So where are all the jobs then?
Join Date: Nov 2010
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p2f is now over.
the only 2 countries. indonesia and malaysia have stop this scam.
if you are thinking to pay one of these companies based in Florida or anywhere else , good luck, you may never fly a jet, and you wont see your money back as well.
this happened to 2 guys I know.it was a NOGO for them.
EASA will soon pass a new rule for 2011. no P2F in europe.allready prohibided in germany.
the only 2 countries. indonesia and malaysia have stop this scam.
if you are thinking to pay one of these companies based in Florida or anywhere else , good luck, you may never fly a jet, and you wont see your money back as well.
this happened to 2 guys I know.it was a NOGO for them.
EASA will soon pass a new rule for 2011. no P2F in europe.allready prohibided in germany.
Join Date: Apr 2010
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like everything in life my friend its not what you know but who you know. make some contacts, meet some people who are in the industry and can open some doors for you, maybe get you the interview that you otherwise wouldnt have. I know i chose my training course because of the industry contacts involved with it. its run by an airline consultancy company who already recruit on behalf of the airlines and whos staff are on the interview and hiring panels for airlines and whom some of are still flying for part time. It may sound to some like in 'cheating' or taking the 'easy road' but you gotta do what you gotta do. these guys are getting airlines interested in us even though we only have 250hrs when we would normally be shunned by airlines for having such small hrs. its not like we are underqualified though, we each have our CPL, ATPL, MEIR, IREX and yes we may not have the experience of others but that comes with the jobs, cant gain experience without a job. We also have access to around 12 different sims when the time comes to type. yeah the training cost a lot, and i researched for about 24 months before choosing a course, but its no more than if i had of done it anywhere else.
Long story short go make some contacts. might not get you a job but gets your foot in the door for an interview at least.
Long story short go make some contacts. might not get you a job but gets your foot in the door for an interview at least.
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P2F schemes
Pay to fly schemes baned ???, is that really true ??, it will cost the traveling public money, and planes are not crasching in big numbers ??? .
Documentation anybody ???
Documentation anybody ???
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I think its more wishful thinking than fact. Airlines will never say no to another income generating scheme, simply put it down to flight training.
I hope it would stop but cant see it, best way is to gain contacts and networking. Keep current and try to stay positive and yes you will still need that element of luck.
I hope it would stop but cant see it, best way is to gain contacts and networking. Keep current and try to stay positive and yes you will still need that element of luck.
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when you find an ad on line , no need to apply. 5 seconds later, they received 3000 CV.most of you, don't even fit their minimum.
seriously guys, you need a brain check.
This market is dead for several years (10 years at least)! Have you seen the number of unemployed pilots flooding this market?? airlines have enough pilots for the next 20 years.
What is an Airline pilots?
seriously guys, you need a brain check.
This market is dead for several years (10 years at least)! Have you seen the number of unemployed pilots flooding this market?? airlines have enough pilots for the next 20 years.
What is an Airline pilots?
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End of flying dream
I am a Singaporean in my early 30s. Just wish to share my experience of my failed attempts to start a flying career .
Over the last 7 years, I am an avid follower of this and other aviation forums. I also watched many flying related news (e.g. stalling/diving training clips on youtube, aircrash investigation on cable tv, salary comparison webpages, etc). I have an engineering degree, am physically fit and have near perfect eyesight. I have applied for but failed to clear the first stage of SIA pilot cadet program thrice between 2005 – 2007. I signed up for PPL training in Malaysia in 2007 and my AME speculated that my disclosure of childhood asthma had put me at a steep disadvantage for the SIA cadetship. However the AME felt that my childhood asthma should not affect my flying and cleared me for Class 2.
My brief foray into self-sponsored PPL training (I did not complete the training) made me realize that flying requires intense concentration but is not that difficult (I have advanced boat, kayak, car and diving licenses). However even completing the basic PPL training on self-sponsorship is both very expensive and time consuming. For the latter, I had experienced making a four hour round trip headache-inducing bus journey to the airport (across the border), waiting two hours for the rain to stop, before my allotted slot expires, and ended up wasting an entire day without even getting close to the Piper. Self-sponsored PPL training usually provides you with the minimal and cannot be compared to the breadth, depth, focus and experience of the instructors at full time cadetship.
