redsnail

No airline (or training organisation) pays rack rate on hotel accommodation.

Eg, the room I am in right now, 4* over looking the beach at a well known Cote d'Azur destination is a minimum of €225 without breakfast or gym thrown in. There is no way the company I work for pays that.

davedek

Beak, you completely missed the point I was making. My point was - if trainees got type ratings for nothing, where else could that happen?

I was arguing Day Dreamer's point that it would be better off to train at FTE or OAA in the future - THEY have their own simulators, THEY have their own instructors etc. etc. (the points you made), but they aren't giving their trainees type ratings for free are they?

I'm not saying CTC are rolling in hills of money, or that they're remotely perfect. I just wanted to make the point that it's silly to say they are doing worse off than other FTOs without any evidence.

TheBeak

We just established they didn't get them for nothing Dave, I didn't miss the point. You are just dancing around it and sound like you have been spun a yarn. Have some intelligence, that is, the ability to understand. You aren't understanding the situation.

No neither are CTC are they? Anyone who is in the holdpool has paid for their training and earned their right to be there - and earned there right to a TR like they were promised. CTC are not giving anyone anything. They are lucky to have the people, not the other way around. Learn it. CTC do not pay a penny towards your TR or your future, they make money.

Dave perhaps you can answer this one for me. Why don't CTC offer their trainees, complete with TR for free to the airlines but with the same pay and benefits to the trainees? I am sure the airlines would take more of them. I'll tell you why. Because that would devalue their product for the future. Yet it seems perfectly acceptable for pilots to do it. We have outgoings too you know.

Now with regards to choosing OAA or FTE over CTC. OAA are financially tougher and I can see them gaining these 'partner airlines' from the likes of CTC. They are bigger and have more resources. They will no doubt be able to offer the airlines economies of scale - take Jet2 for instance. And as for FTE, I have rarely met anyone......no I have never met anyone disatisfied with the service they received from the organisation. These people will go on to become captains and recruiters in the future. Where do you think they'll take their business? I hear nothing but whinging and bitching about Cabair and people don't seem over the moon about CTC on here do they? So where are you going to invest your £80K investment that is secured against your parents home? As I have said, I wouldn't choose any of them. And certainly not now.

Stop believing the hype. Now I see why companies spend so much on sales and marketing. I need to get myself in to selling the dream to people.


'Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive'

davedek

Quote: "So where are you going to invest your £80K investment that is secured against your parents home?" Assuming that's aimed at me (rather than a general statement to all readers) you must have assumed I'm a fresh-faced wannabe about to start out on a course with CTC and so trying to defend them. I'm not about to start training anywhere. That seems like a long time ago now!

Here's my last post on the subject - you mention "their right to a TR like they were promised", this is the point I'm making, everyone must remember that cadets are NOT promised a type rating, let alone a job! Obviously it is heavily implied that you will, but technically it is just training to get an fATPL, and there are no guarantees, and any trainees MUST remember this (I'm sure you will agree).

On this note, if one compares the big integrated FTOs directly, the only thing each trainee from ANY school is guaranteed to come out with is a CPL/IR and 200-and-something hours. My point is: of all the trainees currently graduating these schools and NOT getting jobs right now due to the current climate - the CTC cadets seem to have got the best value for their money e.g.

1. No accomodation charges at any point in the course
2. Getting a MCC/JOC course (I must admit I dont know if OAA/FTE get this as part of the initial course costs, do they?)
3. Some are even getting a type rating, before going to an airline, at no extra cost to themselves! (which, as I've said, technically is a bonus since it was never PROMISED). Those who haven't yet, will. (Unless CTC change their current policies, no sign of that for the time being). Surely this is better than other trainees from most schools who have to either pay for a rating or try to get a job without one?
4. Reasonable prospects of some kind of employment (even if it is flexicrew, but lets not start on that, better than NOTHING right?)

So, seeing as everybody coming out of an integrated school right now is struggling, would you agree that the CTC cadets have the best prospects?

Bambe

Yes if you compare what you pay for and what you get, CTC is from far the best option available in the industry in term of integrated training . The only thing that is not included is your living expenses and petrol for cars in NZ (around 30 pounds a month...). And as you mentionned, job prospect is far better as you are not completely by yourself after graduation.... Ok for all that.

But what these gentlemen try to explain, it's just that CTC is no longer the 18 months course leading straight to an airline job. As I red somewhere on this thread, some guys from CP 48 are still waiting for permanent job... And CP 77 just arrived!
I would strongly advise anyone interested in this (very good) program to wait at least until next spring just to see what happens in term of job placement.. We have a catch up meeting tomorrow with CTC NZ Head of training, let's see what he will tell us.

EZYramper

Nothing of interest, guaranteed!

air_wolf

Try CP38.

Did any easyjet guys after this course get a permanent contract?

jb5000

CP39 have, as well as CP40, CP41 and perhaps CP42.

