The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
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iCP is completely self funded i believe, CTC secure 30,000 quid of the bond in the cadet scheme but not iCP. Also, i dont think you do a PPL - you just go straight from foundation into CPL/IR, i think you then join the wings guys to complete your ATPL and AQC. that last bit of info might not be accurate tho- trying to remember from the phase 2 introduction.
So. HSBC aren't loaning the money any more.
No airline is taking on cadets coming out of training.
Some of those already placed are not being offered jobs at the end of the six months.
I'd say this looks pretty serious for the scheme.
WWW
No airline is taking on cadets coming out of training.
Some of those already placed are not being offered jobs at the end of the six months.
I'd say this looks pretty serious for the scheme.
WWW
Indeed WWW, in short that does seem the state of play at the moment. Partner airlines have announced recruitment freezes that will be reviewed in spring of next year. As one of the younger people without a degree going through I am rather concerned about these latest announcements. The training I've received so far has been very good, but without the HSBC loan, I would never have been able to come here. It certainly is not the time to be finishing with £1100 a month worth of repayments over your head and a job looking as much as a year away. Who knows, perhaps it will recover, but for the moment the winter is looking rather bleak.
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Doom and gloom all said, those of you starting training at the moment may just pop out as things pick up and jobs slowly start to become available. While it’s not an ideal time I do think that you will have a much better chance of getting a job through CTC than on your own. You might find yourself waiting but some people through other schools etc might be waiting longer!!! It is in CTC's interests to place you and they are going to be doing their best to find you a job (though it may not be in the UK).
It is definitely a time to think very carefully about starting training, where you train and what you are going to do once you finish (finance wise). I have to be honest when I started I didn't think a great deal about what I would do if the wheels came off! I was fortunate that times were good.
Enjoy your training guys and good luck.
It is definitely a time to think very carefully about starting training, where you train and what you are going to do once you finish (finance wise). I have to be honest when I started I didn't think a great deal about what I would do if the wheels came off! I was fortunate that times were good.
Enjoy your training guys and good luck.
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Considering I start in November, that post makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside 
It is right though, the debate is not CTC vs other FTO, it's FTO vs other day job.
Optimism and naivety are our most powerful assets
It is right though, the debate is not CTC vs other FTO, it's FTO vs other day job.
Optimism and naivety are our most powerful assets
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Ok so all might be fine in the future for CTC cadets starting training now. However all cadets whether CTC or not have to remember that there are many pilots sitting in airline hold pools with hours, they will be first on an airline list before fresh faced cadets.
Does part of the CTC cadet qualification allow cadets to keep up their flying hours whilst sitting in the hold pool? I myself know of at least 8 pilots sitting in hold pools whilst flying with there current employer.
Finally there will be future positions for cadets when the job market picks up and no doubt CTC will be well placed to push their cadets but you have to remember that payscales may well be very different. Not to mention the fact you have to keep up regular payments, possibly before your first flying job.
The partner airline days as we know it may be numbered. Hopefully the respected company can come up with more fresh ideas.
My 2p worth.
Does part of the CTC cadet qualification allow cadets to keep up their flying hours whilst sitting in the hold pool? I myself know of at least 8 pilots sitting in hold pools whilst flying with there current employer.
Finally there will be future positions for cadets when the job market picks up and no doubt CTC will be well placed to push their cadets but you have to remember that payscales may well be very different. Not to mention the fact you have to keep up regular payments, possibly before your first flying job.
The partner airline days as we know it may be numbered. Hopefully the respected company can come up with more fresh ideas.
My 2p worth.
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The advantages to the airline of taking a young chap with a fresh license and paid for type rating from CTC are as follows:
Long term loyality - as the cadet is desperate to pay back their loan
Cheaper salary as the cadet starts at the beginning of the payscale
Known ability - coming from one of the worlds best intergrated courses
Ability to order pilots direct from CTC and have them delivered and trained in house.
Long term loyality - as the cadet is desperate to pay back their loan
Cheaper salary as the cadet starts at the beginning of the payscale
Known ability - coming from one of the worlds best intergrated courses
Ability to order pilots direct from CTC and have them delivered and trained in house.
2. Cheaper salary than a non-ctc pilot starting at the bottom of the payscale?
3. Known ability. Some airlines have questioned this over the last few years where several ctc cadets have been 'let go' during or after line training. Probably due to ctc standards slipping as the demand was so high. My airline has started up its TRTO again to do their own type rating training.