Very recently an opening for Jetstar ‘Cadetship’ opened up. I applied and was selected for an interview at a local hotel in Singapore this Friday. After careful research and consideration, I declined to attend the interview. I had in fact taken 2 days of annual leave from work to come to this decision. The decision was not an easy one to make. Although it had no real adverse impact on my life, it signaled the end of my pursuit for my dream career.
My reasons of not pursuing the Jetstar opportunity further are,
1. I will not be actually embarking on a Jetstar cadetship. In reality I will only be entering into a PPL, CPL training contract with Oxford Aviation and thereafter an MOU (sort of) with Jetstar for the advanced/type ratings phase. Unlike the SIA cadetship, the possibility of being ‘left on your own’ for the initial few years are much higher. My first contact point (application) is with Oxford Aviation, not Jetstar. My second contact point (interview) is again with Oxford Aviation, not Jetstar. And I have to fork out a S$400 application fee. This fee is significant but not really a real burden for me. However it shaped my perception that my relationship for the next two years is with Jetstar and if any thing adverse occurs I cannot depend on Jetstar. Unlike the SIA cadet pilot program, Jetstar had not invested directly in me and have a stake in my training and future career progression.
2. Phase I PPL/CPL (AUD 80,000 training loan with bank + AUD20,000 meals and expenses) + Phase II (AUD60,000 training after deducting Jetstar partial sponsorship/bond + AUD20,000 meals and expenses) will put me in debt by almost AUD200,000 (including interest and other misc expenses). This amount excludes the AUD100,000 ++ for two years opportunity cost of quitting my current job.
3. I am planning to get married and start a family soon. Hence another ‘con’ on my cost-benefit analysis. I also tried reasoning from another perspective, if I am 7 years younger, will my decision be any different? I reckon that I will be less risk-averse but may not have the financial capability to pay for the out-of-pocket expenses (of almost AUD50,000). Hence I will still be able to take the Jetstar route.
4. For the flying aspect, I do have some doubts of my ability to fly the Airbus safely as a low hour direct intake pilot. i.e. in the worst case scenario of an emergency and with the Captain incapacitated or overwhelmed, can I still land the plane? I am doubtful that my few hours in the simulator during type training will be fully compensate for my lack of experience.
http://news.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne...22-217882.html, http://www.relax.com.sg/relax/news/5...et_plunge.html
5. I recognize that fact the Jetstar is a budget airline and there is always and strong pressure for cost cutting. There’s also many similar views reported publicly and discretely by the Australian pilots at Jetstar. Will my compensation package get cut further, especially if Jetstar expands their recruitment in India or other ASEAN countries? This is a very likely possibility. Although I am prepared to be treated as a ‘commodity’, but have to face such reality 10-20 years later is another matter.
6. Will I enjoy flying or continue to enjoy flying even after I manage to join Jetstar two years later as a SO? I will be $200,000 in debt, on frequent standby, on a much reduced paycheck (compared to my current job), and not have time for anything else, at least for the initial few years until I am promoted to SFO. I will be 40 then. There after I will be fearing of either a furlough, a tail strike or developing an adverse medical condition. Either which will be a real possibility and may probably end a career. I have ageing parents depending on me, and I can risk this possibility.
7. At my 40s in my current job, financially, I will not be as well off as a Jetstar Captain with a full time wife/housewife at home but with the combined salary of my spouse, will still be pretty comfortable. Besides a dual, near mathching income diversify risks and lowers the income tax payable. The downside is I will have to fork out a fortune of a family holiday overseas annually. However I can always do without or downgrade such expectations anytime.
8. It is not the Jetstar program is bad. In fact it is a few notches better than the self-sponsored CPL-FI-hours building-CV sending to all airlines route. There’s a target, there’ structure, there’s a certain level of predictability and there’s assistance to help an aspiring pilot to get loans and some sponsorship. But unfortunately it’s just not sufficient enough for some people like me.
