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Advice after finishing training - what do I do next (Merged)

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Advice after finishing training - what do I do next (Merged)

Old 19th Jul 2009, 22:11
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK
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My 2 cents worth. For the rest of the year, and in all probability next year too, the job scene is pretty well screwed. We havent quite seen a Dan Air or Air Europe(for those that can remember them!) go bust yet. It is however pretty dire times recruitment wise.

To the original poster -

Passenger airlines - no receruitment just now, redundancies all round. Those that have recruited within the last 12 months(Flybe, Ryanair, to name but a few) - long waiting lists for TR courses and start dates,and many offered cabin crew, ops jobs etc to keep them going interim period. Bargain on 12 - 24 months for any further recruitment.

Biz/Corporate - forget it unless you've got experience. Many biz jet jobs are harder to get than airline positions. Wealthy private owners and companies demand highly experienced crew up front and will pay well for the privilage. Bargain on a few years air taxi etc to break into this market. With companies like Netjets making people redundant, its not good news!

Air taxi/charter etc(light twins etc) - minimum 700 hours usually with at least 100 hours P1 MEP IFR time. Probably the hardest flying around hence high hours requirements on the twin MEP time.

Freight/Cargo - very similar to the airlines. The big jet companies(DHL etc) - lots of jet hours or at the very least lots of turboprop hours. Same go's for turboprop freight operators just now, competion is fierce for jobs. I know of 767 Captains with 20 years experience battling for a job on a Shorts 360 at the moment.

Turboprop Regional airlines - the Aer Arrans, Loganairs, eastern airways etc of this world ideally prefer the 1000 hours self improvers for the simple reason they can promote FO's to LHS quickly when the big boys start recruiting.

Flying Instruction - perhaps a few jobs around(mostly part time) but at least 7000 to do the rating. Lots of qualified FI's around now though and competition is hotting up for the few spaces around. Theres even a few around who are sending CV's with the "will work for free line"!!

As for the glider towing, para dropping etc.....mostly all unpaid(assuming you can find any). Its not a job, just something to keep the hours ticking at best.

Sorry to sound negative but thats the reality of it just now. The entire job market is absolutely 100% thoroughly at a standstill. Whether it's BA, Virgin, Eastern Airways.....or Air Charter 'whoever' etc etc, it's totally stagnant, with redundancies all round.

My best advice - find a job(ANY job) and start saving some cash if you can. Try and keep the flying current as best you can(many airlines will require 30 - 50 hours P1 in the preceeding 12 months to application). Be prepared for at least another 1 or 2 MEIR renewals.

As for the Eaglejet's of this world...and all the other buy a job scheme's around...thats a whole different thread!

You chose a bad bad bad time to start an integrated course. Assuming your not a wind up!
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Old 19th Jul 2009, 23:04
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Assuming this isn't a wind up, maybe it's a bit harsh to say this guy was so stupid to start an integrated course. If he is about to finish at the end of the end of the year he would have started before Lehman went t**s up and things got really bad etc, assuming its an 18 month course. No one can see in to the future. Inevitably when you start this sort of thing you have rose tinted goggles on as you want it badly enough.

A lot of instructors / schools etc have said now is a good time to start training as by the time you are done (around 2 years) things should have improved, always quoting the old chestnut that the industry is cyclical. Seems like a hell of a gamble. Does anyone agree now is a good time to start?

M.M
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Old 20th Jul 2009, 06:36
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
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If you can't get yourself a flying job perhaps you can find something related at the aiport, cabin crew, checkin or return to your previous career (if you have one) and save money. Do whatever it takes to keep yourself current and flying and continue to build hours even if that means working at a supermarket/call centre etc.

good luck m8 it will get better
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Old 20th Jul 2009, 07:16
  #24 (permalink)  
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Sorry the replies have been quite brutal but that is the way things go on discussion forums when genuine people post questions that are somewhat troll like.

Comfort yourself that at least you've heard the unvarnished unspun truth about your situation post-training. And its cost 'nowt which in aviation is unusual.

Many people who have replied will share my frustration that so many people continue to hurl themselves into very expensive flying training with little to no prospect of finding work at the end of it. That frustration is not your fault and we shouldn't have a go at you because of it.

