Global Association of Trainee Pilots: Recruiting Here!
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Global Association of Trainee Pilots: Recruiting Here!
In the face of continued exploitation of newly qualified, low hours pilots by Commercial Aircraft Operators, and resulting from the issues discussed here:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=247047
I feel it is time us wannabes united and took action to resolve the farcical situation that airline recruitment of the likes of ourselves has become.
How would you feel about forming some kind of wannabes union eg. the "Global Association of Trainee Pilots" (GATP), or perhaps get ourselves some kind of representation through BALPA (British Airline Pilots Association for the non brits out there), or other global unions, to put an end to the shameful exploitation of wannabe pilots.
The problem as it stands is that for all the pilots who quite rightly refuse to pay for type ratings and line training, there are always some who are prepared to pay into the airline's hands. By doing so, such wannabes are doing a diservice to their fellow pilots and encoraging the airlines into further exploitation. If all wannabes were to unite and as one refuse to pay for a TR, line training, etc then the airlines would have to change their tactics.
They are making millions of pounds of profit a year, enough to pay for the complete training of new pilots from scratch, yet alone type ratings.
Lets face it, the airlines NEED wannabes for the continuing sustainment and growth of their operations. We are the future of aviation, and if we unite we can make them squeal!
Could you imagine macdonalds workers paying for a "big mac rating" out of ther own pocket, no, the idea is absurd.
So why do we have the equivalent in aviaiton?
It is only the fact that working as an airline pilot is percieved to be such a "dream job" that people are desperate enough to pay for type ratings and line training. This is coupled with the fact that many trainee pilots come from backgrounds or situations where financial concerns are not as pressing as of those training to enter other industries.
An airline which expects someone who wants to work for them to not only pay 30+k for their initial training, then an extra 20k for a TR, and then to work for free, or even pay for their own line training is shamefully and unscropulously taking the piss out of someones hopes and dreams, and they know it.
As a result of the PPRUNE Convention on Aviation Employment 2007 I hereby propose the following articles for the Global Association of Trainee Pilots Constitution, which will contain standards and recommened practices for airline recruitment of newly qualified pilots:
1. No wannabe shall pay out of their own pocket for an aircraft type rating specifically required as a condtion of employment.
2. If a wannabe has previously speculatively paid for a type rating subsequently required as a specific condition of employment then the cost of that type rating shall be refunded by the employer.
3. All wannabes shall, when undertaking training specifically required as a condition of employment, (eg, TR and line training) shall be paid a reasonable wage of not less than 75% of that which they will receive upon completion of said training. Under absolutely no circumstances should any wannabe receive anything less than positive reinbursement for forming part of the flight crew on a revenue earning flight.
4. All wannabes, whilst completing training specifically required as a condition of employment,shall be paid reasonable expenses to cover the cost of accommodation, travel and food whilst away from home during such training.
5. An audit system shall be introduced to ensure that jobs are awarded fairly on a merit based, equal opportunities basis. A situation where for example the son of an airline's training captain, with 200hrs and straight out of flying school is awarded a job in preference over a current flying instructor with say 1000hrs shall be investigated and reported to the authorities, with appropriate action taken as deemed necessary.
6. Any wannabe who:
Attempts to buy their way into a job through the speculative purchase of a type rating,
Pays for a type rating out of their own poket as a condition of employment,
Works for free, or even pays to work on a revenue earning flight,
Shall be pubicly named and shamed by our organisation and any memeber of our organisation shall refuse to fly with such a person in any capacity.
The Proposed constitution of the GATP is posted here for the purpose of discussion and elaboration before its anticipated ratification and enforcement. Any wannabe who wishes to propose and ammendment or addition to the constitution should do so in this forum.
All those wishing to join the GATP, or to volunteer themseleves for a position onto the GATP council (the decision making and administrative body of the GATP) should send me a PM.
Come on people, united will stand, divided we will fall. And at the moment we are all falling, into a spiral of debt and exploitation.
The more of you that join our organisation, the more powerful it shall be, and the more we will be able to influence our own situations, and as we become captains and training captains in years to come, those of future wannabes, for the better.
Do you wannabes want to continue to be a spineless disorganised rabble or do you want to take control of your own destiny? the choice is yours.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=247047
I feel it is time us wannabes united and took action to resolve the farcical situation that airline recruitment of the likes of ourselves has become.
How would you feel about forming some kind of wannabes union eg. the "Global Association of Trainee Pilots" (GATP), or perhaps get ourselves some kind of representation through BALPA (British Airline Pilots Association for the non brits out there), or other global unions, to put an end to the shameful exploitation of wannabe pilots.
The problem as it stands is that for all the pilots who quite rightly refuse to pay for type ratings and line training, there are always some who are prepared to pay into the airline's hands. By doing so, such wannabes are doing a diservice to their fellow pilots and encoraging the airlines into further exploitation. If all wannabes were to unite and as one refuse to pay for a TR, line training, etc then the airlines would have to change their tactics.
