise got the PFO email from them.

As a responsible(ish) adult with a family to support I went back to my previous life as an engineer which provided for my family while I kept everything in date and tried to find that elusive first flying job. I would have loved to have instructed but there were no instructor jobs going and instructor salary would not have provided for my family.

Later I was also fortunate enough to be invited for assessments with Stobart and Logan, unfortunately I was out of the country on a family holiday for the Stobart assessment and the day before the Logan assessment I woke up with D&V which was the start of a virus that laid me up for three days so was unable to attend. Despite my continued pleas to Stobart and Logan and a Dr letter confirming to Logan that I was genuinely unfit to travel I was never given alternative dates for assessment.

Earlier this year just before I was going to renew my medical and IR, I was involved in a fall at home that broke a couple of bones in my foot. I had to wear the ‘boot of shame’ for a couple of months after the fall until I could walk properly again. Even after I could walk again my foot was nowhere near strong enough to get my lapsed medical back or cope with sustained asymmetric flight.

This brings me up to now where I am in a position where I could renew my lapsed medical and IR but having witnessed the collapse of Thomas Cook and Aigle Azur plus Adria are on the brink of collapse (their aviation authority have given them one week to sort their finances out before their operating licence is removed) also I do not believe that Flybe are out of the woods plus RYR are telling pilots to either take 12 months unpaid leave, relocate to less popular bases or face job cuts.

When you add in uncertainty over Brexit regarding freedom of movement and employment within the EU for UK nationals combined with several respected economic think tanks warning of another imminent global recession, I have come to the very tough decision that to put myself through medical and IR renewal and staying reasonably current would simply be throwing good money after bad.

I am still working as an aerospace technical consultant which pays well, is commutable from home and the people that I work with are pleasant enough but the work itself does not inspire or fulfil me in any way.

I have tried not to be too downbeat and I do not regret training as I have no debt and have continued to provide for my family throughout the process.

I genuinely wish everyone currently seeking employment or currently training nothing but success in their endeavours and hope that if you make it then it’s all that you hope it to be.

Regards,

Mike

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Old 30th Sep 2019, 13:00
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Italy
Age: 30
Posts: 135
Just to be clear: RYR is threatening pilots to force them to move to one of their subsidiaries (with reduced pay of course) to reduce costs even more, not because they don't need pilots anymore...
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Old 30th Sep 2019, 13:46
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: London
Posts: 13
Thanks for sharing your views magicmick, flying really isnt that glamorous and its a slog of a job. Its a bit like the emperor has no clothes....

Disgusting news from RYR, MOL probably a billionaire asking his staff to 'apply' for a year off unpaid leave, the guy has no soul!

Welcome to aviation!
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Old 1st Oct 2019, 07:41
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Somerset
Posts: 411
To add even more fuel to the fire, Adria have now filed for bankruptcy and XL in France have suspended all flights, I hope that this is the last of it but I’m not convinced. Definitely not a good time to be looking for flying jobs as a low hours recently qualified candidate. Difficult times ahead.
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Old 1st Oct 2019, 11:23
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Dublin
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by magicmick View Post
Good morning all, happened to look at PPRuNe for the first time in a long time and saw this thread and decided that I would contribute my ‘warts and all’ story.

I’ll start by saying that redsnail is entirely right, there are an awful lot of people who have given up and those people have drifted away from PPRuNe so you will be unlikely to hear anything from them.

I started training modular in 2006 when recruitment opportunities were reasonable and qualified in 2008 as the world went into recession (great timing). I did it all with my own money and no loans needed.

My training record is first time passes in all written exams with 93% average and 2nd series 1st attempt passes in CPL and MEIR and straight passes in MCC and JOC.

I was fortunate enough to get called for assessment at Ryanair but made a complete pigs ear of the sim check and no surprise got the PFO email from them.

As a responsible(ish) adult with a family to support I went back to my previous life as an engineer which provided for my family while I kept everything in date and tried to find that elusive first flying job. I would have loved to have instructed but there were no instructor jobs going and instructor salary would not have provided for my family.

Later I was also fortunate enough to be invited for assessments with Stobart and Logan, unfortunately I was out of the country on a family holiday for the Stobart assessment and the day before the Logan assessment I woke up with D&V which was the start of a virus that laid me up for three days so was unable to attend. Despite my continued pleas to Stobart and Logan and a Dr letter confirming to Logan that I was genuinely unfit to travel I was never given alternative dates for assessment.

