So where are all the jobs then?
Educated Hillbilly
Finals,
It makes me laugh everytime some associates pay to fly and sstr with degrading terms and conditions.
Look at the options, pay 6 or 7 k for an instructors rating so you can earn 15 pounds per hour flight pay only. Then if you are really lucky you might land a turboprop job with an excessive four year bond and astarting salary of 20K. Sorry but paying for a rating is really no worse than an excessive bond with a low salary. The idea of bonding may sound more preferable to paying for a rating, but you will soon realise most bonds actually stop you form being able to make decent living.
I have said the many times before the biggest contributor to the popularity of pay to fly and sstr is the appalling pay of flying instructors, the ever increasing bond values amoung the turboprop companies.
Quite simply for many individuals a pay to fly scheme is financially more viable and then spending years in GA earning next to nothing.
Besides take the cost of an instructors rating, then the price of a few IR renewals, and you are already at half the expenditure of a type rating.
Spend 12 months earning 15 pounds per hour flight pay only and for a good many of you the pay cut between a year of full time instructing and your previous job will be more than the price of a rating.
It makes me laugh everytime some associates pay to fly and sstr with degrading terms and conditions.
Look at the options, pay 6 or 7 k for an instructors rating so you can earn 15 pounds per hour flight pay only. Then if you are really lucky you might land a turboprop job with an excessive four year bond and astarting salary of 20K. Sorry but paying for a rating is really no worse than an excessive bond with a low salary. The idea of bonding may sound more preferable to paying for a rating, but you will soon realise most bonds actually stop you form being able to make decent living.
I have said the many times before the biggest contributor to the popularity of pay to fly and sstr is the appalling pay of flying instructors, the ever increasing bond values amoung the turboprop companies.
Quite simply for many individuals a pay to fly scheme is financially more viable and then spending years in GA earning next to nothing.
Besides take the cost of an instructors rating, then the price of a few IR renewals, and you are already at half the expenditure of a type rating.
Spend 12 months earning 15 pounds per hour flight pay only and for a good many of you the pay cut between a year of full time instructing and your previous job will be more than the price of a rating.
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Portsharbourflyer...
Fair enough - you are entitled to your opinion - although I personally don't share it.
SSTR and PTF have degraded terms and conditions and what's more has totally re-defined the industry (my opinion of course).
- pilots have become a mere expendable commodity as there is absolutely nil company loyalty to the pilot as an employee (indeed many are "contractors" now). There is zero financial risk to the company as they have no commitment at the training stage, so the pilot can be picked up and dropped again at company's convenience. Zero job stability whatsoever.
- Prior to SSTR, there was no paying for uniforms, paying for sim checks, paying for hotac when training etc etc. The company paid this for you, as you were a traditional employee in which they had invested time and money.
I agree that flying instructor pay is pretty deplorable - and always has been. That in itself should be rectified among with a few other things.
The TP salary you refer to is extracted from one example of one operator in the SW of the country? Again I agree that its a lot of money for a TR bond, but traditionally (like a multitude of professions) it was an excellent way to cut your teeth and hone your skills for a few years and then move on.
In an era where money talks, people now have no interest in real flying but rather in accelerating their earning potential. This assumes that you have the extra 30K in the first place to fork out for a TR.
Fair enough - you are entitled to your opinion - although I personally don't share it.
SSTR and PTF have degraded terms and conditions and what's more has totally re-defined the industry (my opinion of course).
- pilots have become a mere expendable commodity as there is absolutely nil company loyalty to the pilot as an employee (indeed many are "contractors" now). There is zero financial risk to the company as they have no commitment at the training stage, so the pilot can be picked up and dropped again at company's convenience. Zero job stability whatsoever.
- Prior to SSTR, there was no paying for uniforms, paying for sim checks, paying for hotac when training etc etc. The company paid this for you, as you were a traditional employee in which they had invested time and money.
I agree that flying instructor pay is pretty deplorable - and always has been. That in itself should be rectified among with a few other things.
