The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
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Stocious,
When you consider the legal costs, loan fees, interest rates and missed payments/reduced repayment periods I think 120-180k sounds about right.
These guys have really been screwed over. It's not right.
When you consider the legal costs, loan fees, interest rates and missed payments/reduced repayment periods I think 120-180k sounds about right.
These guys have really been screwed over. It's not right.
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However the reallity is very different, the debit at the end of all the training including type ratings cost of living etc ranges with each individual. the figures the cadets have given me range between £120,000 to £180,000.
That gives a broad costing of £82,000 to £92,000. Then there are the candidates living costs. Accommodation is provided, but transport, food and personal incidentals are not. Allowing for £2000 in capital costs (car share etc.) and £500 a month for living costs over 15 months (if you can't manage on that, try harder!) that comes to a sensible budget of circa £91,500 to £101,500 at the top end!) This is all ab-initio.
I am having trouble seeing where loans of £180,000 come from, unless there was (even in the worst case,) remedial training of over £78,500! It is difficult to imagine such a scenario. Similarly the same sum could involve living costs of over £5,700 a month, which means they would be living to a standard of luxury that a gulf royal prince would be proud of.
Those cadets that I have discussed such things with, didn't have to pay any type rating costs on joining their airline (obviously not your company,) and those with loans seem to have them in the 70-85K range.
I am not suggesting that these sums of money are anything less than eye watering, and should definetely be regarded as "mortgage levels of debt" without an asset to mitigate the borrowing. The risks associated with the assumption of this level is debt should be considered very carefully and always with a backup plan. However, simply throwing unrealistic numbers into the fray undermines your argument.
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Bealzebub
You worry me greatly, looking briefly through the comments on this issue, whenever there is a negitive comment against the training providers, you seem to try and justify there sytem. Who do you work for!!!!!
I listen to these to the plight of the F/O on a daily basis, taking crew sandwiches so they can eat, sleeping on friends floors, I have sent seveal home because the are too Ill to operate yet they still come in because they need the money. Dont play games with a few numbers to justify your cause.
You worry me greatly, looking briefly through the comments on this issue, whenever there is a negitive comment against the training providers, you seem to try and justify there sytem. Who do you work for!!!!!
I listen to these to the plight of the F/O on a daily basis, taking crew sandwiches so they can eat, sleeping on friends floors, I have sent seveal home because the are too Ill to operate yet they still come in because they need the money. Dont play games with a few numbers to justify your cause.
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I am not sure why I should worry you? If you have actually looked back through the posts you would be able to answer all of your own questions. I work for a partner airline.
The figures you were throwing out are simply unrealistic and I suspect you already know that. I am attempting to provide a degree of accurate information for people to use as a tool for their own use, rather than specious and unqualified comment.
I wasn't aware that I had "a cause." Are you suggesting these figures are wrong or in someway "a game"?
I would suggest then that the problem is with your company rather than the training provider. Our cadets do eat crew meals (in much the same ratio as anybody else seems to.) Seem to have comfortable and adequate living arrangements, (nobody has suggested otherwise for the last 15 years.) I have never sent anybody home. If they are sick they report sick. Apart from a relatively small amount of flight related pay, they would still receive their salary or (during the placement period) their bond repayments. If what you say is accurate, then it wouldn't be the intention of the FTO but rather the terms and conditions imposed by your employer. On that subject, I would defer to people with far greater insight. However, your company has been dominant in providing placement opportunities for graduates throughout a period of severe recession. I have said it before, but will say it again, they were pretty much the only game in town, and clearly used their advantage in this marketplace to set the terms and conditions that they chose to offer.
The figures you were throwing out are simply unrealistic and I suspect you already know that. I am attempting to provide a degree of accurate information for people to use as a tool for their own use, rather than specious and unqualified comment.
Dont play games with a few numbers to justify your cause.
I listen to these to the plight of the F/O on a daily basis, taking crew sandwiches so they can eat, sleeping on friends floors, I have sent seveal home because the are too Ill to operate yet they still come in because they need the money.
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comes to a sensible budget of circa £91,500 to £101,500 at the top end!
You kiddin' right?