Fin.

d41xcs

According to some people on this forum, i think i should find some quick (and cheap) way of killing myself, because clearly the world is coming to an end, and all hope is lost.....

in actual fact, this thread is making me feel only one emotion - BORED!!!!

TheBeak

Then please don't come on here and contribute the tripe that you just have. Do us a favour and do yourself a favour.

Still think things are all good do you? Yeah, you know better than Thomsonfly captains, Easyjet captains and FOs, NetJet pilots, Ex SkyEurope pilots, Thomas Cook pilots and Ex Excel pilots don't you? Of course you do. You crazy fool. You are headed for a nasty shock - you are past the PNR no doubt. Don't try and convince yourself it's going to be pleasant at the destination.

You may be balls deep in this mess but others don't need to be. They can save themselves and come back when the industry is a little better or not at all if they have some sense.

bigjarv

Still spreading the love on here then Mr Beak!!

Rollerboy

Hey come on bigjarv that's a little harsh on TheBeak even if in jest. What TheBeak and others on this thread are doing is offering a viewpiont to counter the seemingly endless rubbish that pours out of Dibden Manor.

It never ceases to amaze me how many cadets and wannabees think they have a complete handle on the industry they want to work in. What many of their posts on here show, is either a lack of understanding, a viewpoint expressed by others who like to market their product and a sadly naive response to the predicament they are in.

That is not to say I blame any of the cadets or wannabees on this or any other thread far from it I, like TheBeak and many others want these people to see the reality of the current situation. The current situation is very very difficult however it will pick up the question is when.

You have to ask yourself why are CTC and other FTOs still running courses when they know many of there cadets and students may never get that elusive first job. The answer is, they like all other business at the moment need cash flow and the only way to guarantee this at present is not the banks it's paying customers. That means they need you guys to remain in business and at the moment I would guess they need a large proportion of you guys who will eventually fill the 'hold oceans' of the future.

What if CTC closed up shop now? Are the cadets protected? Will they get any money back? Will the directors sell off all the assets and run? Could the training organisation be sold to another company who themselves will not honour the present commitments? These are questions you should ask yourselves whenever or wherever you start training.

My advice sit tight and wait, the industry will still be there in a year or two, however the FTO may not be.

Roller

d41xcs

Those who know how bad the situation is (and as we know, it's awful) don't come to PPrune to get their information. Those who don't know, do, and as a result get a multitude of good and bad advice from sources that can never be verified. PPrune is great for certain degrees of information, but it's pretty appalling if people are basing career decisions of what they read off here (because some people, sadly, believe everything they read). My BORED comment refers to the fact that this is no longer about CTC, its about why you're a stupid T%@t to be considering training at the moment. That may be true, but it has nothing to do with the CTC course or CTC selection. BORED!!

bigjarv

I'm afraid I agree with the man whose name is a strange combination of letters and numbers! There is no disputing that the industry is in one hell of a tough place right now and aviation directly represents the state of the economy and so as soon as you see the economy improve you will see the industry follow and will it ever recover to where it was before etc etc etc. All very valid stuff.

This post however is all about finding advice on the CTC interview and selection process for those that have taken the time to research the industry and made the "bold" decision to continue with CTC. So what these guys need or want is some good advice on how to pass the interview process, not pages and pages bickering about what decisions they should or shouldn't be making.

If you guys want to spread the realities of what is going on in the industry and offer helpful advice then you most certainly should but start your own thread. Don't hijack this one and ruin what was a very informative and helpful post for those going through CTC's selection. Make your point on here but don't take it over. If you look over the last 50 pages it is just repetition mostly from "The Bloody Beak" (!) bashing anyone who had decided to continue with the process and pointing out how rubbish the industry is.

I only come on here every now and again to see if I can offer any advice I think is prudent and try and put something back now I'm employed, but every time I return to this post, it's never about CTC or interviews but about the state of CTC's balance sheets! Usually being egged on by TheBeak. He is the only constant that has been here beating the same drum for most of the last year. Point made. Move on! Even WWW, who's opinion is well respected, has made his excellent points and left it at that. Old Beaky could learn something here.

My previous post was partly in jest but there is no need to add that "They can save themselves and come back when the industry is a little better or not at all if they have some sense.". Now Beak is bashing my industry totally and I don't like that.

I suggest that someone starts a new thread (part 3) on the CTC selection and start fresh and see if it can return to the subject. Why doesn't Mr Beak also start his own thread about the pros and cons of starting your training in the current climate. I'd be keen to add to both threads and think they would both be very useful to wannabes.

lesgonard

Spot on d41xcs. This thread is here to provide potential cadets with information about the wings course and selection process.

The 'Evidence that the upturn is upon us' thread provides future pilots with a detailed (if slightly hysterical) discussion on the current economic climate and how that affects the airline industry. It's certainly worth reading.

It would be nice however if the two threads could be kept seperate. Users shouldn't be subject to the vitriolic abuse they get for merely enquiring about a career in aviation.