They are making millions of pounds of profit a year, enough to pay for the complete training of new pilots from scratch, yet alone type ratings.
Lets face it, the airlines NEED wannabes for the continuing sustainment and growth of their operations. We are the future of aviation, and if we unite we can make them squeal!
Could you imagine macdonalds workers paying for a "big mac rating" out of ther own pocket, no, the idea is absurd.
So why do we have the equivalent in aviaiton?
It is only the fact that working as an airline pilot is percieved to be such a "dream job" that people are desperate enough to pay for type ratings and line training. This is coupled with the fact that many trainee pilots come from backgrounds or situations where financial concerns are not as pressing as of those training to enter other industries.
An airline which expects someone who wants to work for them to not only pay 30+k for their initial training, then an extra 20k for a TR, and then to work for free, or even pay for their own line training is shamefully and unscropulously taking the piss out of someones hopes and dreams, and they know it.
As a result of the PPRUNE Convention on Aviation Employment 2007 I hereby propose the following articles for the Global Association of Trainee Pilots Constitution, which will contain standards and recommened practices for airline recruitment of newly qualified pilots:
1. No wannabe shall pay out of their own pocket for an aircraft type rating specifically required as a condtion of employment.
2. If a wannabe has previously speculatively paid for a type rating subsequently required as a specific condition of employment then the cost of that type rating shall be refunded by the employer.
3. All wannabes shall, when undertaking training specifically required as a condition of employment, (eg, TR and line training) shall be paid a reasonable wage of not less than 75% of that which they will receive upon completion of said training. Under absolutely no circumstances should any wannabe receive anything less than positive reinbursement for forming part of the flight crew on a revenue earning flight.
4. All wannabes, whilst completing training specifically required as a condition of employment,shall be paid reasonable expenses to cover the cost of accommodation, travel and food whilst away from home during such training.
5. An audit system shall be introduced to ensure that jobs are awarded fairly on a merit based, equal opportunities basis. A situation where for example the son of an airline's training captain, with 200hrs and straight out of flying school is awarded a job in preference over a current flying instructor with say 1000hrs shall be investigated and reported to the authorities, with appropriate action taken as deemed necessary.
6. Any wannabe who:
Attempts to buy their way into a job through the speculative purchase of a type rating,
Pays for a type rating out of their own poket as a condition of employment,
Works for free, or even pays to work on a revenue earning flight,
Shall be pubicly named and shamed by our organisation and any memeber of our organisation shall refuse to fly with such a person in any capacity.
The Proposed constitution of the GATP is posted here for the purpose of discussion and elaboration before its anticipated ratification and enforcement. Any wannabe who wishes to propose and ammendment or addition to the constitution should do so in this forum.
All those wishing to join the GATP, or to volunteer themseleves for a position onto the GATP council (the decision making and administrative body of the GATP) should send me a PM.
Come on people, united will stand, divided we will fall. And at the moment we are all falling, into a spiral of debt and exploitation.
The more of you that join our organisation, the more powerful it shall be, and the more we will be able to influence our own situations, and as we become captains and training captains in years to come, those of future wannabes, for the better.
Do you wannabes want to continue to be a spineless disorganised rabble or do you want to take control of your own destiny? the choice is yours.
Last edited by Baboon Boy; 28th Jan 2007 at 23:55. Reason: Grammatical Ammendment to Proposed Constitution.
Educated Hillbilly
If only;
Afraid to say this is freemarket capitalist society; so however nice your idea is, it is idealist and unrealistic.
While I spent the last two years objecting to the idea of paying for a type rating; probably 6 or more of my colleagues have signed up for Ryanair in that time and are now years ahead of me in their flying careers. Remember for alot of us the pay cut to full time instructing in the space of one year is probably far more that than the price of a type rating.
Afraid to say this is freemarket capitalist society; so however nice your idea is, it is idealist and unrealistic.
While I spent the last two years objecting to the idea of paying for a type rating; probably 6 or more of my colleagues have signed up for Ryanair in that time and are now years ahead of me in their flying careers. Remember for alot of us the pay cut to full time instructing in the space of one year is probably far more that than the price of a type rating.
Last edited by portsharbourflyer; 29th Jan 2007 at 02:03.
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Agree with Portsharbourflyer.
Nice idea and interesting, but it has a few major flaws, the biggest one of which is that you quite rightly say "there are always some who are prepared to pay into the airline's hands." Whether you form your own mini-union or not, there will STILL always be some who will go their own way and pay for the type rating. Competition is so intense that this is just the way it is and probably will be. People already with massive debt that they need to pay off haven't got time to be around complaining about big nasty airlines making wannabes pay - they need a job to start paying off their debts ASAP. If there is a potential opening and buying a type rating will mean it's accessible, you can bet there will be people who go down that road, GATP or no GATP.