I can't help wondering why most of the other guys here, who work with those people every day, don't stop warning against the whole thing, while you never miss a chance to defend the program... And this in a well-structured, eloquent fashion.
Not getting a piece of the cake, too, are you?
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I have no idea what you "can take that to mean." I cannot recall ever advising somebody to take out loans that they cannot afford. Perhaps you can run a search through my posts and attempt to point out where I ever have?
I have always attempted to give an honest, balanced and realistic appraisal of the market and how it has both evolved and what future direction it is likely to take. I don't think I pull my punches, or sugarcoat the reality in any way.
I talk about what I know about. If you don't like it, then you don't like it. If you disagree then fine. These programmes are an evolution of similar programmes that have been in existence for decades. The financing and composition of them has also evolved over the same period. For some people coming to these forums, they want information based on what is happening in the real world, not necessarily someones informed or ill informed opinion.
I see people who have used these courses to their advantage and betterment and it is entirely right to point that out. That there are enormous risks and pitfalls as well as some extremely poor companies out there, is something that I try and point out as often as possible and within the context of the particular reply. Nevertheless there are people and companies who utilise these programmes to good effect and with good results. They are undoubtably the lucky ones, in this enormous "pyramid of shattered dreams," but the reality is that they exist. I have given examples of where this has been the case and continues to be the case.
For people realistically looking for a fast track career with a couple of hundred hours (as so many are here,) the options are extremely limited. They have always been extremely limited. However there are options out there for the few who might qualify for them by virtue of ability, financial resource, and luck.
If a 20 year old wannabe asked me privately what I thought was the best way of getting an airline career these days was, I would tell them the same as I post on here. That is my experience of the market in the last 15 years. I have seen many people succesfully come through these programmes. That the path to a career in aviation is littered with bodies, is something that I have repeated time and time again, so I don't think I do anything to encourage or paint an unrealistic picture of the landscape.
So no, I am not kidding, and no I don't "get a piece of the cake" either. But I do work in a company where over a quarter of the pilot workforce are now graduates of these programmes and a company that continues to recruit from all of the traditional sources in roughly equal measure. I am not a graduate of this type of training, but I might be if I could turn the clock back 35 years. Not one penny of my annual income is dependent on these programmes or the FTO's involved in conducting them, nor is it ever likely to be.
Where you have good partners the programmes work well. Much of the sensible criticism being levelled, is about the partner airlines more than it is the programmes, the FTO's, or the young candidates. Where this combination exists, it shouldn't be too difficult to understand why a well structured cadet programme as part of a balanced recruitment drive is well defended. I make no apologies for that. For those companies where volume has perhaps smothered most of the vestiges of quality and investment, it isn't difficult to also see the usual daily rants (which may well be justified) emerging, blaming everyone and everything for their woes. Of course that is why you read so much of what you do read. It certainly isn't too hard to figure out.
I have always attempted to give an honest, balanced and realistic appraisal of the market and how it has both evolved and what future direction it is likely to take. I don't think I pull my punches, or sugarcoat the reality in any way.
I talk about what I know about. If you don't like it, then you don't like it. If you disagree then fine. These programmes are an evolution of similar programmes that have been in existence for decades. The financing and composition of them has also evolved over the same period. For some people coming to these forums, they want information based on what is happening in the real world, not necessarily someones informed or ill informed opinion.
I see people who have used these courses to their advantage and betterment and it is entirely right to point that out. That there are enormous risks and pitfalls as well as some extremely poor companies out there, is something that I try and point out as often as possible and within the context of the particular reply. Nevertheless there are people and companies who utilise these programmes to good effect and with good results. They are undoubtably the lucky ones, in this enormous "pyramid of shattered dreams," but the reality is that they exist. I have given examples of where this has been the case and continues to be the case.
For people realistically looking for a fast track career with a couple of hundred hours (as so many are here,) the options are extremely limited. They have always been extremely limited. However there are options out there for the few who might qualify for them by virtue of ability, financial resource, and luck.
