So where are all the jobs then?
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uselss agents
there are some opportunities in some companys but the problem is from the recruiting agencies, like park , winwith , rishworth and almost all are ****** up. they are making money as broker. i decided not to use this agencies and pilots start to use their association in finding jobs.
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thanks guys, ive been offered a course at one school but im heading over to oxford in a few weeks for my assessment as it sems like a really good FTO. would you recommend it?
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Why does it seem like a good FTO?
A. Because they tell you that they are?
B. Because they are more expensive than others?
C. Because you get to wear a uniform?
D. Because they still claim that there is a global pilot shortage
Sorry to burst your bubble but be aware of the 'Kidlington Marketing Machine' TM. It really isn't the time to go blowing money on an integrated course.
A. Because they tell you that they are?
B. Because they are more expensive than others?
C. Because you get to wear a uniform?
D. Because they still claim that there is a global pilot shortage
Sorry to burst your bubble but be aware of the 'Kidlington Marketing Machine' TM. It really isn't the time to go blowing money on an integrated course.
bunnyhop, in your own words:
So you think you're having sleepless nights just thinking about the job situation, without even having committed to paying for a training course yet?
Just imagine how much worse your sleep would be if:
a) you had just committed to starting an integrated course costing some £80,000 you hope, all in, with a huge, expensive loan to cover it all hanging round your neck... or
b) you were just emerging from an integrated course having spent over £100,000, the more realistic true cost of training with everything factored in, and now realising that there are no jobs just kicking around. Then it slowly dawns on you that you might well need to invest a further £30,000 on a type rating to give yourself a better chance, and even then there are very few jobs available? And all along, the repayments on that huge loan are crippling you every month...
If the mere thought of starting training is causing you sleepless nights, then either stick with it and learn to enjoy it, or give up thoughts of starting integrated training for the moment. Either way, it is a bloody sight cheaper than having already spent / committed the money, which would undoubtedly give you much, MUCH worse sleep at night!
Im having sleepless nights about all this. ive been reading this and other threads and i am concerned to say the least.
Just imagine how much worse your sleep would be if:
a) you had just committed to starting an integrated course costing some £80,000 you hope, all in, with a huge, expensive loan to cover it all hanging round your neck... or
b) you were just emerging from an integrated course having spent over £100,000, the more realistic true cost of training with everything factored in, and now realising that there are no jobs just kicking around. Then it slowly dawns on you that you might well need to invest a further £30,000 on a type rating to give yourself a better chance, and even then there are very few jobs available? And all along, the repayments on that huge loan are crippling you every month...
If the mere thought of starting training is causing you sleepless nights, then either stick with it and learn to enjoy it, or give up thoughts of starting integrated training for the moment. Either way, it is a bloody sight cheaper than having already spent / committed the money, which would undoubtedly give you much, MUCH worse sleep at night!
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Anyone thinking about becoming a pilot should read some of the info available from BALPA. It is not easy to find a job. Even when you qualify, you are not quaranteed a job, and it may take a long time to get one.
Membership to BALPA is free to everyone until you get your first flying job, so make the most of it!...
The following is copied directly from the BALPA website and should give you some more things to think about:
https://www.balpa.org/The-Piloting-P...e-A-Pilot.aspx
A Guaranteed Job?
There are a wealth of schools in Europe which offer Airline Transport Pilots Licence (ATPL) courses, which in theory will give you the ability to apply for your first job as a pilot with an airline. However, it is very important to understand that these training organisations rely on a constant stream of trainee pilots in order to stay in business, and that there may not be a constant supply of jobs in the industry.
The Hard Sell
Despite what the schools will often tell you, there is not a shortage of pilots in the industry, nor are there signs of one occurring soon. There may, however, be a shortage of experienced pilots, those who have several thousand hours flying commercial jet aircraft. There is a stark difference between the two, and unfortunately most people who finish their flight training, even from the mainstream schools who claim to have good connections with airlines, often find themselves unable to even apply for the vast majority of jobs because they lack the experience required. This is something which the training schools will never admit to, but you will need to be prepared for.
Bridging the gap between qualifying and gaining employment is fraught with difficulties, and often requires buying expensive additional training in the hope of finding a job. You need to think very carefully before you enroll on a flight training course, and decide whether you can afford to finish the course and not find a job. Getting onto an airline sponsored scheme where a job is offered upon completion may be the safest way, but there will be fierce competition for places on such schemes.
Membership to BALPA is free to everyone until you get your first flying job, so make the most of it!...
The following is copied directly from the BALPA website and should give you some more things to think about:
https://www.balpa.org/The-Piloting-P...e-A-Pilot.aspx
A Guaranteed Job?
There are a wealth of schools in Europe which offer Airline Transport Pilots Licence (ATPL) courses, which in theory will give you the ability to apply for your first job as a pilot with an airline. However, it is very important to understand that these training organisations rely on a constant stream of trainee pilots in order to stay in business, and that there may not be a constant supply of jobs in the industry.
