jb5000

Of course not!

I meant.... buy a horse.

TheBeak

It was 80-90 4-5 - months ago - I am feeling generous, we can call it 80 4 months ago. Apparently growing at 12 per month, 80 + (4 x 12) = 128. Then there are ATP pilots and then, as Zippy says, there are all the EZY and TCX guys and girls coming back to be re-placed ahead of non TR'd pilots. And there is not a chance of a re-placement before February (again me being kind), so that's another 5 months of 12 which is 60 so by that stage it'll be about 190 in the Wings pool + ATP pilots. The ATP people really have no chance I am afraid given their 'purpose'. As I have said, if people haven't been placed by April 2010 I think they wont be able to claim 100% placement for much longer.


Good answer jb.

Mintflavour

What do CTC class as 100% reprsent. i.e. everyone given a perm position. or everyone placed all be it just a tempory post and now returned to the pool/ocean. If it was the first then the 100% ended last last autumn as there are a couple of people still havent been re-posted since returning to the hold pool last autumn despite being type rated.

mint

sleggy

hi guys can anyone explain what the real costs for the CTC cadet programme is. I know the training has changed for 2009 so want to know realistically what i will be paying for

Mintflavour

I was doing a TR with a number of CTC 08 cadets and they all pretty much had £100k loans by this stage.

good luck

mint

One9iner

Sorry to drag this thread back into the limelight after a fairly quiet few days in here....

I’ve been wanting to make a point about the atmosphere within the CTC Wings thread on Pprune for a while. Please note I haven't been through the whole selection process (yet) and do not work for, or for anyone involved with CTC. I do however, know a few who have been through the selection process & are still within the system.

I think and hope you agree, that during the current economic mess we're in (UK/Europe/World!) the views and experiences of others in here who have been through the CTC/Oxford/FTE/Cabair machine, are not pretty reading sentences and paragraphs; but they do however offer ‘in the face’, valued, real life stories from which all of us 'wannabes' must use as an asset of information. This asset must be used while deciding which opinion to believe, piece of advice to use, story to remember, FTO to choose, mod/int decision, UK/US/NZ preferred base bla etc… .yadada.. bla etc bla etc.... etc...during our bloody massive decision process !!!!!

I am one of many who have hit 'TheBeak' and co. with a few words of 'ok we get it, it's sh1t right now, we know, leave it' ... but when it comes to the crunch, the crumb these guys are swallowing is a massive weight on their shoulders, and in turn a massive spot on an otherwise rose tinted sunset for you and I as we all decide the timing of our personal dive into the industry.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the continuous, and relentless message from 'TheBeak, WWW and co' that we've got the currency sh1ts right now, and nobody knows what unsustainable future we have, and we could be worse off by March 2010, Jan 2011, Feb 2018... BUT!!! This is a message from the people within the hole... This IS an opinion that doesn't put a smile on my face, but it's an opinion we all MUST listen to, and use when making decisions, especially one that will implicate our lives forever, and of others who we care for!!

One gripe I still have though, is the fact that we all – me included- , from whatever backgrounds, ages, nations, positions etc… we come from; we all share the same passion of flying, but still manage to verbally rip chunks out of one and another.... I appreciate real life advice, but let’s keep it informative, and let’s keep it polite. You never know, we may end up flying with each other, and if we don't get on during our Pprune exchanges, we'll be forced to swallow a big Ikea sized bag of CRM when it comes to the real thing!!!

Regards

Oranguzee

In regards to your last paragraph One9iner,couldn't do any better!Just by browsing the website and reading full on,heated arguements,mostly(dont take offence)started by the "bullies"!You cannot make a simple question over here,public forum where you were supposed to make them,and you get put down quicker than Paris Hilton knickers....it really puts me off the profession.How would have been to be in the flight deck for x amount of hours maybe days with people like that?
Where's the camaraderie?anyway just a thought...happy flying

Zippy Monster

I can pretty-much guarantee you that most of the people sounding off on these forums with petty name-calling and insults would be completely different if you were having the same debate around the table in the pub over a pint. That's the unfortunate nature of anonymous internet forums.

There's camaraderie, which is all well and good, but if camaraderie stretches to trying to convince each other everything will be alright when faced with no job and repayments on a £75k loan (before interest) secured on your folks' house, then brutal honesty has to come to the fore instead. Unfortunately the way some choose to put that honesty across on here grates with others - understandably so, but if you can read between the forceful choice of words the points made are often very valid. I'm glad one9iner has taken the time to point out that the stories from those of us who have now been through the system and are in the airlines (or importantly, not in them, in the case of many) are of use - even if it helps only a few people to make a sensible, rational decision rather than blindly throwing a large 5-figure sum at an FTO on the basis of some fancy PR, then it's been time well spent.