Will I still dream of flying as a career henceforth? I don’t think so. I am sad but have no regrets as I have tried hard to achieve my dream. Personally and retrospectively I could have tried even harder but I have other commitments and the sacrifices in attaining the dream is not for me to alone to bear. Especially for my age and circumstances.
Yup, I am still feeling sad. Hence this thread sharing.
For those of you who are still in the game, Good Luck.
Over the last 7 years, I am an avid follower of this and other aviation forums. I also watched many flying related news (e.g. stalling/diving training clips on youtube, aircrash investigation on cable tv, salary comparison webpages, etc). I have an engineering degree, am physically fit and have near perfect eyesight. I have applied for but failed to clear the first stage of SIA pilot cadet program thrice between 2005 – 2007. I signed up for PPL training in Malaysia in 2007 and my AME speculated that my disclosure of childhood asthma had put me at a steep disadvantage for the SIA cadetship. However the AME felt that my childhood asthma should not affect my flying and cleared me for Class 2.
My brief foray into self-sponsored PPL training (I did not complete the training) made me realize that flying requires intense concentration but is not that difficult (I have advanced boat, kayak, car and diving licenses). However even completing the basic PPL training on self-sponsorship is both very expensive and time consuming. For the latter, I had experienced making a four hour round trip headache-inducing bus journey to the airport (across the border), waiting two hours for the rain to stop, before my allotted slot expires, and ended up wasting an entire day without even getting close to the Piper. Self-sponsored PPL training usually provides you with the minimal and cannot be compared to the breadth, depth, focus and experience of the instructors at full time cadetship.
Very recently an opening for Jetstar ‘Cadetship’ opened up. I applied and was selected for an interview at a local hotel in Singapore this Friday. After careful research and consideration, I declined to attend the interview. I had in fact taken 2 days of annual leave from work to come to this decision. The decision was not an easy one to make. Although it had no real adverse impact on my life, it signaled the end of my pursuit for my dream career.
My reasons of not pursuing the Jetstar opportunity further are,
1. I will not be actually embarking on a Jetstar cadetship. In reality I will only be entering into a PPL, CPL training contract with Oxford Aviation and thereafter an MOU (sort of) with Jetstar for the advanced/type ratings phase. Unlike the SIA cadetship, the possibility of being ‘left on your own’ for the initial few years are much higher. My first contact point (application) is with Oxford Aviation, not Jetstar. My second contact point (interview) is again with Oxford Aviation, not Jetstar. And I have to fork out a S$400 application fee. This fee is significant but not really a real burden for me. However it shaped my perception that my relationship for the next two years is with Jetstar and if any thing adverse occurs I cannot depend on Jetstar. Unlike the SIA cadet pilot program, Jetstar had not invested directly in me and have a stake in my training and future career progression.
2. Phase I PPL/CPL (AUD 80,000 training loan with bank + AUD20,000 meals and expenses) + Phase II (AUD60,000 training after deducting Jetstar partial sponsorship/bond + AUD20,000 meals and expenses) will put me in debt by almost AUD200,000 (including interest and other misc expenses). This amount excludes the AUD100,000 ++ for two years opportunity cost of quitting my current job.
3. I am planning to get married and start a family soon. Hence another ‘con’ on my cost-benefit analysis. I also tried reasoning from another perspective, if I am 7 years younger, will my decision be any different? I reckon that I will be less risk-averse but may not have the financial capability to pay for the out-of-pocket expenses (of almost AUD50,000). Hence I will still be able to take the Jetstar route.
4. For the flying aspect, I do have some doubts of my ability to fly the Airbus safely as a low hour direct intake pilot. i.e. in the worst case scenario of an emergency and with the Captain incapacitated or overwhelmed, can I still land the plane? I am doubtful that my few hours in the simulator during type training will be fully compensate for my lack of experience.
http://news.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne...22-217882.html, http://www.relax.com.sg/relax/news/5...et_plunge.html
5. I recognize that fact the Jetstar is a budget airline and there is always and strong pressure for cost cutting. There’s also many similar views reported publicly and discretely by the Australian pilots at Jetstar. Will my compensation package get cut further, especially if Jetstar expands their recruitment in India or other ASEAN countries? This is a very likely possibility. Although I am prepared to be treated as a ‘commodity’, but have to face such reality 10-20 years later is another matter.
