Bealzebub, How about you get your facts straight before you post with this self appointed authority that you seem to think you have? I am sorry to come across strongly but I'm starting to find your posting either deluded, uninformed or perhaps biased for some reason
Sure, lets do that. Firstly lets start by putting your haughty indignation back into your pocket. I don't have an authority simply the numbers. They are neither deluded, uninformed or biased. They are representative of cadets that have come online (with us) in the last 12 months. Although the costs may well have increased recently (they usually do,) the reply was given in response to a comment about debts of £180,000 or some such figure, that was clearly exaggerated.
Anyway back to your dissection...
Using the following link (which is all you'd needed to have done to avoid posting rubbish):
http://www.ctcwings.com/uploads/CTC_...flet_Oct12.pdf
Wings Cadets pay:
£69000 for course fees plus another 33000NZD for the foundation course - that's £18300 at current exchange rates. That's already £87300.
The cadets coming through to us have paid around $19,000 for their foundation courses at rates ranging from £1= NZ$1.85 to around $2.07. I am happy to accept you doing the maths, but my figure of £10,000 seemed quite reasonable. No doubt the next set of graduates will find their total figures higher, but again if you follow the thread you will see that we were discussing the costs of those who have recently graduated. A point you seemed to have missed?
Items Excluded from the Course
• Selection fees;
• Initial Class 1 medical and renewal fees;
• Loss of medical and life insurances;
• Travel insurance as required by the New Zealand
Immigration Service;
• English language tests where applicable;
• Food and subsistence costs;
• Re-tests of flight skills tests;
• Re-tests of ATPL examinations.
i'd estimate these at about £1000 for 'fees', £200 for an insurance and how much for food and subsistence would you say? Let's be reasonable to you and set it low - during my time I needed about £100 a week at good exchange rates . This is for food, petrol, going out with everyone, calling home, internet etc. So over a 14 month minimum course (ours took a considerable amount longer) that's £6000.
I gave a figure of:
There are other incidentals such as medicals, insurances and course equipment (around £3,000.)
Allowing for £2000 in capital costs (car share etc.) and £500 a month for living costs over 15 months
That is £12,500 or more than double your figure of £6,000.
So we're at £95000 already......before interest is added on. Let's say you were offered 3 % APR over 7 years - the total amount repayable will be £116838.
My figures which again were for recently placed graduates (on lower foundation course costs) were at £91,500 at this point. Even allowing for your misunderstanding of the contextual timeline of the posting it still isn't too far adrift at around £3,500 is it?
Your figure concerning interest is about right. That is £259 a month or so for the period of the loan assuming that length of loan and a constant interest rate.
Then CTC ask people to pay for a type rating on top with most airlines apart from your very fine, fair and reasonable establishment - another £12000 is it now?
I am sure it varies, but as you point out the response referred to my "very fine, fair and reasonable establishment" so the challenge is redundant.
So in fact your debt is £107000 or with that interest rate is £131500. Now throw in some delayed payments because you're only on £1200 a month for the first 8 months. And then throw in another 6 months delayed payments because there wasn't a type rating available. You're easily well over £140000 for the CTC scheme. On the Oxford/ Parc scheme with a £35000 TR, housing and a more expensive course you're well over £180000.
No it is not a
fact. Your debt may well be this figure, but I stand by the figures that I gave for all the reasons that I gave. Our cadets are not on £1200 a month for the first 8 months. They receive this sum by way of a subsistance from their own bonds to APL for this period. In addition they receive training allowances, flight pay, sector pay and any other duty allowances. They also receive their type ratings on a reducing bond basis. Were they not to be offered employment contracts at the conclusion of their placements these costs would be written off! Zilch.
Then there are the CTC loan repayment schemes that we have in place with HMRC that enable the loan repayments to be deducted from income tax calculation save for a small witholding tax element based on the capital/interest elements of the loan. I confess that I omitted this enhancement from my original reply, whereby the taxman treats your loan repayments in a favourable manner, however given your indignation and obvious irritation at my "delusion, bias and uninformed posting" it probably would have done nothing to help your case. However......
And that interest calculator considers that you'll repay immediately from taking the loan - not 14,18 or 24 months down the line. You're easily looking at £1800 a month repayments over a 7 year time period. That's £28000 a year you need to earn to service the loan.
Our cadets were taking home around £2500+ per month during their placements. Within a year of commencing employment contracts, they are grossing (subject to fleet and base) around £60,000+ per annum. This is also subject to annual increments for a period of 21 years. Using
your figure of £28,000 p.a to service the loan, our cadets would actually repay their entire loan in less than 5 years, thereby reducing the total interest to about £7600. As the bulk of the loan would be set off for tax calculations, that would leave them around £32,000 a year gross. A liveable sum? Yes, I would have thought so, with a big bonus 5 year later when the loan repayments end and they are 5 increments up the scale and also looking at command possibilities at another 50% salary lift.
So when you say:
Let us take your following post apart, piece by piece.
I trust you now understand how flawed your dissection was. It always helps to read the post, understand the context, and argue the actual presentation rather than what you you want it to be. Particularly so when you have had a month to consider the reply.