The TP salary you refer to is extracted from one example of one operator in the SW of the country? Again I agree that its a lot of money for a TR bond, but traditionally (like a multitude of professions) it was an excellent way to cut your teeth and hone your skills for a few years and then move on.
In an era where money talks, people now have no interest in real flying but rather in accelerating their earning potential. This assumes that you have the extra 30K in the first place to fork out for a TR.
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It's interesting to note that there is no shortage of FR pilots wiling to jump ship to a career unionised airline such as the one I fly for. In fact many of them become quite outspoken about the degradation of t&c's once they get out and join the fold. Shame they couldn't show a bit of backbone before they jumped. Then our managers wouldn't continually be ramming down FR this and FR that at every pay round. To say there is no link between guys willing to pay and the current state of the industry is laughable.
Educated Hillbilly
To generalise my previous statemens training bonds in the UK vary from 13000 to 42000 for turboprops, though in general they average at 18000 to 20000, with starting salaries between 20-24k. Infact Eastern Airways have now effectively switched from Bonding to a self sponsored scheme, spend 20k on a jetstream rating.
The low cost airlines have created alot of flying jobs that didn't previously exist, so ask yourself what would the pilot employment market be like with out them? Better ts and cs maybe but far less flying jobs.
The low cost airlines have created alot of flying jobs that didn't previously exist, so ask yourself what would the pilot employment market be like with out them? Better ts and cs maybe but far less flying jobs.
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Ok not being too general, at times there is lots of rubbish talked on this forum, lots by peoples that paid for type rating and got no job, so are bit mad at the system, that I am understanding. 2009 I was working as Capt Airbus in Greece, economy is bad so changed to fly Boeing in Turkey, Ok for me was not problem to get job, we are bonded for 3 yrs on type rating... but for low time guys.. we took on about 20 with no hours and no type rating, deal was they do course and if they make standard they get job and are on training wage 2800 euro until passed line check then go on normal FO wage 4000 euro. If they do not meet standards, they still pay type rating costs. Nearly all got jobs, those two that did not were useless and should not have been even as pax.. Last month we took more FOs with higher hours, but they had jet time, not on type, but jet time. CRJ, RJ etc, problem for recruitment/ trainings dept is getting balance mix of low hours and experience, even if not experienced on type. Other problem is validation of licence by authority, Company still gave full type rating to guys that had bought type rating in past and bonded them again,,,why.. because they know standard of TRTO and then there is no excuse if trainings go bad..in short, even if pilot is typed, they still get full course, for Captains is short course, In Turkey there is still big pilot shortage as all airlines are expanding. FOs do DLR test.
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No type rating gets you a job too.
I second Stratobus, there are jobs for people without type rating. It might not be as good as years ago, but they still exist.
First thing you should is try is to get a position with your national carrier as a cadet if such a program is on offer. If this is not working out, you might wanna try the same approach in a neighboring country. If this still isn't producing the outcome you want, choose a decent school and get your CPL/IR/frozen ATPL. Then start to find a job, charter, FI, bizjet, regional. During the job search try to get a job at e.g. an FBO whre you meet pilots. An idela place to put your feet into the door. Then work your way up by doing a good job.
And don't forget: make sure you have a perfect CV.
I run a job website where pilots can upload their CVs and more than half of the CVs I would not even look at. Too many mistakes, typos or it comes in an inappropriate format. Sad but true!
First thing you should is try is to get a position with your national carrier as a cadet if such a program is on offer. If this is not working out, you might wanna try the same approach in a neighboring country. If this still isn't producing the outcome you want, choose a decent school and get your CPL/IR/frozen ATPL. Then start to find a job, charter, FI, bizjet, regional. During the job search try to get a job at e.g. an FBO whre you meet pilots. An idela place to put your feet into the door. Then work your way up by doing a good job.
And don't forget: make sure you have a perfect CV.
I run a job website where pilots can upload their CVs and more than half of the CVs I would not even look at. Too many mistakes, typos or it comes in an inappropriate format. Sad but true!