Following on from that, your point 6: "...shall be pubicly[sic - !] named and shamed by our organisation and any memeber of our organisation shall refuse to fly with such a person in any capacity." Think about it. You've just invested a fortune including buying a type rating and completed your training, which you're now about to pay off because you've got a job. Are you really going to be worried about a bunch of wannabes - who, remember, are out of work while you're IN work - posting your name on a website? I don't think so. I wouldn't be. My line of thought would stretch as far as "who's the one with the job?" I'm not saying I agree with that point of view, but I bet that's the view many would take.
And refusing to fly with them? It's just not going to happen. You're a newly-qualified FO, you turn up to your aircraft with 200 people ready to board and you find out your captain paid for his type rating 10 years back... are you just going to walk away and refuse to fly? Union or no union, I don't think you'd last very long in the job. There'd have to be all sorts of negotiations to get airlines to even think about accepting the existence of such an idea before anybody could start simply refusing to fly on that basis. You can't just draw up a constitution, march into an airline's head office and say "we're here, this is what we stand for, get used to it." They'd just laugh at you. It'd take years, and a decade down the line (assuming you now have a job) are you still going to have any interest in a wannabes' union? You'll be fine and you've got your career and life to think about plus all the other issues with the airline industry in general; by that stage, I would have thought that the future for wannabes won't be particularly high on your list of priorities.
Also, I'd like to highlight your point 5:
"An audit system shall be introduced to ensure that jobs are awarded fairly on a merit based, equal opportunities basis. A situation where for example the son of an airline's training captain, with 200hrs and straight out of flying school is awarded a job in preference over a current flying instructor with say 1000hrs shall be investigated and reported to the authorities, with appropriate action taken as deemed necessary."
Who says it's all about how many hours you have? That student, straight out of flying school - son of a training captain or not - might simply be seen as far more suitable for the job. Remember, he's more than likely gone through a fair amount of pre-selection before he started his training where as an instructor with 1000hrs who has gone modular might have had none whatsoever. The impression I get from reading PPrune daily is that the jobs market is awash with FIs with plenty of hours and current ATPL passes who are seeking that first airline job - and many will never get it because they're just not up to the job. I suppose you have a point if the 200hr wannabe in question happens to be the son of a training captain, but I get the distinct feeling that your post is more aimed at the fact that the big integrated schools are churning out new pilots who are walking straight into jobs while the modular lot are left fighting over what's left. And what happens if the "authorities", whoever they may be, investigate and find that yes, the 200hr newbie got in ahead of the 1000hr instructor on the basis that they happened to know someone there? What's this "appropriate action" you advocate? The airline being fined? A GATP mob waving banners and flagpoles outside the airline's head office proclaiming how unfair their recruitment is? At the end of the day, it's not going to make a massive difference - that 200hr guy will still have a job, and the instructor won't.
Like I said, it's a nice idea, you make some fair points and if you did manage to get some sort of affiliation with BALPA it could be interesting as to how it pans out - but reading it now it seems unrealistic. You'll never stop people buying type ratings if they want to, nor should you be allowed to - people can do what they want. And how would you find out whether they did or not?
Nice idea and interesting, but it has a few major flaws, the biggest one of which is that you quite rightly say "there are always some who are prepared to pay into the airline's hands." Whether you form your own mini-union or not, there will STILL always be some who will go their own way and pay for the type rating. Competition is so intense that this is just the way it is and probably will be. People already with massive debt that they need to pay off haven't got time to be around complaining about big nasty airlines making wannabes pay - they need a job to start paying off their debts ASAP. If there is a potential opening and buying a type rating will mean it's accessible, you can bet there will be people who go down that road, GATP or no GATP.
Following on from that, your point 6: "...shall be pubicly[sic - !] named and shamed by our organisation and any memeber of our organisation shall refuse to fly with such a person in any capacity." Think about it. You've just invested a fortune including buying a type rating and completed your training, which you're now about to pay off because you've got a job. Are you really going to be worried about a bunch of wannabes - who, remember, are out of work while you're IN work - posting your name on a website? I don't think so. I wouldn't be. My line of thought would stretch as far as "who's the one with the job?" I'm not saying I agree with that point of view, but I bet that's the view many would take.
And refusing to fly with them? It's just not going to happen. You're a newly-qualified FO, you turn up to your aircraft with 200 people ready to board and you find out your captain paid for his type rating 10 years back... are you just going to walk away and refuse to fly? Union or no union, I don't think you'd last very long in the job. There'd have to be all sorts of negotiations to get airlines to even think about accepting the existence of such an idea before anybody could start simply refusing to fly on that basis. You can't just draw up a constitution, march into an airline's head office and say "we're here, this is what we stand for, get used to it." They'd just laugh at you. It'd take years, and a decade down the line (assuming you now have a job) are you still going to have any interest in a wannabes' union? You'll be fine and you've got your career and life to think about plus all the other issues with the airline industry in general; by that stage, I would have thought that the future for wannabes won't be particularly high on your list of priorities.