If a 20 year old wannabe asked me privately what I thought was the best way of getting an airline career these days was, I would tell them the same as I post on here. That is my experience of the market in the last 15 years. I have seen many people succesfully come through these programmes. That the path to a career in aviation is littered with bodies, is something that I have repeated time and time again, so I don't think I do anything to encourage or paint an unrealistic picture of the landscape.
So no, I am not kidding, and no I don't "get a piece of the cake" either. But I do work in a company where over a quarter of the pilot workforce are now graduates of these programmes and a company that continues to recruit from all of the traditional sources in roughly equal measure. I am not a graduate of this type of training, but I might be if I could turn the clock back 35 years. Not one penny of my annual income is dependent on these programmes or the FTO's involved in conducting them, nor is it ever likely to be.
Where you have good partners the programmes work well. Much of the sensible criticism being levelled, is about the partner airlines more than it is the programmes, the FTO's, or the young candidates. Where this combination exists, it shouldn't be too difficult to understand why a well structured cadet programme as part of a balanced recruitment drive is well defended. I make no apologies for that. For those companies where volume has perhaps smothered most of the vestiges of quality and investment, it isn't difficult to also see the usual daily rants (which may well be justified) emerging, blaming everyone and everything for their woes. Of course that is why you read so much of what you do read. It certainly isn't too hard to figure out.
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As you are aware I work for the Orange brigade. I am therefore in a very good position to say what happens on the coal face. It is an utter discrace how these men and woman are treated just because they are trying to follow there dream, which turns into a nightmare.
I will let the jury decide who's best interest you have at heart.
I was recently asked by a friend to go to a school and do a presentation on becoming a pilot something I have done when my children were younger,i had to refuse. How can you promote exploitation. I am ashamed of what has become of our industry.
I will let the jury decide who's best interest you have at heart.
I was recently asked by a friend to go to a school and do a presentation on becoming a pilot something I have done when my children were younger,i had to refuse. How can you promote exploitation. I am ashamed of what has become of our industry.
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I work in an industry that has evolved, and people still want to become a part of it. I have worked in it for 37 years. I see a part of my role as mentoring, supporting and teaching those people coming into the industry in order that they can take the bits they want to enable them to come the sort of pilots, and indeed people, that they want to be. I take some pride in that, and am not ashamed at all. Likewise, and whatever its faults may be, I also take pride in the job I do and with the employer I work for. Neither they nor I are perfect by a long chalk, but in recognising that fact we still try to be the best we can be. I really do believe that as a company (of which I am one very small cog) we treat people well, and we do endeavour to provide a positive and happy environment for people to work in, but more relevant to this discussion, to develop, grow and prosper in.
Over the best part of the last two decades, I have seen many, many young people come into this industry through this route, and achieve those qualities and fulfilled ambitions. Of those that I have worked with, I cannot once ever say that the way we treated them was a disgrace. It wasn't! Moreover since the vast majority are still working for us, some in quite senior positions, clearly they didn't think so either. Today in a fiercely cut-throat and competitive marketplace, we still pay for type ratings and pay training expenses to our cadets. We do, wherever possible, offer full time contracts after the short 6 month placement periods to our cadets. We don't exploit anybody. Further still, as part of a balanced recruitment programme, we place due weight on ex-cadet pilots from other employers (such as yours,) as a desirable source of our "experienced pilot" intake.
I wouldn't have any problem giving a school presentation on "becoming a pilot" simply because I would give an honest and balanced presentation. Perhaps your personal angst should be focused closer to home, rather than young people or the world in general. Should that focus be successful, there would be even more good opportunities for the best people striving to enter this profession.
So when you say....
...Then that is fine by me. I will continue to help people succeed. and encourage them to achieve that success. I will warn people of the pitfalls and the realities. I will continue to highlight the enormous attrition rate that is prevalent in this career path. I am guilty of all those things and will continue to be so. Besides my salary and pension I don't have any other source of income, so that won't really be for your "jury" to decide.
Over the best part of the last two decades, I have seen many, many young people come into this industry through this route, and achieve those qualities and fulfilled ambitions. Of those that I have worked with, I cannot once ever say that the way we treated them was a disgrace. It wasn't! Moreover since the vast majority are still working for us, some in quite senior positions, clearly they didn't think so either. Today in a fiercely cut-throat and competitive marketplace, we still pay for type ratings and pay training expenses to our cadets. We do, wherever possible, offer full time contracts after the short 6 month placement periods to our cadets. We don't exploit anybody. Further still, as part of a balanced recruitment programme, we place due weight on ex-cadet pilots from other employers (such as yours,) as a desirable source of our "experienced pilot" intake.