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guys, to make galleypower happy to look at your cv ,dont forget to ad little flowers on your cv, pink paper and a zest of gay parfum ...he will hire you.
I wonder what he does with all these C.V.?
I wonder what he does with all these C.V.?
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Very glad I found this thread.
I was considering spending£100k with Pilot Training College in order to become a pilot. I was told how there is a massive boom in the Commercial Airline industry and that there was a surge in the demand for Pilots. Instead there seems to be thousands looking for a job.
Because of this I will now only consider a sponsored/ mentored cadetship. Anything else seems silly. If there's no job at the end of it then it's pointless.
I didn't realize how much the airline industry has been hit by the recession. A decent job is just very hard to get for young, newly qualified people regardless of what industry it is in. Therefore I think working for yourself is the best way forward.
I was considering spending£100k with Pilot Training College in order to become a pilot. I was told how there is a massive boom in the Commercial Airline industry and that there was a surge in the demand for Pilots. Instead there seems to be thousands looking for a job.
Because of this I will now only consider a sponsored/ mentored cadetship. Anything else seems silly. If there's no job at the end of it then it's pointless.
I didn't realize how much the airline industry has been hit by the recession. A decent job is just very hard to get for young, newly qualified people regardless of what industry it is in. Therefore I think working for yourself is the best way forward.
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galleypower
"First thing you should is try is to get a position with your national carrier as a cadet if such a program is on offer"
Are you serious????
Rarley, No in fact.
You should take a course on how to use the web... believe everything you read.
Are you serious????
Rarley, No in fact.
You should take a course on how to use the web... believe everything you read.
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Listen up buddy . . so many of us have been through it all.
I nearly tossed my CPL in the bin many times. Then one day a job opened up in Africa. It was fantastic. I havent looked back.
I do sympathise with you.
I now have over 3000 hours, most on caravans. I have an ATP, and experience as an airline loadmaster. this however counts for nothing, as most companies want you to sell your soul and pitch up with 737 and 319 ratings and 500 hours on type etc etc. Amazing how cadets from airlines in Kenya get a job on a 737 with 250 hours. scary thought!
if you have money, do a rating. If you have a frozen ATP, then try Qatar airways if ur under 25 I think. Many airlines in Europe and the USA will take you with low hours. in South Africa . . .forget it. . . .you need 1500 hours plus ATPL to fly as FO on a jetstream (if you can get past the politics). but if you have 700 hours, and daddy has a dc9 that you logged 200 hours on. you can get straight onto the Embraer . . . nice!
ps try tanzania. they are usually looking for new crew and expat pilots.
I nearly tossed my CPL in the bin many times. Then one day a job opened up in Africa. It was fantastic. I havent looked back.
I do sympathise with you.
I now have over 3000 hours, most on caravans. I have an ATP, and experience as an airline loadmaster. this however counts for nothing, as most companies want you to sell your soul and pitch up with 737 and 319 ratings and 500 hours on type etc etc. Amazing how cadets from airlines in Kenya get a job on a 737 with 250 hours. scary thought!
if you have money, do a rating. If you have a frozen ATP, then try Qatar airways if ur under 25 I think. Many airlines in Europe and the USA will take you with low hours. in South Africa . . .forget it. . . .you need 1500 hours plus ATPL to fly as FO on a jetstream (if you can get past the politics). but if you have 700 hours, and daddy has a dc9 that you logged 200 hours on. you can get straight onto the Embraer . . . nice!
ps try tanzania. they are usually looking for new crew and expat pilots.
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Many airlines in Europe and the USA will take you with low hours.
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Many airlines in Europe and the USA will take you with low hours.
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Now, you might meet hiring minimums at a regional airline with 800hrs, but by 2013, 1500hrs and your ATP will be the minimum in the USA, per law
they have just 2 years to get all their pilots with 1500h, or the airline will be grounded or kicked out.
let's see, if they hire now a lower time pilot, 200h, he has 2 years to make 1300h. 650 hours a year, so far so good.ok?
now next year, pilots will have only 1 year to make these magical 1300h to complete with his 200h, when airlines max fly is 1000h/year.Airlines are ******, and will hire guys with 650h at least so he will reach the 1500h TT in 1 year.
in 2 years, they will have to hire pilots with minimum 1500h . once all these guys are hired, what next? considering the surplus of pilot is 20%in the USA.