Also, I'd like to highlight your point 5:
"An audit system shall be introduced to ensure that jobs are awarded fairly on a merit based, equal opportunities basis. A situation where for example the son of an airline's training captain, with 200hrs and straight out of flying school is awarded a job in preference over a current flying instructor with say 1000hrs shall be investigated and reported to the authorities, with appropriate action taken as deemed necessary."
Who says it's all about how many hours you have? That student, straight out of flying school - son of a training captain or not - might simply be seen as far more suitable for the job. Remember, he's more than likely gone through a fair amount of pre-selection before he started his training where as an instructor with 1000hrs who has gone modular might have had none whatsoever. The impression I get from reading PPrune daily is that the jobs market is awash with FIs with plenty of hours and current ATPL passes who are seeking that first airline job - and many will never get it because they're just not up to the job. I suppose you have a point if the 200hr wannabe in question happens to be the son of a training captain, but I get the distinct feeling that your post is more aimed at the fact that the big integrated schools are churning out new pilots who are walking straight into jobs while the modular lot are left fighting over what's left. And what happens if the "authorities", whoever they may be, investigate and find that yes, the 200hr newbie got in ahead of the 1000hr instructor on the basis that they happened to know someone there? What's this "appropriate action" you advocate? The airline being fined? A GATP mob waving banners and flagpoles outside the airline's head office proclaiming how unfair their recruitment is? At the end of the day, it's not going to make a massive difference - that 200hr guy will still have a job, and the instructor won't.
Like I said, it's a nice idea, you make some fair points and if you did manage to get some sort of affiliation with BALPA it could be interesting as to how it pans out - but reading it now it seems unrealistic. You'll never stop people buying type ratings if they want to, nor should you be allowed to - people can do what they want. And how would you find out whether they did or not?
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Baboon Boy forget the the detractors. You are on the right track. Some of your specific suggestions seem to me to be unlikely to be successful, but that is not the point. The point is you want to do something.
You have a better grasp of the issues than some of your detractors. The reality is that things are now looking quite pessimistic for the piloting profession. What you are suggesting is only that people have an opportunity to go to a specific forum to get informed and to understand what they are getting into. I see nothing wrong with that; in fact there is a lot right with that. (BTW, if I read you correctly, you are absolutely correct about "service providers" - some of whom prey on the uncertainties of low time pilots in order to get their "piece(£) of the action". This is likely to become an even bigger problem in the future).
If people are prepared to travel the world, without a truly permanent job, pension, etc. and work on the basis of ever lower pay so that they can fly, then so be it. It is best that those who do so do it with their eyes wide open and not with enormous debts on the basis of misleading information and downright lies.
You have a better grasp of the issues than some of your detractors. The reality is that things are now looking quite pessimistic for the piloting profession. What you are suggesting is only that people have an opportunity to go to a specific forum to get informed and to understand what they are getting into. I see nothing wrong with that; in fact there is a lot right with that. (BTW, if I read you correctly, you are absolutely correct about "service providers" - some of whom prey on the uncertainties of low time pilots in order to get their "piece(£) of the action". This is likely to become an even bigger problem in the future).
If people are prepared to travel the world, without a truly permanent job, pension, etc. and work on the basis of ever lower pay so that they can fly, then so be it. It is best that those who do so do it with their eyes wide open and not with enormous debts on the basis of misleading information and downright lies.
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Can I go on your named and shamed list!
My name is Ivor Betterchance
It's all horses for courses, and if someone wants to do something in this free society, then they should, like it or not comrade.
I'm starting a self sponsored TR soon with a strong possibility of employment at the end, which would possibly take me onto a DEP salary.
My options:
Option 1 - (Having already waited months for any interviews sent CVs left right and centre, even rung people; all negative feedback requires type ratings...funny that)
Current Job, over £40k pa
pay £22K for TR still in +£40K a year job.
Get interview and hopefully offered job for £35-45K pa flying jets with little or no bond.
Put on Mortgage adds c.£150 per month to current payments.
Option 2 -
Wait, send CV, more waiting, send more CVs wait some more and more and more...............still nothing.......oh........TP job earning £19k a year for umpteen years.
Option 3 -
Give up +£40K a year job pay £7k on getting an intructor rating,
Work as an instructor on £10-15K if you're lucky for 2 years and then possibly get interview with a regional carrier earning a £25K and bonded for 4 years on an equally crap pay. Probably looking at 5 years down the line before you actually get onto a jet.
Option 2 & 3 probably suits a young bloke.