6. Will I enjoy flying or continue to enjoy flying even after I manage to join Jetstar two years later as a SO? I will be $200,000 in debt, on frequent standby, on a much reduced paycheck (compared to my current job), and not have time for anything else, at least for the initial few years until I am promoted to SFO. I will be 40 then. There after I will be fearing of either a furlough, a tail strike or developing an adverse medical condition. Either which will be a real possibility and may probably end a career. I have ageing parents depending on me, and I can risk this possibility.
7. At my 40s in my current job, financially, I will not be as well off as a Jetstar Captain with a full time wife/housewife at home but with the combined salary of my spouse, will still be pretty comfortable. Besides a dual, near mathching income diversify risks and lowers the income tax payable. The downside is I will have to fork out a fortune of a family holiday overseas annually. However I can always do without or downgrade such expectations anytime.
8. It is not the Jetstar program is bad. In fact it is a few notches better than the self-sponsored CPL-FI-hours building-CV sending to all airlines route. There’s a target, there’ structure, there’s a certain level of predictability and there’s assistance to help an aspiring pilot to get loans and some sponsorship. But unfortunately it’s just not sufficient enough for some people like me.
Will I still dream of flying as a career henceforth? I don’t think so. I am sad but have no regrets as I have tried hard to achieve my dream. Personally and retrospectively I could have tried even harder but I have other commitments and the sacrifices in attaining the dream is not for me to alone to bear. Especially for my age and circumstances.
Yup, I am still feeling sad. Hence this thread sharing.
For those of you who are still in the game, Good Luck.
Join Date: Dec 2010
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if you want my advice, go for it, but never use one dollar from your pocket.
they want you?, fine. but they have to pay!
I know guys who never paid anything in their training and they are still flying.
if someone ask me money to fly, I run away. pay me, or nothing! if you want a sucker, get a sucker,...
If you want be a good pilot, you should know how to say "show me the money".
they want you?, fine. but they have to pay!
I know guys who never paid anything in their training and they are still flying.
if someone ask me money to fly, I run away. pay me, or nothing! if you want a sucker, get a sucker,...
If you want be a good pilot, you should know how to say "show me the money".
Join Date: Nov 2010
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I don't think it has anything to do with whether he thinks he's a good pilot or not.
The fact is, if a company is taking on pilots who pay to fly for them, once that pilot has done their stint, got their rating, or whatever was agreed to, they will drop them and take on the next customer.
If you are paying to fly for a company, you are a customer, not an employee.
Some hiring companies will recognize that you were a customer, and not an employee and therefore discount the hours you accumulated. Some will not.
But the point is, you are not guaranteed a job after having paid an outrageous amount of money to travel around to places you don't really want to go, and get a rating that won't be worth much, becuase if it's not current, and you don't have several thousand hours, in todays market, you won't be able to just move to the next company as an EMPLOYEE.
Think about it folks, if a company pays their F/O USD 20,000 per year, and then decides to take on "customers" who will pay USD 20,000 to be a F/O, they immediately turn a profit of USD 40 K. And if they were to hire you at the end of the year, they'd all of a sudden show a loss of USD 40 K.
Multiply that by several hundred F/Os and it's millions of dollars a year.
There's no way a company that has you pay to fly will hire you.
So before you do that, you have to make sure there's a market for people with a rating and 800 hours more than you have right now - that's because in a year you'll build about 800 hours.
so if you've got 250 hours, and the minimums at the regional are 1500 hours, you're not going to have the minimums after having paid to fly, so you'll STILL be out of work at the end of the year, and by the time you get the 1500 hours, your rating will not be current, so it will be close to useless.
