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What happened after my Pilapt assessment.

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What happened after my Pilapt assessment.

Old 9th Feb 2010, 17:32
  #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 29
Posts: 33
What happened after my Pilapt assessment.

I attended an assessment with the pilot training college and secured a place on the course. After achieving a 9 out of 10, all that was left to do was arrange my medical and secure my finance.

Ah finance...the divider of the classes.
I did not expect to succeed. I simply shown up out of curiosity, expect a failure and focus on what needed improving but it turned out I was very capable of being trained. My only problem now is the finance itself.

I don't want to go down the modular route. I know what people say about Integrated, that its just a general mark-up on an already good product and that its a waste of cash and so on and so forth but I have a feeling about this place.
It may seem stupid to some, but it just felt right being there.

I'm not knocking modular, but I want to do my training fast. I want to be miles away from home, surrounded and immersed in aviation knowing that when I return home i'll either bring immense pride to my family or unforgivable shame. This part-time flying business does not sound my style. I've looked into it and although you have the funds you can move at a pretty good pace, I have a feeling about this place, an instinct in which I feel will be my downfall if i do not follow.

So how to overcome this obstacle?
Well my step-dad wanted to put his house up for guarentor. 80,000 it is worth but the greedy bankers want more equity even though it covers the cost of the course and that it will be repaid.

Looked for sponsorships and even attempted to contact some famous entrepeneurs to appeal to their better nature but it did not turn out so good...as expected.

Has anybody here been in sponsorship by an organisation or something or another and are currently a pilot now? I'm literally on my last legs here. I cannot let finance in which I would easily repay stand in the way of my career.

And before some of the critics go 'debt is a terrible curse,' and so on...I am well aware of the financial responsibility I have committed myself to. Better to have faced the door to find it locked rather than not approach it at all.

Thanks guys.
-Cp
Crescentpirate is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2010, 17:47
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: UK
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I cannot let finance in which I would easily repay stand in the way of my career.
Go back to the bank with a plan of action for how you would repay the loan if you were unable to work as a pilot for 6 months or a year or longer. Do lots of research and give them a definitive guide as to how you will make them money, with your repayments. Remember that is the only thing a bank is interested in, making money.

Do this first before you go any further would be my advice.
philc1983 is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2010, 18:42
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Bulgaria
Posts: 163
I cannot let finance in which I would easily repay stand in the way of my career.
Finance that you will easily repay?
I don' t think so.

It' s far easier to get into debt than to get out of it.

I don' t know what PTC told you but there are no jobs now and there will be none until thousands of people ahead of you in the queue get a job.
If you try to jump the queue, it will only cost you and others more money and misery.
Finding a job in a reasonable way is not an option until at least 2015.

Mission for you: do your homework.
There are pretty good forums on this website about that problem.

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...-contract.html

http://www.pprune.org/interviews-job...a320-jobs.html

Read these threads in full, it is free and will save you from financial suicide.

Desperate pilots like Kash went all the way to Africa, planted a tent and go daily to the local operators to beg for a job:
http://www.pprune.org/interviews-job...mbia-then.html

I stopped my flight training because it is useless to continue now!

Those selection tests at flight schools are meant to let you pass. You are not worth anything to the flight school unless you can sign up and pay them the full load, so they are the ones who make you pass.
Are there even people who don' t manage to pass those tests?
Just because you passed them, doesn' t mean that you will become a good pilot nor that you will get a job anytime after your training.

The reality is that there are many people who are forced to go do something else after their training.
My former instructor who finished just before 9/11 worked another job for 5 years before instructing for 2 years and finally got a seat on an RJ back in 2007.
Even then, the first year he made no more than when he was instructing while working more hours.

The bank saved you along with themselves.
Why do you think they were so mean with you? Because they have experience with pilots who can' t repay their loans!