Nevertheless you popped up and presented yourself as a poster boy for the Wannabe Zombie Army and got shot at as a result. Every poster on this thread shares my thoughts of support and sympathy for your situation I am sure. More than likely each one has undergone the trials and risks of the path you now walk down. We know how fraught it is. We're just cross that whilst we chanced it in daylight you chose to walk the path in the early hours of the morning. With the wolves crying in the distance. In your flip flops. Wearing red.

We don't want to see you get eaten but we're a bit cross you've taken such a gamble.


Good luck,


WWW
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Old 20th Jul 2009, 07:47
  #25 (permalink)  
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Nice post Simon,

That's until people have a look at your previous posts. They can simply judge for themselves whether you're part of the zombie marching army.

This thread has been stickied as some small balance to the FTO's need for fresh meat whether there are jobs or not.
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Old 20th Jul 2009, 08:01
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Glad I've put my training on hold for a year, only problem is that there is a total lack of jobs everywhere.
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Old 20th Jul 2009, 08:37
  #27 (permalink)  

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dudeatstarwars

I started training in late 2000, so had a ringside seat for 9/11 and the aviation recession that followed. That put my plans back by several years, but as I'd gone modular, it meant I had the flexibility to slow things down and keep my day job. I started my CPL / IR in the summer of 2007, and frankly I was worried sick that the bubble would burst in the three months or so it would take me to get qualified - that was 2 years ago.

If you're expecting to finish integrated training at the end of this year, you would have started in the second half of last year, which suggests your research into this industry must have reached very different conclusions to mine . . . By then it was pretty obvious we were in serious economic trouble, and WWW had spent months taking abuse on here for trying to warn teenage wannabes just how bad things were about to become. That explains the frustration in many of the replies - experienced people saw this coming, but young, impressionable wannabes continued to buy the dream sold to them by FTOs desperate for cash.

That, however is by the by. You have to make the best of the situation you are in. You won't want to hear this, but as others have said, It's extremely unlikely that there will be many jobs for 200hr CPLs for at least the next two to three years. If you don't believe me, pull out your history books and read up on how the pilot job market behaved after the first Gulf War and 9/11. The way things are, I wouldn't even bother trying to keep current after you qualify. Instrument flying skills degrade incredibly quickly, and you'll just be burning money trying to keep current when there are no jobs to apply for. Finish your training, find a job - any job - that pays the bills (and maybe even starts paying off that enormous debt you'll no doubt have). Within a year, renew your IR and review the situation - is the job market any better or still the same? If it has improved by then, it might be a good time to start regaining some currency (if you can afford it). If not, you'll be wasting your money - stick to the day job.

It's been said so many times that I'm almost sick of repeating it, but timing is everything in this game. Your timing could not have been worse, but it's not the end of the world. If you can cover the bills until the job market does improve, and afford some IR practice then, so that you are reasonably current, you will eventually find a job. I have a friend who graduated from BAe (now FTE) in 2002, without a hope of employment. He managed to get work in the civil service, which tided him over until the job market picked up, then got on the CTC Wings scheme, and now flies for BA.

With enough determination (and financial support) nothing is impossible, but your choice of timing has made your task extraordinarily difficult.
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Old 20th Jul 2009, 08:54
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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My eyebrows are often slightly raised in threads such as these.

What I find surprising is the questions that are put sometimes forward and the 'support' and also the 'derision' that they invoke.

First off, Simon,
Hang in there. If you just keep presenting well at your interviews
Are you kidding me ? keep presenting yourself well at interviews!

Anybody, even an experienced line pilot with time on type will be damn lucky to even get a call in for an interview right now.

The point that you are missing by 'a country mile' simon is that there are more pilots with time on type, line experience, in hold pools, instructing when they can get the work etc etc than there is demand right now.

You will be lucky to have your C.V. stay out of the bin, let alone get the chance to attend an interview. Note, that is interview, singular not plural.

dudeatstarwars...

Fair enough, you are new into this industry. We all were once upon a time, so you have questions and have a degree of uncertainty about certain aspects of the industry.