Once all these unemployed pilots are back flying for minimum salary, what will happen next?
If the airline industry need more pilots(to compensate retirements, pilots leaving for good the industry,...), will pilots borrow more money for a cpl and 1500h as a FI to be paid 800$ a month in a flight school?(when pilots have already 50'000-100'000$ debts?).
what bank will lend this money?nobody.Banks have learned their lesson. The Bankruptcy generation is over.
I predict USA will have a pilot shortage in 3 years.The peak will be in 2017,next crisis, maybe 2019... The airlines will be short of pilots willing to be paid **** and never make a living (first salary in a regional airline is 1300$ a month and they need 4000h at least to join a major airline, in the future major airlines will adapt salary for slaves).
I don't see any pilot shortage in the EU for these next 7 years as long we have these p2f(pay to fly ) schemes around . EU pilots or US pilots are once again ******!!
USA can not hire EU pilots. in worse case, they will train their own pilots (cadets).
in a general way, if you look at these last 20 years, there are not many job for pilots. The worst place are EU and India for low time pilots(due to a small General Industry).
How many young pilots I have met in my life?, hundred, most without job, and the amazing thing is to see the flight schools being overfilled by young chaps who don't know anything and most think they will fly a jet right after their expensive flight school (the "me me me or want all asap" generation").
Like a guy, not long time ago, told me he will fly a jet once he has his license and he has spent all his daddy cash in an expensive school . Now this muppet has nothing left, fly maybe 1-2 hours a month, he still survives with daddy money .
What this punk is going to do in 5-10 years? nothing...complaining there is no job and telling to everyone he did a mistake!
I am telling you, do something else more productive , learn a backup job where you can make real money and be happy
.
Last edited by captainsuperstorm; 18th Apr 2011 at 06:43.
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Hey launchpad,
Thats quite an inspiring post there. Good to know that there are still jobs out there in Africa.
Its really sad the way people just jump straight from 152s n 172s to the 737s and 320s. most have my friends from the flying club have done that. (lets pretend they did it out of sheer hard work and big daddy's influence and money didnt have anything to do with it.)
However, I just want to fly a nice slow turboprop over a beautiful country and enjoy the flights staying away from busy airports and airspaces. Africa seems to be the place to do just that.
Problem is that I just have 263 hrs TT, FAA CPL on a PA34-200T, CFI is not an option cause I am not an american and they dont take outsiders. And I cant afford a trip down to Africa without any real leads to follow on.
You mentioned something about Tanzania being a place where they take on expats, is 263 hours TT enough to qualify for such jobs?
Since you are out there in Africa right now, I am sure you are aware about job market there, I would appreciate if you could advise me about my predicament. PM me if possible.
Thanks.
Thats quite an inspiring post there. Good to know that there are still jobs out there in Africa.
Its really sad the way people just jump straight from 152s n 172s to the 737s and 320s. most have my friends from the flying club have done that. (lets pretend they did it out of sheer hard work and big daddy's influence and money didnt have anything to do with it.)
However, I just want to fly a nice slow turboprop over a beautiful country and enjoy the flights staying away from busy airports and airspaces. Africa seems to be the place to do just that.
Problem is that I just have 263 hrs TT, FAA CPL on a PA34-200T, CFI is not an option cause I am not an american and they dont take outsiders. And I cant afford a trip down to Africa without any real leads to follow on.
You mentioned something about Tanzania being a place where they take on expats, is 263 hours TT enough to qualify for such jobs?
Since you are out there in Africa right now, I am sure you are aware about job market there, I would appreciate if you could advise me about my predicament. PM me if possible.
Thanks.
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if you want fly in africa, tanzania,you have to know that 200-300h is not enough nowadays.
their minimum are actually around 2000h and this is to apply only. It doesn't mean you will get the job, but immigration & CAA will grant you a work permit & validation if you have their minimum.
