OAT vs FTE
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I have been out of Oxford for a couple of months now. In terms of actually getting a recommendation, I know that a few people are getting put forward to FlyBE.
I haven't been selected for a recommendation as of yet, so I'm just hoping right now that this all changes soon. As, many others will say, this job search is really really hard.
That aside, the OAT careers team do try their best to get as many recommendations as they possibly can do. The problem is that in reality, that is a reflection of the market right now - not many recruiting and aside from Ryanair, a lot of students everywhere, just are not getting jobs. This will change, as it does. However, with the slow down in the industry, we're all a little bit stuck.
In reality though, if FlyBE isn't forthcoming, my main concern is now that I should have just saved the money and gone modular and spend the rest on the Type Rating when it comes around.
I cannot complain at all about the level of instruction that I recieved during my time at Oxford. Everything was first rate. The groundschool instructors (give or take one or two!) really knew their fields, and the flight instructors I had were fantastic and really helpful. The US side of things was really quite disorganised (shambolic sometimes!), however I have been told that this is now being sorted out.
At the end of the day, anyone who is finishing a training course this year though, should prepare for quite a horrible ride to get a job at the end.
I haven't been selected for a recommendation as of yet, so I'm just hoping right now that this all changes soon. As, many others will say, this job search is really really hard.
That aside, the OAT careers team do try their best to get as many recommendations as they possibly can do. The problem is that in reality, that is a reflection of the market right now - not many recruiting and aside from Ryanair, a lot of students everywhere, just are not getting jobs. This will change, as it does. However, with the slow down in the industry, we're all a little bit stuck.
In reality though, if FlyBE isn't forthcoming, my main concern is now that I should have just saved the money and gone modular and spend the rest on the Type Rating when it comes around.
I cannot complain at all about the level of instruction that I recieved during my time at Oxford. Everything was first rate. The groundschool instructors (give or take one or two!) really knew their fields, and the flight instructors I had were fantastic and really helpful. The US side of things was really quite disorganised (shambolic sometimes!), however I have been told that this is now being sorted out.
At the end of the day, anyone who is finishing a training course this year though, should prepare for quite a horrible ride to get a job at the end.
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How does this recomendation work?
Can I put myself forward to airlines whilst on the course or is it strictly done by OAA. I have close links with BA so naturally that would be the airline I would be going for.
Can I put myself forward to airlines whilst on the course or is it strictly done by OAA. I have close links with BA so naturally that would be the airline I would be going for.
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As has been said over and over, both FTE and OAT are 'equal' in what they teach and how well they do so. Therefore it boils down to personal preference and in particular, where you think YOU will be happy.
I went to OAT and have visited many friends who are currently at Oxford (AP279/280 living at Upper Heyford!
) and they all get on well, there's a good atmosphere and they're a great bunch of guys and girls. All have done really well in their Phase 1's too.
However, for me OAT didn't seem to offer a 'complete' package if you like, largely in terms of the social side of things. FTE seemed to push the work hard, play hard ethos a lot more, plus it reminded me of my Uni days!
I went to OAT and have visited many friends who are currently at Oxford (AP279/280 living at Upper Heyford!
) and they all get on well, there's a good atmosphere and they're a great bunch of guys and girls. All have done really well in their Phase 1's too.However, for me OAT didn't seem to offer a 'complete' package if you like, largely in terms of the social side of things. FTE seemed to push the work hard, play hard ethos a lot more, plus it reminded me of my Uni days!
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Adios,
"Majority" was the wrong word for me to use. Let's just review that. The biggest single number of cadets going to a particular airline from OAT in 2007 was 57 to Ryanair and so far it is again in 2008. The Ryanair angle wasn't really my point. All your questions are answered in the FR terms and conditions threads if you want specifics.
(The training pay lasts only a couple of months. Then you go onto contract with more respectable earnings. Then after 500h on the line you move onto the good money. It won't take you long to get to that milestone).
I'm pretty much in disagreement with your statement that most of the guys who go to OAT and are placed don't have to pay for there type ratings. Could you win me round by listing the airlines that you think do give free type ratings to cadets? You don't need to mention BA (I agree the allowances are good if you put the work in and senority will eventually kick in), Flybe (utterly ****e pay) or BMI, although i do believe a couple of grand is required up front (nothing really) with just over a £100 taken out of your salary for the next 5 years. I'm just interested in hearing about the other airlines???
