Ryanair

[GGV]

skyflier737 you say

we can leave if we want to. It is NOT a sweatshop! Sweatshop workers have no choice.

As this is different from stories being circulated by pilots here and elsewhere I would appreciate some clarification.

The general picture that is painted of Ryanair is one where the trainee pays for a rating and has a period of quite low pay (sometimes no pay) afterwards. It does strike me that those pilots who have debts, often substantial, badly need employment to help them pay off their debts. Thus, if it is true that they are badly paid there is a "catch 22" situation where they cannot leave even if they want to. In addition, of course, there is the "line training bond", which makes it even more difficult to leave.

These stories were told to me by FR pilots. You seem to have had a different experience. Is this because of personal circumstances (e.g. lots of money!!) or it because you really can leave without difficulty? But, then again your probably have a contract which obliges you to give FR 3 months notice, which does not make finding a job easy. (I know several FR pilots interviewed for jobs with a particular airline that have concluded that this is hindering their employment).

So, when you put all of that together, I am not at all sure what you mean by "we can leave if we want to". Of course it is possible, but can you really (in the real world)?

[top jock]

there was a new guy who was up in PIK and was checked out after 34 sectors. when the paperwork was sent to EMA it was sent back saying he still had another 30 sectors to do. the base capt flew with him and also checked him out. when he got in touch with EMA to say he was fine he was told another 30 sectors as they dont have to pay them while they are still training. if you can stay away from here. it is a hell hole run by the devil

[sausagefingers]

I have been working for Ryanair for Two years now, and I know you hear all the bad stories about them on here, but it is a great place to work.
The flying and the experience is great. Yes you will struggle at first, but it does get better as time goes on.
Ok you could be a ppl or IR instructor earning enough just to live on, but in three years you will be earning the same, but at least in Ryanair in 3 years you will be able to live well.
The life style is ok I done 750 hrs from April to April, so not over worked.
If you want to get involved in the politics, and listen to all the big mouths, then yes you will end up depressed.
Go to work enjoy the day, go home or out with the crews and have a few beers and don't get involved with the politics ( It's Great)...
If you have no other choices their is no point sitting around letting all your rating expire. Go and get some money and get in the right hand seat of a 75 ton jet, get some experience then you will be turning jobs down.
Anyway good luck to you all, we have all been there.

[Carmoisine]

sausagefingers

don't get involved with the politics ( It's Great)...

That's it! Good man. You just bury your head right in the sand. Fortunately for you, some of us are going to fight to save any hopes for your future career.

Ok you could be a ppl or IR instructor earning enough just to live on, but in three years you will be earning the same, but at least in Ryanair in 3 years you will be able to live well.

So an instructor rating costs 30,000 Euro now does it. No? Well thats why you deserve to get paid the big bucks as an F/O.

As for the three year carrot. MOL stated publicly at a meeting at Hahn airport with the Pilots that they were going to pay the F/Os less in a new pay proposal but the carrot was a fast command.

What do you think is going to happen to the commands once you get there? You guessed it, they are the next for the slash hook.

I'm glad you "done" a few hours this year too bud. 750 you say? So about 100 hrs short of the promised hours which your projected earnings are base on? So you are about 4,000 Pounds net down due to low hours. Sounds great, where do I sign?

[CamelhAir]

Sausagefingers
Carmoisine replies very accurately. Extract your head from the sand - your position is the equivalent of having said head firmly planted up mickos rear. You know this as well as I do and you also know that if you want any sort of career and lifestyle quality you're gonna have to get off the fence at some point. So why put off the day any longer, now's the time for victory.
In case you actually don't see the point, lets try a simple game; you must correctly match options 1 and 2 with outcomes A and B. If you are right, jackpot! If not, kiss goodbye to your future.

Option 1) Stick your head in the sand, ignore all those silly boys with their silly politics, pwetend all those meanies are talking wubbish, its all gonna be ok, that nice Mr o'leary weally means well, he never bweaks his pwomises.

Option 2) Engage in the various on-going processes designed to protect and improve your interests. It takes little time and effort and is merely common sense.

Outcome A) Your career earnings (regardless of the airline you are with) continue to significantly decline. You will never gain a modicum of control over your life. As a captain you will earn much less than FO's in most other places. You will retire poor, very very poor. You will never be respected.

Outcome B) Respect, significantly enhanced career earnings. A decent lifestyle, professional and personal well-being. A long-term stable, rewarding and prosperous career.

Answers on a postcard.

[fly now]

Are U Crazyyyyy?????????????????