TheBeak

A nice valid post there one9iner.

Who's that?

It genuinely is an awful time, at times it is consuming. Especially when there is absolutely nothing you can do bar spend a quite frankly sick amount of money that one doesn't have......as a reult of being a pilot.

Is there any further news on this below?

One9iner

...TheBeak.. that last quote about CTC paying off newbie bonds is the first time i've seen that piece of info!!! Yikes...

Beak/Zip ; As I say. your opinions are great, as long as we don't rip each others ears off

(edited to say, some blind people, who don't research, and expect mummy's 1950's porsche to pay out, are the people that a) won't be reading this .. and b) deserve an ear flicking

TFlexMax80

Beak,

There has been no further mention of it in the Balpa forum thread in question. Let's just say, I can't imagine the person who said it would have done so in jest.

TFM80

One9iner

As I say; 'yikes'.... Surely though the price of 'leaving a cadet swimming' waiting for an upturn, is pref. other than buying the boys loan out.. to then dump the chap or leave him on the books while the lender is stewing after making next to a zero interest gain??? (in comparison to a normal 6/7 year repayment package)

What do I know !!! The learning curve seems to be gaining a steeper yet steeper angle as my flight training seems to profile table mountain.....

R T Jones

"making next to a zero interest gain???"

zero interest, I can assure you this is not the case. HSBC have been very accommodating with cadets having to defer the loan. A nice quote I read somewhere on these forums, "if you owe the bank £1,000 its your problem. If you owe them £100,000 its their problem." Certainly a little truth in that...

One9iner

No disagreement from me about the accuracy of my relaxed statement : zero %.

My point was more surrounding the lender preferred state of play.

If CTC feel the need to buy out a cadet’s loan from HSBC to protect CTC’s record (that’s say an £80k loan, 2 years old)….. with nothing on the loan other than interest…big price for CTC to shell out for, while maintaining image...

What's the price of that image I wonder!?

TheBeak

A very true statement and incredibly wise words......until it is secured on a property and then it becomes your (parents) problem again. Something these newbies must remember.

As for CTC repaying the debt, I can't see why they would do that, I can't see in fact how they manage to do alot of the things they do. There must be more to it than meets the eye - they can't be doing it just to save face and preserve image can they? I do however believe that it has probably happened. Perhaps they are playing the long game so that, in time, they can get the unsecured loan back in the future. I think they'll be waiting a long time and have probably delayed the inevitable if so.

Sounds fair to me.

99jolegg

No, it's not guaranteed at all.

It used to be pretty much guaranteed, since for years, CTC never had a cadet leave without a job.

Now a wait of 18 months or more is likely in the hold pool but there is no guarantee of a job after those months waiting for recruitment to pick up.

That said, is anything in aviation guaranteed?

TheBeak

Don't be sorry sponsorship hunter, ask away. And no it's not guaranteed. Far from it in fact.

x933

If CTC can afford to do this for anything more than the odd cadet then:

A) They're being bankrolled by an idiot
OR
B) You were being ripped off on your training.

It sets a very dangerous precedent though. For reference - I didn't pass selection for CTC 2 years ago. Am I bitter? No. Am I glad? Guess.

TheBeak

However if you are ever going to do the training or if you have, the unsecured loan would have made life alot less stressful.

I'd still be interested to know why CTC paid off these trainees loans and at what stage these trainees (FOs) are at.

There must be more to it that meets the eye. It's another thing I'd want to understand before handing over my money to CTC to potentially pay off someone elses debt.

Has the payment schedule changed now that the course structure has 'changed shape'? I wouldn't like to think they are making the payments front heavy to improve liquidity - Ground School costs very little compared to flying. I am not accusing, and I am sure they aren't, but be careful and look into this - they can't justify the same payment schedule as before.

FANS

You have to be off your rocker to consider an integrated course now, unless you can afford to loose £80k.

Forget borrowing money on your folks' home. If you need to borrow, you can't afford it and should not be doing it in the current climate.

CTC used to be a fantastic product that benefitted all concerned, but to do it now you'd need to be a huge risk taker, and airlines don't like huge risk takers!

Seriously, look at the threads around wizzair getting 1000s of applicants, EZY's flexi-crew, RYR trying to further cut t&cs (what's next?) every airline cutting routes/jobs/going bust etc. The industry is absolutely knackered and people just need to get real.

If it comes back in 2 years, then you've won some more time to save and lost nothing. Airlines and deep recessions are an awful combination and peoples lives could be ruined borrowing huge amounts for training.