The Hard Sell
Despite what the schools will often tell you, there is not a shortage of pilots in the industry, nor are there signs of one occurring soon. There may, however, be a shortage of experienced pilots, those who have several thousand hours flying commercial jet aircraft. There is a stark difference between the two, and unfortunately most people who finish their flight training, even from the mainstream schools who claim to have good connections with airlines, often find themselves unable to even apply for the vast majority of jobs because they lack the experience required. This is something which the training schools will never admit to, but you will need to be prepared for.
Bridging the gap between qualifying and gaining employment is fraught with difficulties, and often requires buying expensive additional training in the hope of finding a job. You need to think very carefully before you enroll on a flight training course, and decide whether you can afford to finish the course and not find a job. Getting onto an airline sponsored scheme where a job is offered upon completion may be the safest way, but there will be fierce competition for places on such schemes.
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Bunnyhop,
I would seriously consider putting your plans on hold for the moment. Oxford will tell you that the market will be good in a year's time but as someone said earlier, this will allow the more experienced pilots and FI's (at present) to be soaked up and make the transition to the airlines. It's pretty bleak at the moment and that's not doom and gloom only the truth.
In answer to the title on your post:
'Am i mad?'
errrrm at this moment in time, yes!
I would seriously consider putting your plans on hold for the moment. Oxford will tell you that the market will be good in a year's time but as someone said earlier, this will allow the more experienced pilots and FI's (at present) to be soaked up and make the transition to the airlines. It's pretty bleak at the moment and that's not doom and gloom only the truth.
In answer to the title on your post:
'Am i mad?'
errrrm at this moment in time, yes!
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ok fellas
My bubble is now burst so you should be sorry!
All points taken on board, i will put on hold for time being. No harm in going to do the assessment in oxford anyway. i might as well. Plus i've paid for it!
I know someone flying for aer lingus atm and they also have similar things to say about the lack of fo jobs for wannabes. I live at home still and have 10,000 saved up and was gonna loan 80,000 to do the course. I just dont know what to do.
cue more sleepless nights spent pondering what to do
Ps i registered on BALPA. thanks for that one. appreciate it
My bubble is now burst so you should be sorry!
All points taken on board, i will put on hold for time being. No harm in going to do the assessment in oxford anyway. i might as well. Plus i've paid for it!
I know someone flying for aer lingus atm and they also have similar things to say about the lack of fo jobs for wannabes. I live at home still and have 10,000 saved up and was gonna loan 80,000 to do the course. I just dont know what to do.
cue more sleepless nights spent pondering what to do
Ps i registered on BALPA. thanks for that one. appreciate it
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bunnyhop,
There is a person in this forum that is called Wee Weasley Welshman, please read his posts that has been posted recently regarding jobs and other things. HE KNOWS WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT. A lot of people think he is negative,, but they don't know what he is talking about.
I have been sending mor than 70s CV's out there and not even a respond back yet. Have 3 years commercial flying experience as well.
Good luck.
There is a person in this forum that is called Wee Weasley Welshman, please read his posts that has been posted recently regarding jobs and other things. HE KNOWS WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT. A lot of people think he is negative,, but they don't know what he is talking about.
I have been sending mor than 70s CV's out there and not even a respond back yet. Have 3 years commercial flying experience as well.
Good luck.
Last edited by Anonymus6; 21st Mar 2009 at 23:30.
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Change of topic
Sorry for the change in topic, however does anyone know where Vito Carlone went? (the guy who started this thread?) Did he ever get a job? Hopefully not in aviation because he sounded like a right obnoxious little erk. However his plight did make me laugh. 6 months from qualification and he was ready to chuck in the towel because no airline was prepared to come to his rescue. People like that don't deserve jobs, no real passion for flying is ever evident. All they want is to sit in the right hand seat of a shiney airliner and have their egos caressed.
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Callsign Kilo!!
So you deserve a job more than him!!!! Because you paid for your TR with Ryan Air!!!
Sorry for the change in topic, however does anyone know where Vito Carlone went? (the guy who started this thread?) Did he ever get a job? Hopefully not in aviation because he sounded like a right obnoxious little erk.
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The rare positive post
anonymus
read through a lot of his posts. heres one for you:
You'll thank me when you're rotting in the debtors jail..
There's plenty of space here for inspirational posts that help motivate and inspire. That has always been an important function of this forum and I thank G Sxty for making it.
Just because we are entering a massive airline downturn is no reason to give up on dreams.
WWW
I have a dream (dramitic music playing in background) and WWW agrees with me! Well apart from all the other posts stating that there will be no need for pilots over the next few years.
Lads i really dont know what to do so im thinking just go for it and if i have to work two jobs and continue to live at home with mum and dad until something comes up after training is finished then so be it. I'll go anywhere to work, will fly whatever. Just the typical zombie wannabe as WWW would label me
read through a lot of his posts. heres one for you:
You'll thank me when you're rotting in the debtors jail..