4. Can't see the great advantage there, indeed many trained by CTC are taught generic 'easy', 'jet2' or 'BA' sops as the trainers don't know the airlines' sops well enough.
I have done 2 jet type ratings with CTC, paid for by 2 different airlines and am currently a trainer with one of their (former) customer airlines who have been slowly getting less happy with the product. Indeed on my last type rating I think I taught the trainers more about my airline's ops than they taught me about the type.
I think what it comes more down to is CTC taking the financial risk if one of their pilots doesn't make the grade, and of course cost. That is what airlines liked about their product. If the product doesn't maintain its standard then the customers become less happy with that product. Now we have a recession the demand has fallen away completely. Over the next year or two this could be good for CTC as the supply will increase and therefore they can get more choosy again. This is what happened through the last downturn. However, the short term looks a bit bleaker for them in my opinion.
PP
No loan for me!!!
Hello all.
I recently passed my phase 4 assessment and all seemed great!!
I then went for my interview with HSBC and was turned down...because of student loans/overdraft and what really got to me was that they also said it was because I have a degree in music not a flying related topic.
I accept that HSBC are pulling the loans in sept and that at the moment they have to be more careful with their money.
Having waffled on here is the question...does anyone out there have any suggestion/ideas of other possible places to get the all important 60k????
Chris
I recently passed my phase 4 assessment and all seemed great!!
I then went for my interview with HSBC and was turned down...because of student loans/overdraft and what really got to me was that they also said it was because I have a degree in music not a flying related topic.
I accept that HSBC are pulling the loans in sept and that at the moment they have to be more careful with their money.
Having waffled on here is the question...does anyone out there have any suggestion/ideas of other possible places to get the all important 60k????
Chris
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Wow just thought i'd check up to see how CTC is reacting to the downturn. Incredible to see how much as changed really - the real advantages and attraction to it seem to have gone. A shame in a way for those talented potential pilots who can't finance it.
The best way forward seems to be leisurely modular training at a gentle pace with a job on the side. But hey if you just focus on enjoying the training and flying then the time will fly by and the market will be healthier before you know it.
The best way forward seems to be leisurely modular training at a gentle pace with a job on the side. But hey if you just focus on enjoying the training and flying then the time will fly by and the market will be healthier before you know it.
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If you REALLY feel you have to do it right now, someone posted on the OAA forum 10 days ago here that a local Natwest just agreed a 75k training loan deferred till 6 months after graduation. Someone else posted about BoS but given the seismic events in the last week or so, that avenue may now be closed 
Chaps,
I have no shoulder chips about CTC and have absolutely relished working with many of their cadets over many years. But.
Career prospects are a matter of opinion. The debt is real.
WWW
There are far too many armchair pilots and others who have a chip on their shoulder concerning CTC with too much spare time on their hands, to post their pesimistic outlooks on the future for cadets of the future and those inside in the machine
Career prospects are a matter of opinion. The debt is real.
WWW
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Bit ironic reading people's comments about CTC's scheme not being a sponsorship.
It never was. Provided you passed the selection and training, you are buying into a job.
The debt is acceptable if you get a flying job at the end of it, and obviously it isn't if you don't. But it's the same scheme.
A lottery ticket costs the same whether you win or not.
I wouldn't be surprised if people are still going through the selection and paying 200 quid for half an hour of computer tests thinking that it's always the others that don't get a job, and it'll be alright in the end.
Good luck to all struggling. It's a bit disturbing knowing that potential airline professionals can't sleep at night because of debt. Even if one got a job, would still be in debt for years. I wouldn't want to be a passenger in your flight.
I am a trainee ATCO now and I wouldn't be able to do my job if there was a 100 grand debt all the times in the back of my mind while looking at a radar screen...
It never was. Provided you passed the selection and training, you are buying into a job.
The debt is acceptable if you get a flying job at the end of it, and obviously it isn't if you don't. But it's the same scheme.
A lottery ticket costs the same whether you win or not.
I wouldn't be surprised if people are still going through the selection and paying 200 quid for half an hour of computer tests thinking that it's always the others that don't get a job, and it'll be alright in the end.
Good luck to all struggling. It's a bit disturbing knowing that potential airline professionals can't sleep at night because of debt. Even if one got a job, would still be in debt for years. I wouldn't want to be a passenger in your flight.
I am a trainee ATCO now and I wouldn't be able to do my job if there was a 100 grand debt all the times in the back of my mind while looking at a radar screen...