I wouldn't have any problem giving a school presentation on "becoming a pilot" simply because I would give an honest and balanced presentation. Perhaps your personal angst should be focused closer to home, rather than young people or the world in general. Should that focus be successful, there would be even more good opportunities for the best people striving to enter this profession.
So when you say....
I will let the jury decide who's best interest you have at heart.
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that comes to a sensible budget of circa £91,500 to £101,500 at the top end!) This is all ab-initio.
And interest on the loan payment whilst in training? What rate are these guys paying? Even at low loan interest rates of 3%, thats another 6k of debt on top for two years before re-payment has even started.
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I can confirm that they do indeed use Pilapt. I think the pass mark is 6/10 average as there were people on my course with that score. Though, good luck getting there with the weather like this in the CI :P
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Bealzebub, How about you get your facts straight before you post with this self appointed authority that you seem to think you have? I am sorry to come across strongly but I'm starting to find your posting either deluded, uninformed or perhaps biased for some reason
Let us take your following post apart, piece by piece.
Using the following link (which is all you'd needed to have done to avoid posting rubbish):
http://www.ctcwings.com/uploads/CTC_...flet_Oct12.pdf
Wings Cadets pay:
£69000 for course fees plus another 33000NZD for the foundation course - that's £18300 at current exchange rates. That's already £87300.
On top we have:
i'd estimate these at about £1000 for 'fees', £200 for an insurance and how much for food and subsistence would you say? Let's be reasonable to you and set it low - during my time I needed about £100 a week at good exchange rates . This is for food, petrol, going out with everyone, calling home, internet etc. So over a 14 month minimum course (ours took a considerable amount longer) that's £6000.
So we're at £95000 already......before interest is added on. Let's say you were offered 3 % APR over 7 years - the total amount repayable will be £116838.
This is using the following calculator:
Compound Interest Calculator
Then CTC ask people to pay for a type rating on top with most airlines apart from your very fine, fair and reasonable establishment - another £12000 is it now?
So in fact your debt is £107000 or with that interest rate is £131500. Now throw in some delayed payments because you're only on £1200 a month for the first 8 months. And then throw in another 6 months delayed payments because there wasn't a type rating available. You're easily well over £140000 for the CTC scheme. On the Oxford/ Parc scheme with a £35000 TR, housing and a more expensive course you're well over £180000.
And that interest calculator considers that you'll repay immediately from taking the loan - not 14,18 or 24 months down the line. You're easily looking at £1800 a month repayments over a 7 year time period. That's £28000 a year you need to earn to service the loan.
Let us take your following post apart, piece by piece.
he figures I have seen are around £69,000 for the training course (bond) and around £10,000 for a "foundation course." There are other incidentals such as medicals, insurances and course equipment (around £3,000.) What happens at the end of the course then determines any additional "hard" costs. By that I mean it depends on the partner airline and if a placement immediately follows on from the course. Where it does, the additional cost can be as little as nothing (airline pays for type rating and also provides per diem allowances for training.) To close on an additional £10,000 for type rating training with airlines such as yours! These costs are determined by the partner airline rather than the FTO.
That gives a broad costing of £82,000 to £92,000. Then there are the candidates living costs. Accommodation is provided, but transport, food and personal incidentals are not. Allowing for £2000 in capital costs (car share etc.) and £500 a month for living costs over 15 months (if you can't manage on that, try harder!) that comes to a sensible budget of circa £91,500 to £101,500 at the top end!) This is all ab-initio.
I am having trouble seeing where loans of £180,000 come from, unless there was (even in the worst case,) remedial training of over £78,500! It is difficult to imagine such a scenario. Similarly the same sum could involve living costs of over £5,700 a month, which means they would be living to a standard of luxury that a gulf royal prince would be proud of.