There's plenty of space here for inspirational posts that help motivate and inspire. That has always been an important function of this forum and I thank G Sxty for making it.
Just because we are entering a massive airline downturn is no reason to give up on dreams.
WWW
I have a dream (dramitic music playing in background) and WWW agrees with me! Well apart from all the other posts stating that there will be no need for pilots over the next few years.
Lads i really dont know what to do so im thinking just go for it and if i have to work two jobs and continue to live at home with mum and dad until something comes up after training is finished then so be it. I'll go anywhere to work, will fly whatever. Just the typical zombie wannabe as WWW would label me
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bunnyhop,
If you have the same attitude and motivation as you describe as above, once out of flight school. I'm sure you will get a job at the end. There are jobs out there, but you have to apply like crazy and get on the phone and hunt the HR or the chief pilot down.
I'm going for an interview myself next month in South Asia. After 70 Cvs at least something come up.
If you dream about flying day and night,,,then go for it!!!
Good Luck
If you have the same attitude and motivation as you describe as above, once out of flight school. I'm sure you will get a job at the end. There are jobs out there, but you have to apply like crazy and get on the phone and hunt the HR or the chief pilot down.
I'm going for an interview myself next month in South Asia. After 70 Cvs at least something come up.
If you dream about flying day and night,,,then go for it!!!
Good Luck
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Anonymus 6
Yes I did pay for my TR with Ryanair. And no I don't deserve a job more than anyone. Absolutely none of my posts ever suggest this.
One thing that I have noticed is this industry is riddled with petulance and sour grapes. People with huge chips on their shoulders thinking someone out there owes them something i.e. that chap Vito. I was merely interested in what became of him because his attitude suggested he wasn't deserving of anything.
Yes I did pay for my TR with Ryanair. And no I don't deserve a job more than anyone. Absolutely none of my posts ever suggest this.
One thing that I have noticed is this industry is riddled with petulance and sour grapes. People with huge chips on their shoulders thinking someone out there owes them something i.e. that chap Vito. I was merely interested in what became of him because his attitude suggested he wasn't deserving of anything.
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Financed myself - as was all my training. Not all loans actually (I have a very small loan by industry standards). A lot was paid for by cashing in an investment (pre-recession thankfully). A fortunate position to be in. Without it I would not be flying today.
Your ratings and license expires over time without gaining employment. Just because you can go and live with mum and dad and live for free doesn't make it any less idiotic to acquire an expensive time-expiring flying qualification when THERE ARE NO JOBS and there WILL BE NO JOBS for several years.
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WWW
How long does the CPL, APTL and IR last for after you complete it?
I know what you are saying but how can flying schools get away with telling you there are jobs out there if that is not the case. Im no lawyer, but is it not illegal to con people into spending 90k on a license if they are going to have no way of repaying that loan due to no jobs after training?
The guy at the flying school said that an airline would have twenty pilots per aircraft as a general rule of thumb and that they get asked for about 10 pilots every two months and sometimes more. Whats your thoughts??
How long does the CPL, APTL and IR last for after you complete it?
I know what you are saying but how can flying schools get away with telling you there are jobs out there if that is not the case. Im no lawyer, but is it not illegal to con people into spending 90k on a license if they are going to have no way of repaying that loan due to no jobs after training?
The guy at the flying school said that an airline would have twenty pilots per aircraft as a general rule of thumb and that they get asked for about 10 pilots every two months and sometimes more. Whats your thoughts??
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Airlines are only looking for new pilots if:-
1. They are expanding
2. They have pilots leaving for other jobs who need replacing
3. retirement and natural wastage.
Since the average career is about 40 years, you would have to be about 3000 pilots strong do see that many retirements a year. Airlines are contracting at the moment so whilst there are as yet no mass redundancies, retirements are taking up the slack and there is little recruitment which means that moving on to greener pastures is no longer an easy option either.
I would be very surprised to see any increase in overall numbers needed until 2011/12 at the very earliest and apart form the carriers who exploit the new boys the experienced crews are going to get taken on first. The figure of 20 pilots/10 crews per aircraft is about right for a long haul operation but a low cost, charter or short haul operator would probably be closer to half that figure, depending on sector length, frequency, night stops etc.
1. They are expanding
2. They have pilots leaving for other jobs who need replacing
3. retirement and natural wastage.
Since the average career is about 40 years, you would have to be about 3000 pilots strong do see that many retirements a year. Airlines are contracting at the moment so whilst there are as yet no mass redundancies, retirements are taking up the slack and there is little recruitment which means that moving on to greener pastures is no longer an easy option either.
I would be very surprised to see any increase in overall numbers needed until 2011/12 at the very earliest and apart form the carriers who exploit the new boys the experienced crews are going to get taken on first. The figure of 20 pilots/10 crews per aircraft is about right for a long haul operation but a low cost, charter or short haul operator would probably be closer to half that figure, depending on sector length, frequency, night stops etc.
Last edited by Seat1APlease; 24th Mar 2009 at 23:01.