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I think that's a pretty brash statement if I'm honest! Without wanting to fuel a massive debate, sponsorship can be defined in a number of ways, and it is not just simply the finance involved. Sponsorship is a way of showing support for people with potential, and although I do fully appreciate that finance is a huge motivator for those looking for sponsorship, there is more to it than that.
Having a significant debt is a very real consideration, but surely a cadet who is in employment doing what they love is not unsafe - I'd go with the contrary in fact! The packages offered by all the partner airlines are excellent, and fair enough, a decent chunk goes back into repayments, but you still are left with a very competitive typical graduate salary after repayments in year one! I agree that whilst waiting for a job, people may well lose sleep, but once the job is there, the hardest part is done and there is some security. Cadets will not want to lose the opportunity they have had to work so hard for for so long, so they will be the ones who are at dispatch early to be as prepared as possible, they will pay extra attention to detail....
....and the difference about wanting to be a pilot and an ATCO is that we get to see the amazing sunrises and sunsets and are completely responsible when we are bringing 50 tonnes of metal down the glideslope in crappy weather at nearly 200 mph....you guys sit in front of a computer screen in a dark room (not to be taken that I don't appreciate that what ATC do is challenging by the way!!)
Having a significant debt is a very real consideration, but surely a cadet who is in employment doing what they love is not unsafe - I'd go with the contrary in fact! The packages offered by all the partner airlines are excellent, and fair enough, a decent chunk goes back into repayments, but you still are left with a very competitive typical graduate salary after repayments in year one! I agree that whilst waiting for a job, people may well lose sleep, but once the job is there, the hardest part is done and there is some security. Cadets will not want to lose the opportunity they have had to work so hard for for so long, so they will be the ones who are at dispatch early to be as prepared as possible, they will pay extra attention to detail....
....and the difference about wanting to be a pilot and an ATCO is that we get to see the amazing sunrises and sunsets and are completely responsible when we are bringing 50 tonnes of metal down the glideslope in crappy weather at nearly 200 mph....you guys sit in front of a computer screen in a dark room (not to be taken that I don't appreciate that what ATC do is challenging by the way!!)
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Even if one got a job, would still be in debt for years. I wouldn't want to be a passenger in your flight.
I've been paying my HSBC debt back for several years, I don't spare it any thought. I have a job that is as secure as i can expect in this industry. Believe me, the last thing on my mind when I disconnect the autopilot with 150 people sat behind me is my finances!
Your post is a bit too "I'm alright jack" for this thread and this forum when you consider the current problems people are facing, particularly those at the end of their training.
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BMRR Wasn't meant to be a cheap shot at all, and apologise if anyone believed so. I just meant that, as you guys know much better than me, human factors can play a part in incidents and mistakes and financial instability can, in some people, be a cause for stress.
Trust me, I am not one of the shoulder chip brigade. I did fail stage 3 a year and a half ago and, despite a solid aviation background, a private licence, experience in airline ground ops and good results in the aptitude tests (according to their feedback, not mine) CTC believed that I wasn't suitable for team work and invited me not to apply ever again. I have been involved in team work all of my adult life, so something must have really gone wrong in that interview....
Now I could be in the situation of being at the end of training with no job and lots of debt, and I would hate it. Also because I could have been in the same situation with self sponsored training, ending up equally without a job, but at least spending much less. So in the end I guessing failing the selection was a bit of a blessing in disguise. At least for me, and the way I perceive debt. Others can be more relaxed about it, and can handle the financial stress better.
And PAJ, I'll give you that, the last 400 feet can be quite interesting sometimes
regards
Trust me, I am not one of the shoulder chip brigade. I did fail stage 3 a year and a half ago and, despite a solid aviation background, a private licence, experience in airline ground ops and good results in the aptitude tests (according to their feedback, not mine) CTC believed that I wasn't suitable for team work and invited me not to apply ever again. I have been involved in team work all of my adult life, so something must have really gone wrong in that interview....
Now I could be in the situation of being at the end of training with no job and lots of debt, and I would hate it. Also because I could have been in the same situation with self sponsored training, ending up equally without a job, but at least spending much less. So in the end I guessing failing the selection was a bit of a blessing in disguise. At least for me, and the way I perceive debt. Others can be more relaxed about it, and can handle the financial stress better.
And PAJ, I'll give you that, the last 400 feet can be quite interesting sometimes
regards
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Good luck with ATC Ivor. I find it suprising that you got through the NATS (I presume it's NATS) selection, which I personally found a heck of a lot tougher than CTC, and yet CTC said no. They make some strange decisions.
To be fair you get to tell us what to do now!
To be fair you get to tell us what to do now!