Last edited by fly_antonov; 9th Feb 2010 at 18:55.
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Old 9th Feb 2010, 20:01
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: UK
Age: 53
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I am just wondering how you would "easily be able to repay your debts" after training yet are unable to raise enough cash NOW for your training...integrated or otherwise

And yes....very few people fail these "entrance tests"! A failed candidate would not readily be prepared to reach into his pocket and pull out 80k!

If I was your step-dad my arse would be twitchin like a crabs claw!!

I would never stop anyone following their dream...just think carefully about it and try not to accomplish it at someone elses expense

I was in my mid 30s when I had scraped enough cash together to pay for my training (Modular).

Dont wanna sound old-fashioned or negative but hey..i want a lot of things in life that i cant afford!!

Thats life bro!

Rant over
alphaadrian is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2010, 20:32
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 80
Crescentpirate,

I think I can answer you a little better as we are a similar age and I went to PTC.

First off I though PTC were very good. Ok maybe a little pricey but I think you get what you pay for. We passed everything first time and got through the course very quickly (3 weeks for CPL, 5 for MEIR) which like you is what I wanted.

Finished up last summer and said I'd give myself until Christmas applying to the airlines and after that it would be instructor rating and possibly heading to Africa. Out of liturally hundreds of CV's sent out the only one who didnt tell me I didnt have enough experience was Ryanair. I went for the interview before Xmas and got the job. Que Ryanair bashers........

So having got my contract, worked out my loan repayments ill be able to pay it back myself. I wont be living like a king but I dont want to. All I want is to be able to pay off my loan and live. I should have it paid off by the time Im 30. I dont plan on getting a mortgage, having kids, settling down etc etc before Im 30 loan or no loan so it should work out ok.

Point of interest: my sister trained as a doctor, it took her 10 years. Shes done now and 30. Shes on less now than I will be on starting in Ryanair. By the time Im 30 I should be debt free and on more money than she is currently on.

Am I robbing an experienced pilots job? I dont think so. As I said I applied to hundreds of airlines who all told me I hadnt enough experience. I think just like Ethiad, Vietnam Airlines, KAL etc are reserved for those with experience, Ryanair should be for those without. We all have to start somewhere!

Im happy with the choices ive made. Im starting my career now and I guarantee Ill have a lot more cash in my back pocket when Im 30 than all my mates who are drinking themselves stupid in college at the minute will.

Anyways thats my rant, and BTW im not going to engage in an arguement about PTC or Ryanair or anyone. Ive made my choices just like everyone else time will tell if they are right or not.
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Old 9th Feb 2010, 20:40
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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Crescentpirate do NOT secure a loan for training on your stepdads house.

Wait five years at least. You are only 19 are you not?

Remember one thing if nothing else. The skills you acquire when undertaking flight training are perishable. If you dont get a job within 6 months to year, you will run out of currency very very quickly. What then? No money to pay loan and no money to renew ratings and perishing skills.


Rock. Between. Hardplace.


Think hard.
go around flaps15 is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2010, 20:43
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 80
go around,

PTC are now offering a proper integrated course. I dont know if its on there website or not. Its not there old modular dubbed as intergated its a new one.
EI-CON is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2010, 20:46
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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Apologies EI-CON. I just read what I saw on the website, I was'nt aware that they were running an integrated course. I will adjust my post.

Many thanks for the heads up.
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Old 9th Feb 2010, 20:51
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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No prob they only launched it in January so I dont think too many people know about it. Surprised they dont have it on the website though!
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Old 9th Feb 2010, 21:36
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Join Date: Sep 2009
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EI-CON, please be fair and enlighten the guy about the hire rate of your PTC class and the Ryanair terms you agreed to sign.
30K in-house type-rating, contract through agency with no job security nor guarrantees, you' ve got to pay for your own uniform, fill your own balance sheets and tax returns.

Overall 110K of debt to repay, add 30K for interests.
1K a month over 12 years.

Not everyone is ready to bet their entire fortune and their family home on the back of a single airline' s succes, let alone on the chances that they would get hired by them.