You need to do like people have had to do for centuries in every job there's ever been (with some minor exceptions, this IS the rule). You start at the bottom, and work your way up.
In an office, you start "in the mailroom", in flying you start as a CFI, or short ferry flights, or banner towing, or skydiving, or patrolling.
The fact is, if a company is taking on pilots who pay to fly for them, once that pilot has done their stint, got their rating, or whatever was agreed to, they will drop them and take on the next customer.
If you are paying to fly for a company, you are a customer, not an employee.
Some hiring companies will recognize that you were a customer, and not an employee and therefore discount the hours you accumulated. Some will not.
But the point is, you are not guaranteed a job after having paid an outrageous amount of money to travel around to places you don't really want to go, and get a rating that won't be worth much, becuase if it's not current, and you don't have several thousand hours, in todays market, you won't be able to just move to the next company as an EMPLOYEE.
Think about it folks, if a company pays their F/O USD 20,000 per year, and then decides to take on "customers" who will pay USD 20,000 to be a F/O, they immediately turn a profit of USD 40 K. And if they were to hire you at the end of the year, they'd all of a sudden show a loss of USD 40 K.
Multiply that by several hundred F/Os and it's millions of dollars a year.
There's no way a company that has you pay to fly will hire you.
So before you do that, you have to make sure there's a market for people with a rating and 800 hours more than you have right now - that's because in a year you'll build about 800 hours.
so if you've got 250 hours, and the minimums at the regional are 1500 hours, you're not going to have the minimums after having paid to fly, so you'll STILL be out of work at the end of the year, and by the time you get the 1500 hours, your rating will not be current, so it will be close to useless.
You need to do like people have had to do for centuries in every job there's ever been (with some minor exceptions, this IS the rule). You start at the bottom, and work your way up.
In an office, you start "in the mailroom", in flying you start as a CFI, or short ferry flights, or banner towing, or skydiving, or patrolling.
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I know a guy who bought 500h on 320.
he got 400h (small a/c) + 500 320= 900h total.
he finishes unemployed."apply when you have 2000h total"
this guy is good to pay 2 times 500h + 100h.
lost his money for nothing!!!
he got 400h (small a/c) + 500 320= 900h total.
he finishes unemployed."apply when you have 2000h total"
this guy is good to pay 2 times 500h + 100h.
lost his money for nothing!!!
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I know a guy who bought 500h on 320.
he got 400h (small a/c) + 500 320= 900h total.
he finishes unemployed."apply when you have 2000h total"
this guy is good to pay 2 times 500h + 100h.
lost his money for nothing!!!
he got 400h (small a/c) + 500 320= 900h total.
he finishes unemployed."apply when you have 2000h total"
this guy is good to pay 2 times 500h + 100h.
lost his money for nothing!!!
Folks, they're making money having you pay to fly for them, why would they consider hiring you and paying you to fly for them?
And other companies look at you as a high paying passenger, and discount your hours.
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Yes, it is/can be that way.
The point is that it's not the way to go.
You have to go the more traditional route, or you will be suckered.
Get the commercial, then either CFI or short ferry flights, pipeline patrol, banner towing, skydiving, then up to freight, then small charter, etc.
But there will always be the 1 in ten thousand who gets a job after having done a rating, with only 500 hours total - although it would be safe to think that he's got a connection within the airline, such as an uncle or father - who then makes everyone think it can be done.
A few years ago (2005-2008) the airlines were hurting for pilots, for numerous reasons, and they were willing to take on pilots with low time, some as low as 250 hours, whereas normally they require 3 to 5 thousand hours before they will look at you for a first officer position - that's the way it's been for the past 40 years, except for 2005-2008.
So there are several pilots who will tell you that they did a type rating, paid some outrageous amount of money, but now they're flying for XYZ airline, got on with just 500TT, and now have this and that and you should do it too. But, if they were hired between 2005 and 2008, you should discount anything they say about how easy it is to get hired.
However, if you find someone hired 2009-now or before 2005, then find out their story, and see what they did, if you can, you should follow their successful story.
Or better yet, go adopt a father or uncle at an airline.