But, ss you can see, for me option 1 is the most suitable situation at this moment so I am justified in what I do.
My name is Ivor Betterchance
It's all horses for courses, and if someone wants to do something in this free society, then they should, like it or not comrade.
I'm starting a self sponsored TR soon with a strong possibility of employment at the end, which would possibly take me onto a DEP salary.
My options:
Option 1 - (Having already waited months for any interviews sent CVs left right and centre, even rung people; all negative feedback requires type ratings...funny that)
Current Job, over £40k pa
pay £22K for TR still in +£40K a year job.
Get interview and hopefully offered job for £35-45K pa flying jets with little or no bond.
Put on Mortgage adds c.£150 per month to current payments.
Option 2 -
Wait, send CV, more waiting, send more CVs wait some more and more and more...............still nothing.......oh........TP job earning £19k a year for umpteen years.
Option 3 -
Give up +£40K a year job pay £7k on getting an intructor rating,
Work as an instructor on £10-15K if you're lucky for 2 years and then possibly get interview with a regional carrier earning a £25K and bonded for 4 years on an equally crap pay. Probably looking at 5 years down the line before you actually get onto a jet.
Option 2 & 3 probably suits a young bloke.
But, ss you can see, for me option 1 is the most suitable situation at this moment so I am justified in what I do.
Last edited by SinBin; 29th Jan 2007 at 14:28.
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Another point I'd like to make, is that airlines have so much clout, that they really don't care too much about low hours pilots with no experience and no type ratings as there is a surplus of experienced people. If they do, they'll get the money out of you somehow, be it docked wages, bonding on low pay or a SSTR, they are businesses and business ain't nice. This plan of yours won't change a thing so in order to combat it is to adjust to it. The best way is to boycott the overpriced integrated schools and accept paying for the type rating when inexperienced only. We all know that this will never happen and marketing departments at these schools are always ahead of the game in filling their courses.
How anyone can justify spending double on a blue book and do most of your training in the US (with costs as low as they are over there, I hired a C172 last year for about £45 p.hr) is beyond me and I think these people are the most exploited people of all, but that's a different argument.
My advice is do what suits you
How anyone can justify spending double on a blue book and do most of your training in the US (with costs as low as they are over there, I hired a C172 last year for about £45 p.hr) is beyond me and I think these people are the most exploited people of all, but that's a different argument.
My advice is do what suits you
Last edited by SinBin; 29th Jan 2007 at 15:40.
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BB,
As SinBin says, they'll get the money out of you one way or another!
However, saying that, my analysis is that the problem is the perceived need for speculative TRs, not SSTRs in general. Being 'forced' down the road of buying a TR in the hope of a job puts the risk squarely on the prospect and totally absolves the employer.
Should the employer interview the prospect, like what they see and offer employment conditional on references checking out and an LST pass within a reasonable timeframe and to their requirements, then that I think is fair enough. It would require a little more work and forward planning for the employer but for a much reduced and arguably reasonable level of risk for the wannabe.
However, don't get me started on the absurd concept paying for line training on revenue earning flights - Monty Python anyone!?
As SinBin says, they'll get the money out of you one way or another!
However, saying that, my analysis is that the problem is the perceived need for speculative TRs, not SSTRs in general. Being 'forced' down the road of buying a TR in the hope of a job puts the risk squarely on the prospect and totally absolves the employer.
Should the employer interview the prospect, like what they see and offer employment conditional on references checking out and an LST pass within a reasonable timeframe and to their requirements, then that I think is fair enough. It would require a little more work and forward planning for the employer but for a much reduced and arguably reasonable level of risk for the wannabe.
However, don't get me started on the absurd concept paying for line training on revenue earning flights - Monty Python anyone!?
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It all sounds nice but, unless GATP will have strong agreements with associations such as BALPA, or some other well-looked-at organisation, then...
1) I have a feeling the airlines or whoever needs to employ pilots, won't take any notice of GATP (for many reasons...), and
2) I'm afraid everyone outside GATP will refer to people in the GATP as the "poor guys" who are in debt, waiting for their luck to come one day... and thus, GATP could get such an impression
1) I have a feeling the airlines or whoever needs to employ pilots, won't take any notice of GATP (for many reasons...), and
2) I'm afraid everyone outside GATP will refer to people in the GATP as the "poor guys" who are in debt, waiting for their luck to come one day... and thus, GATP could get such an impression
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Mr Sinbin
Sorry but it gets my back up !!!
I guess you should be treated with a bit more respect. But you really don't understand. How long have you been applying for jobs and what is your experience level?
Do you think your the only one that has had to work and study at the same time. I'm sure you did work hard while doing that. But wouldn't you have been upset if you had to apply to gain entry to a flight school....but you couldn't get a place because the course had been sold to the highest bidder. If you couldn't even train to be a Pilot because the price was so high.