However,

You are on a 'first officer course' with cabair. As such, to ask the question on what it means to stay current is an 'eye-opener'. As a CPL you should have an understanding of the regulations that govern your license. Not only is it part of the CPL exams, you should have an understanding what, not only the currency requirements are, but what it means.

This is where some of us who have been in this industry for some years take a blunt response.

Often we see questions asked on simple applicability. The answers are not national secrets. In fact, the answers are often available on the websites for the the appropriate aviation authority. If someone who either purports to be a commercial pilot, or is working toward becoming a commercial pilot doesn't know where to look then that says something.

The experienced people on this have no problem in trading and sharing information and knowledge with those who are less experienced, however when a question arises such as "what is currency" or "what are the requirements to convert an ICAO CPL" or "I have a JAA CPL is this an ICAO CPL?" the general thought process that follows is "Oh come on!"

These are not questions that someone who has a professional license should be asking.

First off, if you hold or are working toward a professional license then you should be thinking like a professional.

If you hold a professional license then you are, for all intents and purposes a professional.

What must be considered is that some people post responses and advice with the understanding that we were all new to this industry once and are happy to share thoughts so when there is advice that this industry is facing to coin a political quote "unprecidented times of difficulty and instability" and that this is not a good time to be starting, or indeed in an integrated course, or looking for a job fresh out of one; LISTEN!

For those who are in that position, or are considering one right now, do not take it as a personal attack on you. The integrated training facilities have sold you on fiction and projections that are as unrealistic as those of Alistair Darling / Gordon Brown.

Personally, I think that the integrated training facilities are drifting very close to Advertising Standards. It's interesting to note how the benefits will be expressed verbally but in writing is it more, well lets say 'ambiguous'.

The resultant factor is that people that have been in this industry for a period of time see questions asked that are frankly questions that an ab-intio would be asking, not a professional license holder and the responses therefore are brutal.

Going back to the title of this thread, people like WWW have given apt advice.

Yes, he is often classed as being negative. Being, factual of the situation is not negative. It is fact. It may not be what you want to hear, but as a professional do you want to work with fact or fantasy?
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Old 20th Jul 2009, 09:33
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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The worrying thing is to think of how many people out there who are in dudeatstarwars position.
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Old 20th Jul 2009, 09:47
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Simon,

there is noting wrong with having an idealistic intention as long as it tempered with reality.

Would you rather advice be more attune to "blowing smoke up your ass"?
If so then fine, there are jobs out there, plenty of them, go get em guys and gals!

That is not the truth, if someone genuinely asks for advice on the current situation then fine. If you dismiss asked advice as it is not what you want to hear, then don't ask.

It is more supportive to others to advise that the job market is worse than difficult right now and not to sit there anticipating a flight deck position.

Over the course of the years you will always work with, fly with, come into contact with people that have more experience than you, that have been there seen it and done it before, you would do well to listen to them not disregard anyone that that tells you something you don't want to hear as
a smattering of one-upmanship,negativity, abuse and pretences of knowledge
.

Again, this comes back to the point of being a professional. If you take factual advice from the experienced as offence, then perhaps you are not suited to being an effective cockpit crew member.
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Old 20th Jul 2009, 11:16
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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I think all the NEGATIVITY in this thread should be used as a very strong WARNING to all wannabes that the glossy image of handing over 80K in return for a First Officer flying job is far from reality in the current environment! And anyone thinking of starting abinitio this or next year should look through all the marketing
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Old 20th Jul 2009, 21:41
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Now I happen to be a wannabe pilot and apparently also an "ignorant idiot" (according to what I have been reading in these posts). I can't help but wonder, do the regulars to PPRuNe set out to apportion blame and treat people like crap for asking a question? I have been a member of PPRuNe for years and although I don't usually contribute I definitely get a laugh out of reading some of the posts on this forum. Most of the ones I have read have always been very negative. I don't understand why if someone asks a question in what is, after all, the "WANABEE" section of PPRuNe, he gets bullied to the extent of being called names. I'm sorry but I have to say I'm appalled. Now my advice, even though i'm "ignorant", is of course to do what some of the people, after they finished insulting the guy, said. I am personally hoping to get some turbine time up in the next couple of months flying an aircraft owned by a distant cousin of mine. I am also quite interested in the "free flying" part time aspect of glider towing or in jobs in Africa flying safari tours in C206s and then on 208s, anything to get experience really. At the moment, as the market stands, I think getting down and dirty for a couple of years is the best way to do things. This was done by countless previous wanabees, still is and I think will be a way of "growing" as a pilot for years to come. I understand it is not feasible to expect to jump directly into the airlines but that is not going to stop me sending out CVs to absolutely everybody I can think of. You never know what their answer might be... For what I have just written I will probably have a pile of s**t flying my way in a couple of minutes, but I thought I finally had to say something. Anyway, I am preparing my umbrella in case of any runny replies...
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Old 21st Jul 2009, 14:49
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
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There were quite a few posters in this thread who gave constructive advice to starwars without the sarcasm or the jab. I think wannabes in general will appreciate that and welcome more of it.
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Old 22nd Jul 2009, 20:43
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Whoa..