Those cadets that I have discussed such things with, didn't have to pay any type rating costs on joining their airline (obviously not your company,) and those with loans seem to have them in the 70-85K range.
I am not suggesting that these sums of money are anything less than eye watering, and should definetely be regarded as "mortgage levels of debt" without an asset to mitigate the borrowing. The risks associated with the assumption of this level is debt should be considered very carefully and always with a backup plan. However, simply throwing unrealistic numbers into the fray undermines your argument.
That gives a broad costing of £82,000 to £92,000. Then there are the candidates living costs. Accommodation is provided, but transport, food and personal incidentals are not. Allowing for £2000 in capital costs (car share etc.) and £500 a month for living costs over 15 months (if you can't manage on that, try harder!) that comes to a sensible budget of circa £91,500 to £101,500 at the top end!) This is all ab-initio.
I am having trouble seeing where loans of £180,000 come from, unless there was (even in the worst case,) remedial training of over £78,500! It is difficult to imagine such a scenario. Similarly the same sum could involve living costs of over £5,700 a month, which means they would be living to a standard of luxury that a gulf royal prince would be proud of.
Those cadets that I have discussed such things with, didn't have to pay any type rating costs on joining their airline (obviously not your company,) and those with loans seem to have them in the 70-85K range.
I am not suggesting that these sums of money are anything less than eye watering, and should definetely be regarded as "mortgage levels of debt" without an asset to mitigate the borrowing. The risks associated with the assumption of this level is debt should be considered very carefully and always with a backup plan. However, simply throwing unrealistic numbers into the fray undermines your argument.
http://www.ctcwings.com/uploads/CTC_...flet_Oct12.pdf
Wings Cadets pay:
£69000 for course fees plus another 33000NZD for the foundation course - that's £18300 at current exchange rates. That's already £87300.
On top we have:
Items Excluded from the Course
• Selection fees;
• Initial Class 1 medical and renewal fees;
• Loss of medical and life insurances;
• Travel insurance as required by the New Zealand
Immigration Service;
• English language tests where applicable;
• Food and subsistence costs;
• Re-tests of flight skills tests;
• Re-tests of ATPL examinations.
• Selection fees;
• Initial Class 1 medical and renewal fees;
• Loss of medical and life insurances;
• Travel insurance as required by the New Zealand
Immigration Service;
• English language tests where applicable;
• Food and subsistence costs;
• Re-tests of flight skills tests;
• Re-tests of ATPL examinations.
So we're at £95000 already......before interest is added on. Let's say you were offered 3 % APR over 7 years - the total amount repayable will be £116838.
This is using the following calculator:
Compound Interest Calculator
Then CTC ask people to pay for a type rating on top with most airlines apart from your very fine, fair and reasonable establishment - another £12000 is it now?
So in fact your debt is £107000 or with that interest rate is £131500. Now throw in some delayed payments because you're only on £1200 a month for the first 8 months. And then throw in another 6 months delayed payments because there wasn't a type rating available. You're easily well over £140000 for the CTC scheme. On the Oxford/ Parc scheme with a £35000 TR, housing and a more expensive course you're well over £180000.
And that interest calculator considers that you'll repay immediately from taking the loan - not 14,18 or 24 months down the line. You're easily looking at £1800 a month repayments over a 7 year time period. That's £28000 a year you need to earn to service the loan.
Last edited by WhyByFlier; 12th Mar 2013 at 13:53.
Well that was fairly rude. Bealzebub contributes useful stuff to this thread which myself and many others greatly appreciated and helped me decide whether or not to bite the bullet or not..
He (or she) has stated before that he has no connection to CTC Aviation other than to have flown with CTC Graduates in airline cadetship positions. Anything he has said was information that had been passed on to him either secondhand or perhaps was read some time ago. I never remember seeing him claim to be an authority but I suppose that assumption was made because he has contributed a lot. There are very few graduates with placements that post on this section of pprune so any info from the other side had always been greatly appreciated.