Just consider that all it takes for the Ryanair bubble to burst is a bit of bad luck doubled by the cheap reputation they so much love to highlight.

A doctor I know came out of college at age 26, he' s now 30 and making 10 000 euro a month on a part-time, debt free.

In the end you should always do what you think is best for you.
fly_antonov is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2010, 22:02
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 566
Gents,

The bank said "No", so enough with the "don't use your stepfather's house" line. It's not an option for him. The reason they said no is easy to understand. He wanted to borrow 100% of the home value. The problem is, home prices aren't going up and if the bank need to foreclose, the legal fees would eat up a big chunk of the value, leaving the bank with a shortfall. Most bank's only allow 80% debt to value and some even less. I think even Northern Rock learned this lesson didn't they?

CrescentPirate,

If you wanted it so bad, you'd take it any way you could get it, including Modular. If you're not just a troll winding people up, then quit whinging about the big mean bank and go get a PPL then see if that doesn't change your gut feeling about things. Impetuousness can be a gut feeling. It usually leads to bad outcomes and it is a terrible character trait for someone bound for a flight deck.

When a tree falls across the road, go over it, around it, push it out of the way or chop it up and discard it. Don't just stay sat in the car discussing the storm that blew it down.

Good luck with the PPL and be glad you don't have to participate in the nauseating Modular vs. Integrated debate.
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Old 9th Feb 2010, 23:20
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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Fly antonov

Can you give roughly some idea of what he will be earning a year take home?

Can you roughly tell me on average how many hours FR fos do per year?


Can you also give a realistic prediction of when the "Ryanair bubble will burst" ?


Also is there any chance that you can post it over in one of the many FR threads?

The guy was asking about flight training not FR.
go around flaps15 is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2010, 00:06
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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fly antonov,

Im just trying to give the guy some perspective. I was in his situation 2 years ago, ok money was easier to get but everything else was the same.

As go around rightly said this isnt a Ryanair thread but I know what Ive signed and Im happy to sign it. Boo hoo ive got to buy my own uniform and coffee, every other person who works in this country has to buy there own uniform and I dont even like coffee. Anyways as I said in my original thread and as go around said this isnt a Ryanair thread. And BTW all my class except 2 and a number of others have got Ryanair from PTC so its quiet a lot antonov.

Crescentpirate be very careful what you borrow. Dont believe everything PTC tell you but dont believe everything on this either. Job prospects are very bad but not completely dead in the water.

2 years ago I was in your shoes and I wanted to be a pilot and I wanted to join Ryanair from day one. Now I have a job with them and I had no problems with PTC.
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Old 10th Feb 2010, 00:18
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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Please don't do it. Not now. You're only 19 so go get a career and save some money. If/when the market picks up then train but not before. The chances of success in getting that dreamed of job are almost non-existant at the moment. Don't think "Oh well, I'll just go to Ryanair then" because Ryanair are bloody difficult to get in to. Of course you have to have the finances but Ryanair don't care where you get that from. All they want is the best and they can be, and are, very very choosy. To finance against a house (especially someone elses) would be criminally insane.

To answer part of the previous post, an FO will fly 600-700hrs p.a on average as there are variances between bases. The recruitment bubble will burst when all the ordered aircraft arrive in approx 3 years. After that it will be just patching gaps.

Put a response on this thread to let everyone know you've read and fully understand what's being said to you. You should openly and honestly share this with your prospective financier!

Don't forget that the Flying School, like any business, is your enemy. They want nothing more from you than your cash. They don't actually care about you at all......but they'll flatter you, make you feel good, even important, but all they want is your money. Once the money is spent and the exams are passed your life is of no interest to them. You are no longer a source of cash. You are unimportant. Please remember this. THEY ARE YOUR ENEMY !!!!!
IrishJetdriver is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2010, 00:27
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Join Date: Sep 2009
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PTCboy/GA15, It' s ok with me if you want to class it as a Ryanair thread, it' s not of importance for the content of the discussion. Ryanair does matter because it' s one of the only option this guy would have after PTC and it' s an horrible option.