poor chap just asked a question.. yeah ok was a bit naive but...

look; the fella is 20 years old.. He has just come out of school and so any organization with the word "school" or "college" in it; he is going to assume that they have his best interests at heart. Besides; before we all started in this industry how many aviation contacts did we all have to put us straight?? How many questions on PPRuNe have you seen answered completely differently (sometimes even by the same person!!) so how would you know who to trust. I know this was sort of the situation i was in; started training a year after 9/11. Sod all jobs at the time (working now though)..

The trouble is the people who know better are all in the industry; and the people who should know better (FTO'S) have an interest in saying things are great. When is the last time you have heard an FTO say "actually no; now is not the time to train"? It is frustrating to see newbies come in to find all their expectations dashed but until the FTO's start telling something approaching the truth then this will continue.
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Old 22nd Jul 2009, 21:18
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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The End.

Sorry to tell you this, but the industry is dying.

I don't expect to be working in a couple of years, and am maxing out on overtime to save up for the chop. Having lost 2 good flying jobs since 1998, as a seasoned A320/A330 pilot, I pride myself on being a realist. No more work for me, in all likelihood.

Folks, don't waste your money. (Sorry)
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Old 23rd Jul 2009, 10:36
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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How about working part-time behind the ops desk at Cabair. Grab as many ferries as you can to reamin current. Statistically this tended to lead to a proper job. Keeps you involved anyway
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Old 27th Jul 2009, 19:20
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Hi guys and girls!

This, as you may notice, is my first post so hopefully I wont do anything wrong or break any forum rules. I did read them all Scroggs, honest!

I, unfortunatley, am in the same position as dudeatstarwars . I did however, by the looks of things, do a bit more research into the current situation believe it or not. I have started my proffessional training at a very bad time given the economic climate but decided to continue knowing that I could afford it now- something I may not be able to do further down the line.

Clearly there are no jet jobs for someone in my position but the advice on this and other threads has been invaluable so thank you to those who have come up with some useful advice and information.

It does appear that a lot of training providers these days are churning out students who really have no concept of the airline industry and think that just because they have a nice shiny new fATPL that an airline will take them on!! But I guess thats what happens when so many people are allowed to undertake proffessional pilot training having studied nothing but the 'Bristol database' for 6 months! IMHO this is a real issue because given 6 months to study the database I think my mum could pass most of the ATPL theory exams! Not enough emphasis is given to learning the technical side these days- it all just appears to be answer learning!!!

I have completed the first two years of the Kingston University degree in 'Aviation Studies for Commercial Pilot Training' at Cabair in Bournemouth. The course content is the JAA sylabus but taken further so in 18 months you learn what you need for the ATPL exams and a fair bit more. The university exams are not multiple choice and thus are subjective answer type questions. This forces you to know your stuff especially seeing as the majority of the exam questions require 'applied knowledge' i.e. not something you have ever been taught but require a good deal of understanding in other areas to answer. I plan to continue onto the third year of my degree at Kingston to complete the engineering degree.