Please anybody who decides to go for an integrated FTO be prepared to spend in the region of 100k. Don't kid yourself! Anything less is a bonus!
"Majority" was the wrong word for me to use. Let's just review that. The biggest single number of cadets going to a particular airline from OAT in 2007 was 57 to Ryanair and so far it is again in 2008. The Ryanair angle wasn't really my point. All your questions are answered in the FR terms and conditions threads if you want specifics.
(The training pay lasts only a couple of months. Then you go onto contract with more respectable earnings. Then after 500h on the line you move onto the good money. It won't take you long to get to that milestone).
I'm pretty much in disagreement with your statement that most of the guys who go to OAT and are placed don't have to pay for there type ratings. Could you win me round by listing the airlines that you think do give free type ratings to cadets? You don't need to mention BA (I agree the allowances are good if you put the work in and senority will eventually kick in), Flybe (utterly ****e pay) or BMI, although i do believe a couple of grand is required up front (nothing really) with just over a £100 taken out of your salary for the next 5 years. I'm just interested in hearing about the other airlines???
Please anybody who decides to go for an integrated FTO be prepared to spend in the region of 100k. Don't kid yourself! Anything less is a bonus!
Last edited by Diamond_Dog; 13th Feb 2008 at 19:24.
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Diamond Dog,
Perhaps the term "cadet" needs definition to make the point clearer. I hadn't realized it might be confusing since Ryanair refers to their new FOs in training as cadets. Otherwise, I didn't write that most guys who go to OAT and are placed don't pay for Type Ratings.
I use the term cadet to refer to those who were given conditional job offers before their OAT course started. The airlines involved are Thomas Cook, XL, FlyBe and NetJets. I don't think XL funds the Type Rating, but the other three do. This could account for up to 64 per year once the NetJets cadets finish and if all four companies keep the programmes going. Add in BA, BMI, FlyBe and DHL and the percentage that don't pay for type ratings starts getting sizable. I haven't been able to confirm yet, but I suspect Aer Lingus, Lufthansa, KLM and BA Citiflyer/Connect/whatever-they-call-it-this-month fund the Type Rating as well. This gets above 30% or so before the first NetJet cadet finishes and about 50% when NetJets are in full swing, which will show up partially in the 2008 and fully in the 2009 stats. It is correct to expect you may have to fund a TR, as even then 1 of 2 will need to fund their TR, but OAT is forthcoming on this possibility.
I agree FlyBe pay is low, but it's better than not having a job and it's better pay than a newbie FI could get after splashing out nearly £7-10K for the rating. Personally, I think flying turboprops would be very rewarding. I don't think many wannabes, including yourself, are in this just for the pay, so the real issue is can they survive and repay a loan, if they took one, on FlyBe pay until the bond is dusted? I can actually fathom more people answering yes to this question than I can to the alternative of surviving the cost of a TR and the first 500 hours at Ryanair with perhaps £800 plus in loan payments each month. For those who can survive the dues paying at Ryanair, pay gets quite good afterward and then there's the rapid unfreezing and the nearly new airplanes to enjoy. I guess it's horses for courses. Both are good because you get paid to fly, but one is easier up front, while the other is better longer term.
Perhaps the term "cadet" needs definition to make the point clearer. I hadn't realized it might be confusing since Ryanair refers to their new FOs in training as cadets. Otherwise, I didn't write that most guys who go to OAT and are placed don't pay for Type Ratings.
I use the term cadet to refer to those who were given conditional job offers before their OAT course started. The airlines involved are Thomas Cook, XL, FlyBe and NetJets. I don't think XL funds the Type Rating, but the other three do. This could account for up to 64 per year once the NetJets cadets finish and if all four companies keep the programmes going. Add in BA, BMI, FlyBe and DHL and the percentage that don't pay for type ratings starts getting sizable. I haven't been able to confirm yet, but I suspect Aer Lingus, Lufthansa, KLM and BA Citiflyer/Connect/whatever-they-call-it-this-month fund the Type Rating as well. This gets above 30% or so before the first NetJet cadet finishes and about 50% when NetJets are in full swing, which will show up partially in the 2008 and fully in the 2009 stats. It is correct to expect you may have to fund a TR, as even then 1 of 2 will need to fund their TR, but OAT is forthcoming on this possibility.