When you go out and get a type rating you are setting the bench mark. The minimum qualifications that the industry will expect every Pilot to have is ATPL(frozen)IR/Multi/MCC/JOC/Type rated
This is what I believe has happened and its because of people like yourself that say you don't care about the next person.
If you keep paying the only thing that you can guarentee is that being a Pilot becomes a career that only the wealthy can achieve.
I guess you should be treated with a bit more respect. But you really don't understand. How long have you been applying for jobs and what is your experience level?
Do you think your the only one that has had to work and study at the same time. I'm sure you did work hard while doing that. But wouldn't you have been upset if you had to apply to gain entry to a flight school....but you couldn't get a place because the course had been sold to the highest bidder. If you couldn't even train to be a Pilot because the price was so high.
When you go out and get a type rating you are setting the bench mark. The minimum qualifications that the industry will expect every Pilot to have is ATPL(frozen)IR/Multi/MCC/JOC/Type rated
This is what I believe has happened and its because of people like yourself that say you don't care about the next person.
If you keep paying the only thing that you can guarentee is that being a Pilot becomes a career that only the wealthy can achieve.
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Apology accepted, you have to know though, that it ain't my fault, and I'm far from rich. I live in a 2 bedroom house! I care about many things, and unfortunately my well-being and my wife's well-being is the most important. You guys, as much as I love you
, don't pay my bills. So I'm afraid that's life, it's kill or be killed.
Good luck to you all, I do not do this lightly and I'm not pleased with having to find more money, there is only a finite amount of time a guy can wait for not even a reply.
, don't pay my bills. So I'm afraid that's life, it's kill or be killed. Good luck to you all, I do not do this lightly and I'm not pleased with having to find more money, there is only a finite amount of time a guy can wait for not even a reply.
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Sorry - nice idea, but we're not communists.
All very true, but disgregards the fact that it is someone else's money that is invested in the capital of the company, which requires a profitable return for them to continue to invest in the company. With even BA earning less than a 10% operating margin, the investors are getting little for their money compared to putting it instead in other industries or even in other markets.
Eating into this to an extent that is unreasonable means the whole operation may be returning less than the investors require, and make holding their money as cash more appropriate.
The fact that a profit exists does not make it available for use by stakeholders other than the shareholders.
The fact that the job market operates the way it does is symtomatic of what people are prepared to do. Without you being a dictator and taking over the job market, and indeed all other power in the country, you will never be able to impose the model you propose on people who have freedom of action to do as they will...and if you impose it upon them, they will revolt.
Bottom line is - too many people want it, and even after massive growth in the industry, there are insufficient spaces for all.
The only simple answer is to impose selection based upon potential and innate ability prior to starting flying training. Sod the idea of the 1000hr flying instructor deserving a place first in the line - in a large number of cases, there is a very, very good reason why the airline will NOT hire some of these individuals!
They are making millions of pounds of profit a year, enough to pay for the complete training of new pilots from scratch, yet alone type ratings.
Eating into this to an extent that is unreasonable means the whole operation may be returning less than the investors require, and make holding their money as cash more appropriate.
The fact that a profit exists does not make it available for use by stakeholders other than the shareholders.
The fact that the job market operates the way it does is symtomatic of what people are prepared to do. Without you being a dictator and taking over the job market, and indeed all other power in the country, you will never be able to impose the model you propose on people who have freedom of action to do as they will...and if you impose it upon them, they will revolt.
Bottom line is - too many people want it, and even after massive growth in the industry, there are insufficient spaces for all.
The only simple answer is to impose selection based upon potential and innate ability prior to starting flying training. Sod the idea of the 1000hr flying instructor deserving a place first in the line - in a large number of cases, there is a very, very good reason why the airline will NOT hire some of these individuals!
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May I first say that some of you have I think taken my post way too seriously, esp the Constitution. Of course some of the demands are in practice probably un-attainable in their present form, but the key to any negotiations are to demand more than what you need, so that you can give some ground to end up with what you actually need.
I am however to be honest angry and disappointed by the responses my idea has received. Rather than embrace and offer support to my proposals, which anyone can see are for the long term greater good of the flying profession, the majority of the responses seem to cast scorn upon them in a kind of smug, self gratifying way. You are all children of Thatcher's Britain!
Sin Bin, it is exactly people like you, with their desire to get ahead of other wannabes, which ruin the airline recruitment game.
You say that you first tried to get a job without a TR, but all the airlines you rang required one. Why was that?
Because they have enough mugs such as yourselves are prepared to pay for one, thats why. You then yourself add to the problem by doing the same! You are in my opinion a disgrace to your profession for allowing yourself to be taken for a ride so badly, and if your true identity ever be known the GAPT shall ensure that you fall foul of article 6 of the constitution! You may feel very pleased with yourself that you are about to jump the queue and buy yourself a job, but when you are ostricised from your profession, well we'll see.