I can tell you, there is noway to make your hours as there are not many jobs floating around. If there is a job available, you are very lucky, or you know someone.
Just applying, sending your CV after reading ads in newspaper is not enough, as 500 pilots are applying to the same job.
Pretty much if you see an ad looking for pilots, you are waisting your time as you will always find someone who has more experience than you.or you will find a pilot who is ready to pay more than you to fly a few hours.
The only way to get a job, is to know a friend who work for a company, or having a girlfriend who dad is the boss, or open your own company.
In my point of view, this market is saturated with low hours pilots, and the future doesn't sound very bright.Look at the last 20 years, training has always become more expensive, salaries are lower and lower to the point pilots now pay to work, fuel is more expensive and employees are treated like ****.
Actually nothing is showing a change in this trend.Degradation will be worse and worse. Sorry to not sound very rosy, but this is the hard reality of this profession, Ok, who is the next one willing to spend lot of money in a useless training to play the pilot with ray-ban and golden strips an with no real job at the end?. who 's next? after10 years, you will have flown maybe 300 hours, make some quids, and thats all. you will finish with no real profession at 40 living with dady and mommy , blaming the worldwide economy...do something else, for Pete' sake!!!
even if you land a job on Boeing, it' s not going to be enough to fly an airbus or any jet as most operator ask for 500h on type before getting the job. So if you are lucky , by example you land a job on a caravan or dash, or whatever..., you make your 500h on caravan, and then they kick you out or company close , where do you go then? fly a caravan all your life in the middle of the jungle, how do you go on jet if you have not jet experience?no multi pilot experience.
At the end, this profession become so limited than anyone trying to fly for a living will finish stuck in the rat race.
I am a captain, can not find a job, license older than 3 months old and I have to spend a fortune just to apply!!! and what I get in return, **** salary? bad T&C
see?I am stuck too!
their minimum are actually around 2000h and this is to apply only. It doesn't mean you will get the job, but immigration & CAA will grant you a work permit & validation if you have their minimum.
I can tell you, there is noway to make your hours as there are not many jobs floating around. If there is a job available, you are very lucky, or you know someone.
Just applying, sending your CV after reading ads in newspaper is not enough, as 500 pilots are applying to the same job.
Pretty much if you see an ad looking for pilots, you are waisting your time as you will always find someone who has more experience than you.or you will find a pilot who is ready to pay more than you to fly a few hours.
The only way to get a job, is to know a friend who work for a company, or having a girlfriend who dad is the boss, or open your own company.
In my point of view, this market is saturated with low hours pilots, and the future doesn't sound very bright.Look at the last 20 years, training has always become more expensive, salaries are lower and lower to the point pilots now pay to work, fuel is more expensive and employees are treated like ****.
Actually nothing is showing a change in this trend.Degradation will be worse and worse. Sorry to not sound very rosy, but this is the hard reality of this profession, Ok, who is the next one willing to spend lot of money in a useless training to play the pilot with ray-ban and golden strips an with no real job at the end?. who 's next?
after10 years, you will have flown maybe 300 hours, make some quids, and thats all. you will finish with no real profession at 40 living with dady and mommy , blaming the worldwide economy...do something else, for Pete' sake!!!even if you land a job on Boeing, it' s not going to be enough to fly an airbus or any jet as most operator ask for 500h on type before getting the job. So if you are lucky , by example you land a job on a caravan or dash, or whatever..., you make your 500h on caravan, and then they kick you out or company close , where do you go then? fly a caravan all your life in the middle of the jungle, how do you go on jet if you have not jet experience?no multi pilot experience.
At the end, this profession become so limited than anyone trying to fly for a living will finish stuck in the rat race.
I am a captain, can not find a job, license older than 3 months old and I have to spend a fortune just to apply!!! and what I get in return, **** salary? bad T&C
see?I am stuck too!
Last edited by captainsuperstorm; 6th May 2011 at 06:36.