I agree FlyBe pay is low, but it's better than not having a job and it's better pay than a newbie FI could get after splashing out nearly £7-10K for the rating. Personally, I think flying turboprops would be very rewarding. I don't think many wannabes, including yourself, are in this just for the pay, so the real issue is can they survive and repay a loan, if they took one, on FlyBe pay until the bond is dusted? I can actually fathom more people answering yes to this question than I can to the alternative of surviving the cost of a TR and the first 500 hours at Ryanair with perhaps £800 plus in loan payments each month. For those who can survive the dues paying at Ryanair, pay gets quite good afterward and then there's the rapid unfreezing and the nearly new airplanes to enjoy. I guess it's horses for courses. Both are good because you get paid to fly, but one is easier up front, while the other is better longer term.
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Skintman
Condescending and sneering, immature? Well no actually. I just find it pure folly that you can justify paying over inflated prices for flight training and end up in the same job as any other joe. Does Ryanair really prefer the OAT hotshot to someone else? Doubtful. If they placed everyone at airlines such as BA or Cathay I might have a different take on the matter but they dont.
Fact is, you pay a hell of a lot more for the same thing. Personally, I would feel cheated (or stupid) when realising that I am not the skygod who BA wants to employ. I am just someone else who happened to be able to (or not) afford the integrated course that promised everything with their selection tests and gaurantees. Just because I am not it seems hanging out of OATs behind like yourself doesn't mean my views should not be aired on here.
Where is the venom in that?
Fact is, you pay a hell of a lot more for the same thing. Personally, I would feel cheated (or stupid) when realising that I am not the skygod who BA wants to employ. I am just someone else who happened to be able to (or not) afford the integrated course that promised everything with their selection tests and gaurantees. Just because I am not it seems hanging out of OATs behind like yourself doesn't mean my views should not be aired on here.
Where is the venom in that?
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Quite frankly, you are condescending and sneering, as you step over the line from arguing that it is not what you would do, to describing people you do not know as "stupid", "hotshots", and graduates of the "Arrogant pilot programme".
It is hardly surprising that 253 people who graduated last year are not all in BA, as BA recruit far fewer low-hour pilots than that each year. Furthermore, if you knew the industry you claim to talk so knowledgably about, you would know that Cathay only recruit HK citizens/residents as SOs.
It is hardly surprising that 253 people who graduated last year are not all in BA, as BA recruit far fewer low-hour pilots than that each year. Furthermore, if you knew the industry you claim to talk so knowledgably about, you would know that Cathay only recruit HK citizens/residents as SOs.
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Nevertheless Re-Heat, that is all besides the point. Not got a sprog at OAT have you by any chance? UK citizens are freely available to apply for SO positions at Cathay. Pardon me for not being the oracle that you so obviously are. I will get back in my box and learn a bit more about the industry before posting again Sir. I am perfectly obliged to fight my corner regardless. Now spare me, I might start feeling bad if you dont lay off. I am so sorry that my naughty language has rattled you. 
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No connection with OAT whatsoever and never have had one. Expressing your opinion does not require anything other than gentlemanly language to be used.
You perfectly well know that I mean low-hour/cadet candidates as SO. Cathay's requirements for SOs for whom they will sponsor a residency permit require 1000 hrs.
You perfectly well know that I mean low-hour/cadet candidates as SO. Cathay's requirements for SOs for whom they will sponsor a residency permit require 1000 hrs.
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Shaun Ryder
Quite simply, your comments are unhelpful., such as:
"to come from such a privileged background i.e OAT"
"I always thought that you guys were the top guns of the industry and landed all the cream jobs"
"hanging out of OATs behind like yourself"
"Not got a sprog at OAT have you by any chance"
Raise your views by all means, but why not keep your comments sensible and helpful, no real need for silly personal comments against contributors.
Something about OAT has obviously got your back up. Wannabies need to look at all of their options, take advice from relevant parties and make their own mind up. I have no connection with either school.
skintman
Quite simply, your comments are unhelpful., such as:
"to come from such a privileged background i.e OAT"
"I always thought that you guys were the top guns of the industry and landed all the cream jobs"
"hanging out of OATs behind like yourself"
"Not got a sprog at OAT have you by any chance"
Raise your views by all means, but why not keep your comments sensible and helpful, no real need for silly personal comments against contributors.