Of importance is that he knows what he' s headed for.
Taking advice from an optimist who gambled 80K to get into Ryanair may just not be his best options right now.

There' s always going to be some for whom it worked out, but for every one who succeeds, there will be 10 who failed. Ryanair, 500 hours per year, bad command prospects and a huge debt is not exactly what I would call a succes story anyways.

If you' re happy about your situation, good for you. No need to brag about that everywhere you go.
Worst is when you give poor people false hope and push them into making the wrong decisions. That is criminal.

I will be praying for you and your passengers.

GA15, You' re talking to the wrong guy, I' m sharing your point of view regarding this guy.
I don' t see your point of asking me the questions I asked the other guy, do prove your point.
You have a problem with talking about Ryanair' s terms? Then tell me what' s good about them.

A Ryanair bubble burst?
Simple really, to add to what Irishjetdriver posted about the Boeing orders running out in 2013; all it takes is for 2 consecutive Ryanair crashes with fatalities to happen within a short period of time. No matter the cause, if that happens, Ryanair and its cadets would be yellow sitting ducks, together with all the hopefuls queuing up for their type-rating scheme.

Ryanair' s safety record is excellent, yet that doesn' t make them immune to circumstances nor statistics.
Marketing "cheapness" is a strong weapon until something happens and backfires.

Last edited by fly_antonov; 10th Feb 2010 at 01:17.
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Old 10th Feb 2010, 02:29
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: uk
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go for it, give all your money...
and have a happy life on a 747 making 100k a year!

you sound so smart! you are the ONE! you are SPECIAL!

ref(movie title):, the Idiot, the One,the Island
flyprototype is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2010, 05:21
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Join Date: Jan 2008
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lets try and look at some of your points and misconceptions

I attended an assessment with the pilot training college and secured a place on the course. After achieving a 9 out of 10, all that was left to do was arrange my medical and secure my finance.
You would have to be hopeless in the present climate not to get in. Do you really think a school is going to say no to 80,000 just now? They are a business like any other that have to make money to survive. At the end of the day almost everyone can become a commercial pilot, it's just a matter of how much time and money it will cost them in the end.

I did not expect to succeed. I simply shown up out of curiosity, expect a failure and focus on what needed improving but it turned out I was very capable of being trained
They are very good salesmen indeed, they have convinced you within a few short hours to spend a lot of money.

I'm not knocking modular, but I want to do my training fast. I want to be miles away from home, surrounded and immersed in aviation knowing that when I return home i'll either bring immense pride to my family or unforgivable shame. This part-time flying business does not sound my style.
You can be finished even faster with modular, Where do you get the idea that it is part time? true it can be done part time, but most CPL and MEIR at the good modular schools are full time, proffesional, well structured courses, no different from the integrated one, just a lot cheaper.

Well my step-dad wanted to put his house up for guarentor. 80,000 it is worth but the greedy bankers want more equity even though it covers the cost of the course and that it will be repaid.
I'm sorry but here you are showing your lack of understanding for what has happened in the world over the last two years.

And before some of the critics go 'debt is a terrible curse,' and so on...I am well aware of the financial responsibility I have committed myself to. Better to have faced the door to find it locked rather than not approach it at all.
I don't think you are, you have no idea the stress and havok debt can play on people. I have seen good people crumble under the strain. Could you really wake up in the morning and live with yourself knowing that your step father had lost his home and everything he had worked for all their lives just because you insisted on taking the most expensive route (insert gamble) you can?

You have so much time on your side, If you can borrow the money (or even better work and save it up) do your PPL at a good modular school just now. find out if you even like flying. go and visit some of the good modular schools as well to get a feel for the atmosphere, you'll find the good ones are no different from the integrated schools.