Earlier this year just before I was going to renew my medical and IR, I was involved in a fall at home that broke a couple of bones in my foot. I had to wear the ‘boot of shame’ for a couple of months after the fall until I could walk properly again. Even after I could walk again my foot was nowhere near strong enough to get my lapsed medical back or cope with sustained asymmetric flight.

This brings me up to now where I am in a position where I could renew my lapsed medical and IR but having witnessed the collapse of Thomas Cook and Aigle Azur plus Adria are on the brink of collapse (their aviation authority have given them one week to sort their finances out before their operating licence is removed) also I do not believe that Flybe are out of the woods plus RYR are telling pilots to either take 12 months unpaid leave, relocate to less popular bases or face job cuts.

When you add in uncertainty over Brexit regarding freedom of movement and employment within the EU for UK nationals combined with several respected economic think tanks warning of another imminent global recession, I have come to the very tough decision that to put myself through medical and IR renewal and staying reasonably current would simply be throwing good money after bad.

I am still working as an aerospace technical consultant which pays well, is commutable from home and the people that I work with are pleasant enough but the work itself does not inspire or fulfil me in any way.

I have tried not to be too downbeat and I do not regret training as I have no debt and have continued to provide for my family throughout the process.

I genuinely wish everyone currently seeking employment or currently training nothing but success in their endeavours and hope that if you make it then it’s all that you hope it to be.

Regards,

Mike
I genuinely wish you luck! You have been very unlucky and you deserve that job!

Best of luck!
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Old 1st Oct 2019, 12:52
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Somerset
Posts: 411
Thank-you

Thank-you so much for your kind words. In many ways I have been lucky in that I am healthy, I have a wonderful wife and son, I have a well paid job that isn’t the job that I dreamed of and doesn’t enthuse or inspire me but it allows me to provide for my family, pay for my son to attend a better school than my wife and I ever went to and give him the opportunities and education that we never had. I also live in a nice area with no debts outstanding on the house or anywhere else, I drive a reasonable car and have a great circle of friends. The only piece missing is the flying job that would make everything complete, but as many people have pointed out, it’s just a job and after a period of time it would become just day to day work with it’s bad points as well as good points. I do not regret flying training and if I had not trained I would probably have tortured myself with ‘what if’ questions for the rest of my life. I am not bitter from the experience and I would never tell anyone not to train or to give up their dream, I truly hope that the dark days for aviation lift soon and that those that are searching for their first flying job now and those that are currently training enjoy every success.

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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 00:28
  #35 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: EU
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by Bryan_Air View Post
@ yap 800,
You cant really speak your mind and say I was robbed by an integrated scheme because they will stop you getting a job etc so people who dont succeed would normally keep it to themselves. You are guaranteed nothing in this industry except you will be messed around and expected to be the most flexible of people and pay for most things yourself including hotels.
...
I think one of if not the most important points and something I had slight hope this thread could change
But they dont have to Identify themselves on here so can't they just tell their story but not share their face name or exact details -

Its strange (maybe annoying if they are just choosing not to share this on purpose - sorry guys) that I cant even find one or a few L3/CTC OAA/CAE FTE grads saying "I didnt get a flying job for 5 years and am now crippled by debt" why won't they tell their story if they can do it anonymously?
(granted it wont have the same effect anonymously as its less provable/believable but still its a usual thing for people to write about an outcome that has been bad for them people do this for other things like product reviews places they stay restaurants etc)

Do you think that on this forum, we can help to encourage these people to share their story, even if only anonymously?

Originally Posted by Bryan_Air View Post
@ yap 800, you dont need to pay for any of these schemes such as Kura, pilotix, wings alliance etc, they are for mugs! You can do it yourself by researching online etc, go to one of the free pilot events and save yourself the money or read the posts here, most pilots help each other. Its a well trodden path airline recruitment, its quite straight forward really and just differs a little on each airline.
.
Free pilot events - I will have to look into this maybe this is a key thing that I didn't research, thank you.
Ah yes that it true - I notice the wings alliance schools you can just contact each school and organise it yourself - maybe the "wings alliance" etc is them trying to make a brand by joining so that they can maybe get placements and compete with the big integrated schools?
Originally Posted by Bryan_Air View Post
@ yap 800,