Something about OAT has obviously got your back up. Wannabies need to look at all of their options, take advice from relevant parties and make their own mind up. I have no connection with either school.
skintman
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Adios,
That's a very well written post. I'd wager that you work for OAT though in some capacity. Forgive my cheek. That isn't to suggest what you've written is biased or inaccurate.
I know the CTC cadets who go to TCX don't pay for TR's (as the current deal at CTC is that they don't pay wherever they go). It's good to hear they treat the OAT guy's in the same respect as TCX. Doubt they'll be taking newbies for while though will they (and paying)?
I really have know idea about XL however it's interesting to hear. No arguments on the Aer Lingus front. Lufthansa and KLM probably correct (same class as BA) although unless the OAT cadets are good at German/Dutch I would doubt they'll be getting placed there.
As far as DHL goes that is very interesting. I tried out for a few positions there in the past and all the TR's are bonded. ie one 'pays' for the type rating and they give a sum back tax free on top of the cadet salary each month for 5 years until that specific costing is repaid. Is it different for OAT guys then? Do they just get a free TR with the ability to walk away from the company 6 months later with a spanking 757 TR to go else where on direct entry pay?
Are we getting confused on the issue of 'bonding' here? Or are all these airlines that you have noted giving completely free TR's (be it with cadet entry pay) with no contractual or financial obligations to the cadets?
That's a very well written post. I'd wager that you work for OAT though in some capacity. Forgive my cheek. That isn't to suggest what you've written is biased or inaccurate.
I know the CTC cadets who go to TCX don't pay for TR's (as the current deal at CTC is that they don't pay wherever they go). It's good to hear they treat the OAT guy's in the same respect as TCX. Doubt they'll be taking newbies for while though will they (and paying)?
I really have know idea about XL however it's interesting to hear. No arguments on the Aer Lingus front. Lufthansa and KLM probably correct (same class as BA) although unless the OAT cadets are good at German/Dutch I would doubt they'll be getting placed there.
As far as DHL goes that is very interesting. I tried out for a few positions there in the past and all the TR's are bonded. ie one 'pays' for the type rating and they give a sum back tax free on top of the cadet salary each month for 5 years until that specific costing is repaid. Is it different for OAT guys then? Do they just get a free TR with the ability to walk away from the company 6 months later with a spanking 757 TR to go else where on direct entry pay?
Are we getting confused on the issue of 'bonding' here? Or are all these airlines that you have noted giving completely free TR's (be it with cadet entry pay) with no contractual or financial obligations to the cadets?
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Shaun Ryder. 
Oh dear oh dear. What a shame you don't see the benefit in the integrated route. Your incredible superiority complex, arrogance and condescending attitude to those who undertake this route means that you'd have fit right in - at least with what you perceive it to be....
I find it interesting that you rarely see any [credible] integrated students have a bad word to say about the modular route, yet mod students seem rarely able to return the favour....instead insisting that Mod is the ONLY route to go and you must be braindead to go integrated.
On the main point being discussed here....with a slowdown looming, I would suggest that there are two ways of perceiving the opportunities on offer to those with low hours. The first is that less jobs = more competition, so you need to give yourself every opportunity and each tiny facet you can add to your armoury is a valuable tool. The second view would be to take as little debt as you can to achieve the licence, so if you DON'T get a job, then it's less of a problem.
Who's to say which is the right perspective. I certainly don't know myself, I just know it would not be a good situation to be in [not being able to find a job] regardless of your route.
Oh dear oh dear. What a shame you don't see the benefit in the integrated route. Your incredible superiority complex, arrogance and condescending attitude to those who undertake this route means that you'd have fit right in - at least with what you perceive it to be....
I find it interesting that you rarely see any [credible] integrated students have a bad word to say about the modular route, yet mod students seem rarely able to return the favour....instead insisting that Mod is the ONLY route to go and you must be braindead to go integrated.
On the main point being discussed here....with a slowdown looming, I would suggest that there are two ways of perceiving the opportunities on offer to those with low hours. The first is that less jobs = more competition, so you need to give yourself every opportunity and each tiny facet you can add to your armoury is a valuable tool. The second view would be to take as little debt as you can to achieve the licence, so if you DON'T get a job, then it's less of a problem.
Who's to say which is the right perspective. I certainly don't know myself, I just know it would not be a good situation to be in [not being able to find a job] regardless of your route.
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Johnny1981, you said
"Nice living accomodation.