At the end of the day I would like to say:
- The aims of the GATP will, if sucessful, be of great benefit to the aviation industry as a whole, and that includes ALL wannabes reading this forum.
- The GATP will, if it has enough support, be able to make lasting changes. If enough people join then the airlines will have to scrap their type rating requirements as there will simply not be enough people with TRs, for them to employ. The GATP will, once it has a certain amount of members, snowball in size, once it has enough members to begin to influence airline recruitment.
-GATP recruitment will, if carried out at a grass roots level (FTOs, ATPL ground schools, etc) before people become tempted to buy a TR, be sucessful in gaining enough support to make a difference.
-Affiliation with BALPA will I think be key to the GATPs sucess. Support from established airline pilots for our cause will add great weight to our organisation. I have had discussions via the phone a BALPA representative this afternoon who at this stage have agreed in principle with the need for some kind of action.
-May I also add that, since its conception last night, the GATP can now count 11 frozen ATPL holders as members, and will in the very near future I think be moving forward to become a formal organisation.
THE GATP NEEDS YOU TO PLAY YOUR PART IN CHANGING AIRLINE RECRUITMENT FOR THE BETTER. SHOW YOUR SUPPORT NOW!
I am however to be honest angry and disappointed by the responses my idea has received. Rather than embrace and offer support to my proposals, which anyone can see are for the long term greater good of the flying profession, the majority of the responses seem to cast scorn upon them in a kind of smug, self gratifying way. You are all children of Thatcher's Britain!
Sin Bin, it is exactly people like you, with their desire to get ahead of other wannabes, which ruin the airline recruitment game.
You say that you first tried to get a job without a TR, but all the airlines you rang required one. Why was that?
Because they have enough mugs such as yourselves are prepared to pay for one, thats why. You then yourself add to the problem by doing the same! You are in my opinion a disgrace to your profession for allowing yourself to be taken for a ride so badly, and if your true identity ever be known the GAPT shall ensure that you fall foul of article 6 of the constitution! You may feel very pleased with yourself that you are about to jump the queue and buy yourself a job, but when you are ostricised from your profession, well we'll see.
At the end of the day I would like to say:
- The aims of the GATP will, if sucessful, be of great benefit to the aviation industry as a whole, and that includes ALL wannabes reading this forum.
- The GATP will, if it has enough support, be able to make lasting changes. If enough people join then the airlines will have to scrap their type rating requirements as there will simply not be enough people with TRs, for them to employ. The GATP will, once it has a certain amount of members, snowball in size, once it has enough members to begin to influence airline recruitment.
-GATP recruitment will, if carried out at a grass roots level (FTOs, ATPL ground schools, etc) before people become tempted to buy a TR, be sucessful in gaining enough support to make a difference.
-Affiliation with BALPA will I think be key to the GATPs sucess. Support from established airline pilots for our cause will add great weight to our organisation. I have had discussions via the phone a BALPA representative this afternoon who at this stage have agreed in principle with the need for some kind of action.
-May I also add that, since its conception last night, the GATP can now count 11 frozen ATPL holders as members, and will in the very near future I think be moving forward to become a formal organisation.
THE GATP NEEDS YOU TO PLAY YOUR PART IN CHANGING AIRLINE RECRUITMENT FOR THE BETTER. SHOW YOUR SUPPORT NOW!
Last edited by Baboon Boy; 29th Jan 2007 at 16:51. Reason: wanted to add more.
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would i buy a type rating if it guaranteed me a job to pay of my debts? Too right i would.
I agree, its nonsense that I'd have to do it. I don't like that I'd have to do it, but if it guaranteed me a job, and a foot on the ladder, I'd jump at it.
its a nice idea what you are trying to do i wish above all that any competent pilot could get jobs easily, but its not like that. The airlines have so many wannabes to chose from you've got to be willing to go further. Its our own faults really, that first person who said "Sure i'll pay for my own TR" sure did screw it for the rest of us, but now there is nothing we can do. If it is the only way you can get the job you've got to do it. Principles are great, but lets face it, they don't pay the bills. Jobs do.
As for your other points hours on their own don't make the pilot. The person with the hours does. That FI with 1000 hours may not have what it takes at the airline in question, the 200 hour training captains child may be perfect. Personality matters.
I wish this could make a difference, but it wont. we're wannabes with <1000 hours, why would airlines care what we think? With most airlines we need their jobs more than they need us.
i want you to answer honestly:
you've been qualified for a year still on 350 hours, your in debt up to your ears and an airline comes to you and says " we like you, buy 'x' rating and you have a job" now this job will give you enough money each month to pay off the debts you've accrued. do you swallow your pride and principles and take it? or risk losing everything?
We'd all like to pretend its the latter, that principles are worth more, but the banks won't care, they just want your money.