Apologies for going a bit off topic there but I think that there are too many people with no real understanding of the job situation/industry today. A course like the one I have done is intended to draw in people who can think for themselves and who do not expect everything to be handed to them on a plate! I know plenty of people who have done their ATPLs and have no clue what to do with them. Many I expect will just let them lapse and never do anything- very sad having spent all this money.

Sorry if I have waffled on a bit but just thought I'd share my thoughts with everyone on 'fresh fATPL' holders! I myself hope to become one in the next month as my IR test is booked for 2 weeks time .

Ad
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Old 29th Jul 2009, 03:22
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
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@G-ADAM, it would be helpful for many wannabes from your country, if you can also elaborate on what kind of work you can apply for after completing this particular degree, also the job availability and prospects, the earning potential in the first couple of years.
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Old 29th Jul 2009, 16:12
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Hi Jetzup,

well the answer is... I don't actually know! This course is still in it's infancy and in fact, my year is the first year that the course has ever run. There is currently a course one year behind us with twelve students in the class and there were twenty in ours. There is a new intake (2 classes) starting in September and there should be about 40 ish new students.

Once my year has finished then we will have at least some statistics but given the intellectual ability of some on my course, I don't think more than about half will get flying jobs! Who knows though. Given the current job market, or lack of it, I don't think many of us will gain employment as aircrew any time soon but I'll keep you updated if we do!

The course itself is aimed at people who ultimately want to end up in the right-hand seat of an airliner but I know of one person who is just doing it for the degree. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to 'advertise' the course in this thread but if you want more info, check the Cabair website it's all on there

Hope that helps!
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Old 1st Aug 2009, 09:58
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Oh dear. This is the first time I've logged on in months. Now I remember why. There are some harsh truths on here, but also some nasty comments I don't understand. As someone mentionned earlier WWW was merely voicing predictions, and how correct they've been. (Can you advise me on some stocks and shares.) I did my research for several years before starting the modular route, and qualified with CPL/IR/MCC in January 2008. Unlike the optimists from Cabair and Oxford, I spent the latter half of my training (working full-time) thinking I'd made a monumental mistake. I always knew that 260 hours was "scum of the earth" territory. The last 18 months have only reinforced this. Not a single interview, from Europe to HK, and everywhere in between. A friend of mine flies the A300-600 Freighter in Far East, and it is amazing, demanding, and rewarding. (I agree about this rediculous misconception about cargo. I would be thrilled and do pretty much anything to get to that position. In no way is it 2nd rate flying. Quite the opposite I would say. Max T/O weights. Into challenging destinations. Superb in my opinion.)
I know multiple former XL pilots, and I feel for some of these guys immensely. (Some of them were the most arrogant pilots I've ever met.) I know several that still have found no work. If they are in that position, how do guys like me stand any chance.
What staggers me is that a gentleman with whom I work, and has seen me struggle, has taken his son to The Flyer open day, followed by an Oxford day, and has been sold an 80,000 Integrated course starting in October. Deposit paid. I nearly burst into laughter when he told me, followed by tears.
Just writing my thoughts here so little structure to this.
My conclusion is that there will be no real improvement in two years as the government and "experts" predict. My CPL/IR/MCC will be 3 and a 1/2 years old. My sharpness and proficiency will have suffered. My wife's patience will have been exhasuted, and my keenness all but evaporated. My debt will be gone in 18 months, and the thought of taking on more is about as appealing as sticking a pineapple up my a**. Newly qualified MPL pilots with their new blue books will be far fresher than me, an increassingly cynical 35 year old.
I work on the ground at a huge airport, and the public is becoming increasingly vile. Yesterday two co-workers were verbally abused by passengers. One lady called a , and a colleague from St. Lucia called a . Do I really want to spend hours in the air with these people???? Getting home at 0700?? Not sure anymore. Having done 10+ hours in 757-200 sim recently, actually got bored after about 5 hours. Heaven forbid, I've said it. Bored.
WWW. Boy do I wish I'd known you 6 years ago to avoid this nonsense. Out of the negative comes a positive I suppose. I'll stop wishing my life away, and turn my back on this fantasy. No IR renewal for 18 months, if I can be bothered. Feel better now!
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