The only ones that dont get jobs are the ones that give up. I have met a few that never got an airline job who wanted one and they go back to what they did before, if you cant get one at home then you need to go abroad and do one of the eastern european etc ones then come home with experience etc.
r.....
Thank you - do you think hanging in there a long time is key to success - how long usually before employers think that you are too long out of training (despite keeping everything current and even an aviation related job?)

you mean sometimes if they cant get a job soon they just give up?
eastern european ones to get experience? you mean airlines or training schools?
Thank you there were a lot of valuable points in that post
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 10:39
  #36 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
Posts: 923
This THREAD is starting to go around in circles. Undemanded pitch, yaw, and roll has commenced.

1. Those who obtained a licence and didn’t do well during the training are the most likely not to be employed by an airline. If they stayed in aviation, then instructing is a possible option. Or ground job?
Very few are likely to admit that they failed to put in the necessary effort, and tell all on PPRuNe.

2. Those who have a passion and are medically fit to fly, will succeed. It might take a while, but succeed they will.
I know one Virgin 747-400 Captain who told me in 1998 that he had 17 (seventeen) flying jobs before joining Virgin. Started instructing and worked his way up.

3. The critical requirement is PASSION, together with a significant amount of determination, forgoing much to focus on only one thing. Jumping through the series of hoops before crossing the finishing line.
The analogy I used is joining the church; you need to believe in GOD.

4. Timing is of the essence. Right place at the right time often plays a large part in getting that lucky break.

5. Market forces. Supply and demand. We are seeing a shift at the moment with the demise of some operators.

6. The better junior birdmen will succeed. The weaker ones will die on the vine. Natural selection in play.

The cyclical nature of aviation (7 years) is a fact of life. Choose aviation as an occupation wisely.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 13:23
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Italy
Age: 30
Posts: 135
Originally Posted by parkfell View Post
3. The critical requirement is PASSION.
MONEY, the more the better.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 13:43
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 377
Originally Posted by bulldog89 View Post


MONEY, the more the better.
Money is an important factor as in most cases you have to pay your first rating.

I also had to pay for my first rating. Nevertheless price was kinda ok.

Nowadays almost none of airlines pay your rating if you are a rookie. And if they do, there is a bond which is of course understandable. Usually they subtract money from your salary for a certain time so all in all you still pay for it yourself.

Anyway I got my first job through networking. Very important factor. In meanwhile I just started at my second employer a few weeks ago and have a few more options as well.

If you get in and obtain your experience, say 500 hrs multicrew ops, then you move on pretty quick.

I fly B737 ACMI ops and right now I am enjoying my off time at the pool on a tropical island.

Of course I admit that I also had dark times. I was about to give up also, but once you are in, you are in. Hangin there ladies and gents. When you are in you know you made the right choice.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 19:55
  #39 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
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Originally Posted by bulldog89 View Post


MONEY, the more the better.
You are quite correct that without adequate funding, the training will not occur.

You can however have all the money in the world, it doesn’t mean you will issued with a licence or gain employment.

Without the right qualities you can forget it. That includes “passion”; that overwhelming desire to get into the RHS.
Simple.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 21:09
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: N/A
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by yap800 View Post
Thanks for the replies guys - it seems you have all been successful which is awesome.

So far nobody has come on here and said
"I completed training 5 years ago and never got a flying job despite applying to every airline and flight instructor position, I'm now in massive debt and considering whether I should give up and stop wasting money keeping my ratings current"

Do you there just aren't that many people in that position out there?
Or are they just not in this forum, or in denial and don't want to post and admit it (even though its anonymous)?
Yap,
I finished my flight training six years ago, fortunately without any debts. I have applied to numerous companies, even attended interviews at the same companies for couple of times during this six year period. Revalidate my ratings every year. And still nothing - fail final interviews usually. It looks recruiters do not like me. But having a backup plan is a good idea and allows me to develop myself in other topic. And most important!!! Telling everyone else (apart of aviation industry) that you are a pilot still drops their jaw and opens many doors.

As couple of people said before, piloting is not necessary very interesting job, unless you enter flight testing industry. From the money perspective, there are plenty of jobs requiring decision making skills (that you as a pilot possess) that would allow you to earn much more than pilots do. Just open your mind.

All the best
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