Air_One

If CTC were being completly honest with new cadet's they would tell you up front how big the hold pool currently is. However good luck getting that information from the horses mouth. No one actually seems to know how many years you could potentially be waiting for a job. If you ask them all CTC will say is that 'they are still very confident despite the current market conditions' (what ever that means!).

This forum might be 'boring' - however it does provide a balanced and very real view for people who are considering spending a life changing sum of money.

If I was spending 100K I would want all the facts on which to base my decision !?
Repaying £1000 a month for the next 10 years is a big commitment ! And not one I would want to make without the near certainty of a well paid first officer job soon after graduation

bigjarv

Never in the history of aviation has a job ever been guaranteed after graduating (apart from being sponsored and even then...) no matter how much money you throw at it. The fact that companies have worked hard to try and set this type of system up is a very good thing. You used to (in the civil world) have to get CPL and ATPL then instruct to get some hours, get your IR, maybe instruct some more, then get lucky and get an air taxi job or photography job, then some multi time some how, then get lucky and get the airline job. A very long route to getting to the pointy end of a jet. You did however have a great time doing it and in the process become a very, not necessarily good, but well rounded pilot with lots of experience to take to the airlines. People and airlines are too impatient to got through all that now. Want to go straight for the "glamour job"!! This is why we have these schools and people paying for their own type ratings etc. Could be argued that the old system was better. Made sure people appreciated what they got and really enjoyed the experience. Not all about the uniform!! Thats another debate thou! Oh no I'm in danger of doing the very thing I've been trying to tell people not to do!!! Back to CTC!!

Zippy Monster

There's no need to resort to infantile retorts just because a few people express an opinion you don't share. You might be 'bored', but some people reading this thread might well be interested.

When you've got contributors like Mr Bigglesworth above (no offence intended, sir) who, before discussing the issue here, thought anyone with a 250hr fATPL could pop over to the Middle East or South Africa and happily jump straight into a medium jet, you have to question where this sort of idea comes from. One source, I would suspect, would be the marketing departments of these FTOs who talk about the ever-increasing demand for pilots in these 'emerging markets', while neglecting to mention that you've got more chance of winning the Euromillions without even buying a ticket than you have of getting a job there with an rating-less low-hour fATPL.

So actually, the discussion we are having here is absolutely pertinent and relevant to the CTC scheme and those intending to apply. Sorry if it bores you, but you could always use the scroll bar to skip to the more interesting stuff.

I have no idea what your position in the industry is at the moment - trainee (I suspect), unemployed or employed qualified pilot, but I would like to think that those of us on here who have been there, done that and bought the very expensive t-shirt have something useful to contribute. If you have an alternative opinion to offer then fine, but it starts to hold rather less weight if you have nothing to offer but bitter sarcasm.

What a good job they do come here then. If they didn't, it might well be that the only evidence they have of the state of the industry at the moment is from the slick marketing presentations of the likes of CTC.

Nope, that's not what's being said, but I would use expressions such as that to describe someone who was thinking of throwing nearly six figures' worth of secured loan at an integrated training course at the moment. Train slowly and cheaply, and adapt to the market situation. Right now, it's hopeless. If it shows signs of improvement, THEN drop everything and go for it from the position you're in.

Vitriolic abuse? I haven't seen any. Much of what's been on here recently has been informed comment from people who should at least be a little bit clued up. Sorry if you don't like it.

lesgonard

Vitriolic abuse? I haven't seen any

Just read anything by thebeak. In his last post he inferred that anyone who took the liberty of opposing his view was a 'crazy fool.' Clearly a fan of the A-team.

I'm not bored by the viewpoint he or others hold, just the repetitive and verbose manner in which it is plastered all over this forum.

Portside

If you want a thread to be factual (term used loosly), you have to think about the recipiants who are going to read, and dieminate what is intended to be of any use.

The Beak has been very informative, albeit from a sometimes negative point of view. However, that said, he is only saying what is true.

Yes it is a CTC thread for information, good and bad. The issue is CTC make claims of 98% of all cadets being placed. Is this true???

The decision to part with ££££££ is part of the process sadly of becoming an Airline Pilot these days. The question is which FTO gives value for money training: CTC (yes) Oxford (yes) FTE etc... (yes). Any Jobs Now, or for the forseeable future in aviation. (NO!!!!!)

FTO`s are living on past glories. Who unfortunatley are going that step further with their claims of employment. (Oops I meant to say Part time contracts. With no mention or information of how to furnish the dept, once they have your £££££ in the bank, whilst your doing the doggie paddle.)

BIGJARV. Would be happier with... SPEAK NO EVIL, HEAR NO EVIL, SEE NO EVIL.

Archive Zippy monsters threads. He says how it is for a newbie, starting out.

The bank in Hamiliton serves lovely burgers by the way, if you can afford them!!! Whilst those lovely people who have cashed down ££££`s are on fillet steak. ENJOY...
PS.