Good luck.

Regards D-G
Dane-Ger is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2010, 13:59
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
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Crescent, first and foremost don't start your training now. The chances of you getting a job are slim at best. The only two options available at the moment would be FR and sleazy via CTC. It would be unlikely that you will be able to service your debt from an integrated course via either route.

However, you will no doubt ignore my advice so consider this. You stated you wanted to be immersed in your training and away from home. Well so did I. So here is how I did it.

Firstly I went to Florida during my holidays for a JAA PPL which took around 3 weeks. Then went back to work to earn some more money. Did some hour building back in the US over the course of various other holidays to get another 100 or so hours. Then found a school in Bournemouth that did residential ground school. This took around 6 months or so from memory. Sat in class each day and got spoon fed which suited me just fine. Supplemented that with the Bristol database and whipped the 14 exams into submission.

Then I was off to a small school down at Bournemouth for my multi engine rating, multi CPL and multi IR. Never went near a variable pitch single engine jobby so came out with around 50 hours multi all up. From memory it cost me around 28k. Took about 4 months and most of that was during winter.

MCC was through PARC. This was all about 3 years ago now and I am happily working and getting paid to fly.

All in all it probably cost me about 40k or so in training costs - even as an accountant I could never bring myself to add up all the numbers and trawl through the receipts! Add onto that accomodation and other living costs. If you really want to do the sums properly you should factor in loss of earnings which for me were considerable.

At the end of the day I came out with the same bits of paper as you will from your integrated course but considerably cheaper.
potkettleblack is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2010, 20:33
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Somewhere between Avant and Vaton.....usually
Posts: 339
Fly Antonov

Ryanair DOES NOT MATTER TO A GUY THAT DOES'NT EVEN HAVE A LOGBOOK!


Crescent has to think seriously hard about flight training, not think about working for Ryanair because it might not ever happen.

I'm not going to legitimise my job or discuss terms, good points, bad points, to someone(you) that has'nt finished their flight training, and seems to be a salmon of knowledge with regard to Ryanair. You made your choice to delay your flight training for a while. ( A very wise one if Ryanair is not an option that you would ever consider, and you want to fly in a multi crew environment)

I am willing to offer advice to Crescent about FLIGHT TRAINING.

Back to the thread AGAIN!

Crescent if you have decided to commence flight training, there is no rush. Shop around. Everyone gets the same blue or white book. I'm not knocking integrated, but if it's going to break the bank for friends and family it's not worth it.

Commencing professional flight training is a calculated risk.

And at the moment if you do the maths, its not worth risking life and limb for.

Plenty of time yet.

Last edited by go around flaps15; 10th Feb 2010 at 20:45.
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Old 11th Feb 2010, 09:53
  #20 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 29
Posts: 33
okay guys...

I've read a quite a few of the posts, not all but I will as soon as I finish this one.

I do take your points into account. I understand there is a job shortage but I was told that there was going to be a pilot shortage fairly soon. That was told by PTC so maybe it may not be completely accurate, I will have to look into it.

About the house, I can't even get a loan off of it nevermind repaying the loan back. Speaking of repayments, If i cannot pay it back I can live with that. They cannot take my license off of me. It will take me 6 months to be debt free....how? I have my ways.

I do however have a question I wish to put out here. What is the general price difference between modular and integrated? Modular is the most popular I am aware of and I am assuming that as it is a 'pay as you go' the pilots will reieve their license debt free so probably earn more money quicker than integrated graduate pilots whom are paying a debt off?

Also...What is the general timescale a modular course can be completed? Is it roughly 3 years? It may be worth going modular, getting my license debt free. The thing I don't understand is though, surely the price difference means that what you get in Integrated is better hm? they have contacts with airlines in which can hep you get employed where as If I go alone It may be even harder. I did hear its more about who you know rather than what you know.

Thanks guys. I will read the followings comments I missed now and respond accordingly.
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