*Edited to add more*
I agree, its nonsense that I'd have to do it. I don't like that I'd have to do it, but if it guaranteed me a job, and a foot on the ladder, I'd jump at it.
its a nice idea what you are trying to do i wish above all that any competent pilot could get jobs easily, but its not like that. The airlines have so many wannabes to chose from you've got to be willing to go further. Its our own faults really, that first person who said "Sure i'll pay for my own TR" sure did screw it for the rest of us, but now there is nothing we can do. If it is the only way you can get the job you've got to do it. Principles are great, but lets face it, they don't pay the bills. Jobs do.
As for your other points hours on their own don't make the pilot. The person with the hours does. That FI with 1000 hours may not have what it takes at the airline in question, the 200 hour training captains child may be perfect. Personality matters.
I wish this could make a difference, but it wont. we're wannabes with <1000 hours, why would airlines care what we think? With most airlines we need their jobs more than they need us.
i want you to answer honestly:
you've been qualified for a year still on 350 hours, your in debt up to your ears and an airline comes to you and says " we like you, buy 'x' rating and you have a job" now this job will give you enough money each month to pay off the debts you've accrued. do you swallow your pride and principles and take it? or risk losing everything?
We'd all like to pretend its the latter, that principles are worth more, but the banks won't care, they just want your money.
*Edited to add more*
Last edited by SingSong; 29th Jan 2007 at 16:44.
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The statement about the hours was meant as an example of a potential case of discrimitation, to illustrate my point. Of course there are some flying instructors who would be less suitable with 1000hrs than a fresh 200hrs bod, but one might equally catch a whiff of discrimination and favouritism, thats all. If such a situatuionm were investigated, as proposed in article 5, then the real truth would indeed be found.
Bjkeats- "pubicly named and shamed". Ha! nice type error. Would work though, shave their pubic hair off, that'll teach em!
Bjkeats- "pubicly named and shamed". Ha! nice type error. Would work though, shave their pubic hair off, that'll teach em!
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The statement about the hours was meant as an example of a potential case of discrimitation, to illustrate my point. Of course there are some flying instructors who would be less suitable with 1000hrs than a fresh 200hrs bod, but one might equally catch a whiff of discrimination and favouritism, thats all. If such a situatuionm were investigated, as proposed in article 5, then the real truth would indeed be found.
Bjkeats- "pubicly named and shamed". Ha! nice type error. Would work though, shave their pubic hair off, that'll teach em!
Bjkeats- "pubicly named and shamed". Ha! nice type error. Would work though, shave their pubic hair off, that'll teach em!
ok lets assume it was favoritism, what do we do once we've found it out? Force them to take the FI and fire the 200hour kid? force them to take both? shame them publicly for nepotism? what would all this achieve?
i like you wish noone would pay for TR and that airlines would pay their way, or at least pay us back after 2 years on the line. but without the support of EVERY wannabe i can't see this organisation ever working
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The GATP does not need the support of every wannabe. Only a sufficient number to ensure that there is an insufficient number of wannabes prepared to pay for a type rating to fill their jobs. Once this occurs, they will be faced with two choices.
- cut back their operations due to a shortage of first officers, or-
- take on new pilots without forcing them to pay for a TR.
- cut back their operations due to a shortage of first officers, or-
- take on new pilots without forcing them to pay for a TR.
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Yes, but you've missed the point - it is not forcing if the market requires it, as there are too many desparate people who do so.
I also think, though admirably intentioned, BALPA will be of little help. Why? - you may ask?
Well, BALPA wants to raise the benefits for its workers. The best way in which to do that is to restrict supply of new pilots to the market by making it as hard as possible. Of course, they cannot overtly do so, as it would alienate their future members, if they made it to the flightdeck, but the fundamental point of a union is that it raises employment benefits, which is at the expense of employement numbers.
Ho hum.
I also think, though admirably intentioned, BALPA will be of little help. Why? - you may ask?
Well, BALPA wants to raise the benefits for its workers. The best way in which to do that is to restrict supply of new pilots to the market by making it as hard as possible. Of course, they cannot overtly do so, as it would alienate their future members, if they made it to the flightdeck, but the fundamental point of a union is that it raises employment benefits, which is at the expense of employement numbers.
Ho hum.
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The statement about the hours was meant as an example of a potential case of discrimitation, to illustrate my point. Of course there are some flying instructors who would be less suitable with 1000hrs than a fresh 200hrs bod, but one might equally catch a whiff of discrimination and favouritism, thats all. If such a situatuionm were investigated, as proposed in article 5, then the real truth would indeed be found.
It was common knowledge that kids of BA staff stood a lesser chance of getting into the airline than others. Whether this was due to the type of characters attracted to the job, who had thought little about what they were really suited for, is besides the point. BA was utterly scrupulous to the point of denying a cadetship to a son of a friend of Lord King in one famous example.