The point is that it's not the way to go.
You have to go the more traditional route, or you will be suckered.
Get the commercial, then either CFI or short ferry flights, pipeline patrol, banner towing, skydiving, then up to freight, then small charter, etc.
But there will always be the 1 in ten thousand who gets a job after having done a rating, with only 500 hours total - although it would be safe to think that he's got a connection within the airline, such as an uncle or father - who then makes everyone think it can be done.
A few years ago (2005-2008) the airlines were hurting for pilots, for numerous reasons, and they were willing to take on pilots with low time, some as low as 250 hours, whereas normally they require 3 to 5 thousand hours before they will look at you for a first officer position - that's the way it's been for the past 40 years, except for 2005-2008.
So there are several pilots who will tell you that they did a type rating, paid some outrageous amount of money, but now they're flying for XYZ airline, got on with just 500TT, and now have this and that and you should do it too. But, if they were hired between 2005 and 2008, you should discount anything they say about how easy it is to get hired.
However, if you find someone hired 2009-now or before 2005, then find out their story, and see what they did, if you can, you should follow their successful story.
Or better yet, go adopt a father or uncle at an airline.
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ryanair,the only way?
Ok, newly minted CPL/IR plus ME, total time 330 hours, looking for a job. From what I gather the ONLY route open seems to be the Ryanair debacle. If you are accepted and can cough up the TR cash, you may get in.
SO PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, if you have gone through this process recently IS THI S HOW IT WAS? Or actually, has it turned out alright? Did you get posted to a distant outpost for 9 months and had to pay for accomodation etc? Have you been on standby for weeks on end not earning?
I am aware that I will need to eat s**t for a while, but to have no hope is pointless.
If that is the case, then surely, there has to be a way of redressing the balance.
SO PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, if you have gone through this process recently IS THI S HOW IT WAS? Or actually, has it turned out alright? Did you get posted to a distant outpost for 9 months and had to pay for accomodation etc? Have you been on standby for weeks on end not earning?
I am aware that I will need to eat s**t for a while, but to have no hope is pointless.
If that is the case, then surely, there has to be a way of redressing the balance.
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there has to be a way of redressing the balance
get a clue for once in your life of wanabe spoiled kid (I am not adressing directly at you, I am addressing generally at these poor 20-30 yo children living with mom), why an airline has to pay you when you are all willing to work for free or pay to work?.
don't have the choice? or my poor baby, do you think pay to work is the solution?
look at people in Egypt, they start to fight, down in the streets throwing rocks at each over.
Thanks God,we don't have to do that, we have just to keep our money.Keep your money, and get a proper job, and wait for a better economy.(this is what mature ADULTS do)
Last edited by captainsuperstorm; 5th Feb 2011 at 09:37.
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The whole thing is a total mess - screwed if you do, screwed if you don't...
Problem is you come out of training, and (as I totally agree you should do) hold off on forking out on a TR (just wrong on all levels and a real gamble) and get a job on civvy street until things get better. However, a few years later you are arguably so far behind the 8 ball - re: currency and experience - that the freshies coming out are going to get hired first.
I've been holding out in civvy street, earning a modest living and waiting patiently for about 3 years now. I wasn't a new starter but a converter and have >1000hrs commercial experience. My concern is am I getting too rusty to get a look-in when things do start to move (and also my age). And this is WITH keeping some flying currency (MEP/IR rating etc).
And hence you end up back at the SSTR argument...etc etc
Problem is you come out of training, and (as I totally agree you should do) hold off on forking out on a TR (just wrong on all levels and a real gamble) and get a job on civvy street until things get better. However, a few years later you are arguably so far behind the 8 ball - re: currency and experience - that the freshies coming out are going to get hired first.
I've been holding out in civvy street, earning a modest living and waiting patiently for about 3 years now. I wasn't a new starter but a converter and have >1000hrs commercial experience. My concern is am I getting too rusty to get a look-in when things do start to move (and also my age). And this is WITH keeping some flying currency (MEP/IR rating etc).
And hence you end up back at the SSTR argument...etc etc