Not to far from the beach"
I'd like to know which FTE you went to! The fire alarms always went off in Block 28, the washers were usually u/s (especially when someone loads a dryer with washing powder!) and it was always about 45 mins to the beach we went to which we thought was the closest we could find! And the beer might have been 1.50 euros a pint but it usually tasted rank!
Apart from that FTE was a reasonable experience and I had a flying job within 18 days of graduation.
(i wasn't 'tagged' either, and I never found any merit in being tagged; the management I dealt with were concerned with results, not if you were tagged or not, but I feel a hail of abuse coming my way!
I was the first employed from my course [no disrespect to my fellow coursemates of course!] so I have no gripes with FTE!)
In the end it's not about OAT vs FTE, the only people who care are those who went to neither I've found. Just pick the school that suits your budget and lifestyle!
Atreyu
"Nice living accomodation.
Not to far from the beach"
I'd like to know which FTE you went to! The fire alarms always went off in Block 28, the washers were usually u/s (especially when someone loads a dryer with washing powder!) and it was always about 45 mins to the beach we went to which we thought was the closest we could find!
And the beer might have been 1.50 euros a pint but it usually tasted rank!Apart from that FTE was a reasonable experience and I had a flying job within 18 days of graduation.
(i wasn't 'tagged' either, and I never found any merit in being tagged; the management I dealt with were concerned with results, not if you were tagged or not, but I feel a hail of abuse coming my way!
I was the first employed from my course [no disrespect to my fellow coursemates of course!] so I have no gripes with FTE!)In the end it's not about OAT vs FTE, the only people who care are those who went to neither I've found. Just pick the school that suits your budget and lifestyle!
Atreyu
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Why Oh Why.....
I find it interesting that you rarely see any [credible] integrated students have a bad word to say about the modular route, yet mod students seem rarely able to return the favour....instead insisting that Mod is the ONLY route to go and you must be braindead to go integrated.
People on Pprune should spend more time worrying about there own decisions than slating other peoples. Maybe then they'd have a better chance of making the right choice (ie.the one that suits them best). At at the end of the day isn't that what its all about? Choosing the school that suits you best. Its immature jealousy that fuels these arguments and people asking advice on here dont need it.
My advice; speak to the students, visit the schools and most importantly dont be swayed by anyone else! ITS YOUR CHOICE!
Phil
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Nope, I'm in the very early stages of modular. I am still in the "am i making the right decision" phase. At an age where doing it fast would be best but i fancy being an FI or flying small twins for a bit just for the fun factor and the big FTO's are geared solely toward Airlines. Plus in todays environment you need to have the cash available for a TR just in case and i don't fancy any debt. I have the money to go either way but not enough for Integrated and a TR. Also i don't particularly mind my job (i work in telecoms) and it pays very well. I'm just saving money, carrying on with work and flying on weekends. Aiming at being done in 2 years and flying full time from then. Or part time and carrying on with present job....as you can see, still making decisions. One things for sure though, if everything goes Pete Tong i wont be blaming anyone but myself and I'll only be passing on constructive advice on Pprune.
Phil
Phil
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There was a phil who went to FTE who I knew quite well, I used to borrow his bass guitar when I was bored of the 6 string haha! Sounds like your being sensible with your investement and sense is something rarely seen on this forum! Good luck with your training! People like yourself go far.
Atreyu
Atreyu
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Phil,
"if everything goes Pete Tong i wont be blaming anyone but myself and I'll only be passing on constructive advice on Pprune"
It's a crazy notion, it'll never catch on.
How about instead, in the unlikely event it does go wrong, you post some drivel about how your route was definitely the ONLY way into piloting and that it was someone elses fault....probably OAT or FTEs.....but anyone who goes there must still be a mug.....
On a serious note, very nice to see a sensible, mature and considered approach. With that in tow, I very much doubt you'll need to be posting anything on here...you'll be too busy flying yourself around the world! Good luck to you.
"if everything goes Pete Tong i wont be blaming anyone but myself and I'll only be passing on constructive advice on Pprune"
It's a crazy notion, it'll never catch on.
How about instead, in the unlikely event it does go wrong, you post some drivel about how your route was definitely the ONLY way into piloting and that it was someone elses fault....probably OAT or FTEs.....but anyone who goes there must still be a mug.....
On a serious note, very nice to see a sensible, mature and considered approach. With that in tow, I very much doubt you'll need to be posting anything on here...you'll be too busy flying yourself around the world! Good luck to you.
! I should know better with you 