The figures he quotes were accurate at the time I started training and had been for some time, they had only recently changed. I believe an increase in late 2011 to 21000 NZD for the foundation course and then the recent increase (I don't know when). Any cadet that would have graduated up until now would have paid the old prices. Your post talks about the debt costs were you to take out a loan. Nobody is forcing you to borrow money to take this course, that is up to the individuals circumstances. Different loans may have different rates and the figures given were the basic cost of the course. I am not entirely sure but I think the majority on the course don't go through BBVA and certainly not for the total course cost. Any personal savings would seriously reduce the total debt accrued.
To update your figures, insurance is around £1000 for 28 months or until type rating is complete (and a £50 supplement if you want to go skiing in New Zealand
). The course isn't going to happen in 14 months, 18 is typical but I hear that recent groups are facing delays due to various reasons. I was told to set aside 10k for living costs to cover the duration.
As I understand, the only airline that asks for a contribution to the type rating is Easyjet/Flexicrew which isn't most of the partner airlines (albeit the majority of cadets will end up taking this route). Type ratings cost money and to cover it, you will be bonded to the airline for a number of years. The amount owed for the type rating will slowly reduce over that period. It isn't money that you will have to borrow up front unless you go to Ryanair etc. Therefore you wont be making loan repayments as such or accruing interest. The figures I saw (some time ago) suggested that between month 18-24, based on an 80k loan you would repay ~700 a month and then ~1000 a month from months 24-84 or whatever the loan period was.
I think the bit you missed was
Look at that sentence carefully. Did you perhaps read it as
I think the problem here is that people have read so much negative stuff that they can't believe anyone with anything positive to say. There are a few that have graduated recently into their dream jobs with a very respectable airline after a short wait in the hold pool. That's not to say it will continue - although I hope it will.
He (or she) has stated before that he has no connection to CTC Aviation other than to have flown with CTC Graduates in airline cadetship positions. Anything he has said was information that had been passed on to him either secondhand or perhaps was read some time ago. I never remember seeing him claim to be an authority but I suppose that assumption was made because he has contributed a lot. There are very few graduates with placements that post on this section of pprune so any info from the other side had always been greatly appreciated.
The figures he quotes were accurate at the time I started training and had been for some time, they had only recently changed. I believe an increase in late 2011 to 21000 NZD for the foundation course and then the recent increase (I don't know when). Any cadet that would have graduated up until now would have paid the old prices. Your post talks about the debt costs were you to take out a loan. Nobody is forcing you to borrow money to take this course, that is up to the individuals circumstances. Different loans may have different rates and the figures given were the basic cost of the course. I am not entirely sure but I think the majority on the course don't go through BBVA and certainly not for the total course cost. Any personal savings would seriously reduce the total debt accrued.
To update your figures, insurance is around £1000 for 28 months or until type rating is complete (and a £50 supplement if you want to go skiing in New Zealand
). The course isn't going to happen in 14 months, 18 is typical but I hear that recent groups are facing delays due to various reasons. I was told to set aside 10k for living costs to cover the duration.As I understand, the only airline that asks for a contribution to the type rating is Easyjet/Flexicrew which isn't most of the partner airlines (albeit the majority of cadets will end up taking this route). Type ratings cost money and to cover it, you will be bonded to the airline for a number of years. The amount owed for the type rating will slowly reduce over that period. It isn't money that you will have to borrow up front unless you go to Ryanair etc. Therefore you wont be making loan repayments as such or accruing interest. The figures I saw (some time ago) suggested that between month 18-24, based on an 80k loan you would repay ~700 a month and then ~1000 a month from months 24-84 or whatever the loan period was.
I think the bit you missed was
the figures I have seen are around ...
This is the exact cost of the course, not a penny more .... Sign up today and I get a free parker pen
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Bealzebub, How about you get your facts straight before you post with this self appointed authority that you seem to think you have? I am sorry to come across strongly but I'm starting to find your posting either deluded, uninformed or perhaps biased for some reason
Anyway back to your dissection...
Using the following link (which is all you'd needed to have done to avoid posting rubbish):
http://www.ctcwings.com/uploads/CTC_...flet_Oct12.pdf
Wings Cadets pay:
£69000 for course fees plus another 33000NZD for the foundation course - that's £18300 at current exchange rates. That's already £87300.
http://www.ctcwings.com/uploads/CTC_...flet_Oct12.pdf
Wings Cadets pay:
£69000 for course fees plus another 33000NZD for the foundation course - that's £18300 at current exchange rates. That's already £87300.
Items Excluded from the Course
• Selection fees;
• Initial Class 1 medical and renewal fees;
• Loss of medical and life insurances;
• Travel insurance as required by the New Zealand
Immigration Service;
• English language tests where applicable;
• Food and subsistence costs;
• Re-tests of flight skills tests;
• Re-tests of ATPL examinations.
i'd estimate these at about £1000 for 'fees', £200 for an insurance and how much for food and subsistence would you say? Let's be reasonable to you and set it low - during my time I needed about £100 a week at good exchange rates . This is for food, petrol, going out with everyone, calling home, internet etc. So over a 14 month minimum course (ours took a considerable amount longer) that's £6000.
• Selection fees;
• Initial Class 1 medical and renewal fees;
• Loss of medical and life insurances;
• Travel insurance as required by the New Zealand
Immigration Service;
• English language tests where applicable;
• Food and subsistence costs;
• Re-tests of flight skills tests;
• Re-tests of ATPL examinations.
i'd estimate these at about £1000 for 'fees', £200 for an insurance and how much for food and subsistence would you say? Let's be reasonable to you and set it low - during my time I needed about £100 a week at good exchange rates . This is for food, petrol, going out with everyone, calling home, internet etc. So over a 14 month minimum course (ours took a considerable amount longer) that's £6000.
There are other incidentals such as medicals, insurances and course equipment (around £3,000.)
Allowing for £2000 in capital costs (car share etc.) and £500 a month for living costs over 15 months
Allowing for £2000 in capital costs (car share etc.) and £500 a month for living costs over 15 months
So we're at £95000 already......before interest is added on. Let's say you were offered 3 % APR over 7 years - the total amount repayable will be £116838.
Your figure concerning interest is about right. That is £259 a month or so for the period of the loan assuming that length of loan and a constant interest rate.
Then CTC ask people to pay for a type rating on top with most airlines apart from your very fine, fair and reasonable establishment - another £12000 is it now?
So in fact your debt is £107000 or with that interest rate is £131500. Now throw in some delayed payments because you're only on £1200 a month for the first 8 months. And then throw in another 6 months delayed payments because there wasn't a type rating available. You're easily well over £140000 for the CTC scheme. On the Oxford/ Parc scheme with a £35000 TR, housing and a more expensive course you're well over £180000.
Then there are the CTC loan repayment schemes that we have in place with HMRC that enable the loan repayments to be deducted from income tax calculation save for a small witholding tax element based on the capital/interest elements of the loan. I confess that I omitted this enhancement from my original reply, whereby the taxman treats your loan repayments in a favourable manner, however given your indignation and obvious irritation at my "delusion, bias and uninformed posting" it probably would have done nothing to help your case. However......
And that interest calculator considers that you'll repay immediately from taking the loan - not 14,18 or 24 months down the line. You're easily looking at £1800 a month repayments over a 7 year time period. That's £28000 a year you need to earn to service the loan.
So when you say:
Let us take your following post apart, piece by piece.
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The mathematics in your post don't warrant any other reply than you're wrong and they don't work for someone with a loan. I don't know about the BBVA loan as mine is with HSBC. I'm sure if you've borrowed the money from a family member the financial side is far less relevant, worrying and inflexible. The interest on the bank loans IS very much part of the cost for those that have them.
Listen, you are possibly still in the honeymoon period/ eternally grateful to bealzebub for giving you a job at MON. That is completely understandable - the job is a pleasure and MON have been extremely fair in their recruitment policy - I'm not knocking them. What's more if you do not need/ did not need to borrow the money from the bank then you're in a fortunate position that many of my era were not in - we wouldn't possibly begrudge you but appreciate the load and real cost to us - we probably make up a bulk of the moaners!
As for being rude - I did apologise at the start if I was being strong - I was more trying to be direct. I find his posts have a touch of tunnel vision about them (edit to say that in my opinion you proved my point with your last post). Please don't take offence.
The figures I have quoted give a good idea of the real cost and explain to bealzebub how it's possible some are in debt to the tune if £180k. He rather abruptly shot someone down for saying such a thing.
I've said my piece - sorry for bring perhaps a bit abrasive, I'm glad you're happy with your lot.
P.S. My foundation course cost just under £3000. That's inflation!
Listen, you are possibly still in the honeymoon period/ eternally grateful to bealzebub for giving you a job at MON. That is completely understandable - the job is a pleasure and MON have been extremely fair in their recruitment policy - I'm not knocking them. What's more if you do not need/ did not need to borrow the money from the bank then you're in a fortunate position that many of my era were not in - we wouldn't possibly begrudge you but appreciate the load and real cost to us - we probably make up a bulk of the moaners!
As for being rude - I did apologise at the start if I was being strong - I was more trying to be direct. I find his posts have a touch of tunnel vision about them (edit to say that in my opinion you proved my point with your last post). Please don't take offence.
The figures I have quoted give a good idea of the real cost and explain to bealzebub how it's possible some are in debt to the tune if £180k. He rather abruptly shot someone down for saying such a thing.
I've said my piece - sorry for bring perhaps a bit abrasive, I'm glad you're happy with your lot.
P.S. My foundation course cost just under £3000. That's inflation!
Last edited by WhyByFlier; 12th Mar 2013 at 18:42.
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Ladies & Gentlemen We seem to be missing the point. Which ever way we do the calculations there will be a significant debt in incurred. I would imagine we can all agree this will be a six figure sum. This loan will be secured probably against a parents property.
The new contract offered to the cadets at EZY requires two years on agency pay a further two years on part time pay followed by a possibility to earn a current F/O salary. This is another significant saving for the company yet due to there financial sitations they have virtually all agreed to sign up to the deal.
These ambitious career minded guys and girls have been left a future of low pay. poor living standards. Financial burden that failure to pay the loan could result in there parents losing th roof over there head.
My objective is to ensure that anyone wanting to follow into there footsteps does so with all the relavent facts.
The Airline industry is in crisis, Flybe, Virgin as well as many other companies are struggling to survive. there are many unempolyed pilots,with many others joining the dole queue.
The only airlines left in europe will be BA/Iberia, Lufthansa, KLM/Airfrance, Easyjet and Ryan Air sais MO.
The new contract offered to the cadets at EZY requires two years on agency pay a further two years on part time pay followed by a possibility to earn a current F/O salary. This is another significant saving for the company yet due to there financial sitations they have virtually all agreed to sign up to the deal.
These ambitious career minded guys and girls have been left a future of low pay. poor living standards. Financial burden that failure to pay the loan could result in there parents losing th roof over there head.
My objective is to ensure that anyone wanting to follow into there footsteps does so with all the relavent facts.
The Airline industry is in crisis, Flybe, Virgin as well as many other companies are struggling to survive. there are many unempolyed pilots,with many others joining the dole queue.
The only airlines left in europe will be BA/Iberia, Lufthansa, KLM/Airfrance, Easyjet and Ryan Air sais MO.
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My objective is to ensure that anyone wanting to follow into there footsteps does so with all the relavent facts.
The only airlines left in europe will be BA/Iberia, Lufthansa, KLM/Airfrance, Easyjet and Ryan Air sais MO.
This is a wanabees forum. A forum for people wanting to become professional pilots. It is a very difficult industry to break into. It is an industry that comes with a very expensive price tag if you want a shot at the fasttrack programmes. It is very expensive in any event. The attrition rate is high, and the risks are both real and substantial. There are no end of people prepared to point them out.
CTC is one of the major FTO's who do supply ab-initio pilots into these fasttrack cadet programmes. That is what this particular thread is about, and indeed how it is titled. However bad the terms and conditions at certain carriers may be, or however many unemployed pilots might be out there, or whatever the levels of debt may or not be assumed, the purpose of the thread is to provide information. Some of that will be accurate, and some of it won't. It is up to people to filter out what they want from here, and then take it somewhere else and filter it again and again. No matter how many filters they do apply, at the end of the day there will be no guarantees and it will still be a case of rolling the dice.
I would suggest that is the point, and I don't think too many people are actually unaware of it.