.....ARE YOU CRAZY??????????????????
I have been working for them more thAn 2 years!!! and the last thing I wanna say it is that they are great!!!
It is not a nice company at all!!! they treat people like ****!!!!!!!
and you shoul know!!!!
It s horrible to work for them, and the salary it s not good like they say!!!
It s not correct to pay your typer. at all, but I did to start !!!
then You have to pay for yOur uniform, tie, wing, stripes, medical, hotels, parking at airports, and even water on board.
In the crew room you cannot even recharge your mobile battery, if you are low on it.
You fly 5 days in a row as an idiot, and after an early you are destroyed!!!!!!!!!! MORE THAN 16 HOURS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!PER DAY!!!!!!
plus no insurance!!! no pension... nothing!!!
You are a number and you have noT the right to ask !!! you have just to say yes..yes...and pay!!!!!!!!!!
what about if you are sick???
they clearly tell you that they need numbers and you gonna be fired!!!!
Why do you think they have legal cases all around europe???
GUYS STAY AWAY FROM THEM!!!!
DO NOT GO THERE!!!! THERE ARE OTHER COMPANIES!!!!
DO NOT MAKE THE MISTAKE I DID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I KNOW THAT WE ALL NEED EXPERIENCE AND HOURS!!!, BUT THINK BEFORE!!!!!
BETTER TO WAIT THAN PAY WITHOUT RESPECT, AND SOMETIME NOT EVEN A JOB!!!!!!!!!!!
IT S DISGUSTING...BETTER TO FLY WITH A CITATION THAN WITH THEM!!!!
I HAVE BEEN THERE AND IT S NOT A COMPANY!!!
AND YOU : YOU SHOULD WAKE UP AND UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE COMPANIES IN THE WORLD !!! NOT THEM...
I AM VERY SAD THAT THERE ARE STILL PERSONS THEY THINK THEY ARE FINE!!!!
U ARE CRAZY!!!!!!!!
MAKE THE HOURS AND QUIT!!!!!!!!!!! AS FAST AS YOU CAN!!!
GOOD LUCK TO ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TolTol]

Agree with everything fly now says. The company sucks to work for. Long long hours, no social life, no life at all. Cant get the annual leave I want so as to go on holidays with my friends.

My advice is not to have your head in the clouds thinking you'd love to fly big jets. At the end of the day its just a job, more to life.

[flying desi]

Dear Everyone,

I`ve been reading about ryanair for so long & one thing I cant understand.. If you are supposed to pay for ur hotel while ur actualy at work or in another country because of ur work then how can u pay for the hotels for example the first year where u only get paid approx 1000 euro`s a month ? Apart from that.. What happens in the 2nd and 3rd year that you are working for ryanair? Does the pay go up like we all are told ? and if not then how much approx do they pay you ?

A simple calculation shows that if you have to pay the hotel than that would mean you actualy have to get money from the bank just to survive. The costs are much higher than ur income

[potkettleblack]

Clay you will be lucky to earn 20k in your first year. More like 800-1000 euros per month. A friend of mine has been in for over a year and is now on 1,200 euros per month on average.

Ignore the top salaries quoted on their website. You will NEVER earn that amount. MOL is constantly revising the T&C's. He is publicly quoted as saying he wants to reduce captains salaries to 65,000 euros on average. Each and every year he plays with smoke and mirrors to give what appears to be an increase when in fact it is a reduction.

[Turkish777]

Fly now

This isnt a dig or pop at you, but why dont you just leave the company if its that bad. Why are you still there after two years? All the guys I know which havent liked the company have just walked into Easyjet. Surely someone type rated with at least a 1000 hours on type (Im assuming) could find at job any where in this day and age? Just curious why you are still there? Maybe the hostees are fit...

[potkettleblack]

Sometimes leaving isn't as easy as everyone thinks. Being based near home or friends and family, stability of rosters, being near command and having to put together a dreaded CV all conspire to keep people where they are even if the grass is greener. Do you remember how much work is required to prepare for interviews? I spent 3 weeks researching two companies that I interviewed with recently and fortunately I didn't have to go to work. Try doing that on a 5 on 2 off (more than likely finishing on a late) or whatever roster.

Also there are so many Ryanair pilots that not all airlines are going to take them regardless of their jet time. The likes of Easy et al don't want to end up with a whole segment of their workforce being ex FR with roughly the same hours. Hence they mix it up a bit with CTC and other direct entry guys with differing backgrounds, cultures etc etc. I have no idea about the market for our mate in Rome and who is hiring or if the grass is in fact greener. He isn't going to head off and fly a turbo prop after being in a 737 after all. Plus he has the costs of the type rating to recoup and with so many other operators wanting you to part with money he might be loath to do so again.

Sometimes its better to stay in and try and hope that the T&C's change although I think we all know that with Ryanair that isn't going to happen quickly if at all.

[Turkish777]

Oh well but atleast they give you the chance to go from a piston engine to the right hand seat of a 737-8 with low hours. I have an interview with them shortly and I respect that at least they are willing to give me that chance unlike almost every other Airline out there. I think everyone forgets what they were doing before Ryan Air gave them the opportunity to fly...short memories and gratitude comes to mind...

Theres a lot worse job out there..try a days scaffolding in the winter months for a day or two....not that im a scaffolder, I would probably last a day...

[potkettleblack]

True to an extent that they have given a lot of people their first starts.

BUT don't forget there are a number of other jet operators that take on low hour wannabees. BMI, Jet2, Thomsonfly, BACON are 4 that spring to mind without even having to think to hard. Then there are the likes of Easy, Monarch etc if you go down the CTC wings route. There are others such as BA if you went to the right school (ie: Oxford, Jerez). All of the above would have T&C's and treat their staff in a manner unaccustomed to the likes of Ryanair management.

All those opportunities and we didn't even have to discuss the turbo prop market where there are loads of opportunities given that so many guys and gals are moving onwards and upwards to the jets leaving spaces free for first starters.

[potkettleblack]

And then there are the costs of accommodating yourself in Amsterdam or Stockholm whilst you do the training plus flights etc. Then you are more than likely going to be put somewhere like Stansted or Prestwick for line training. The length of this is all subject to demand and the availability of training captains. Then you will be sent off to your base. I know for EU guys from further afield that they find the costs of living in places like the UK and Ireland horrendous. A cheap B&B at even £20-30 a night soon adds up and leaves no change from your monthly salary. The stories of FR pilots living in cars might be true afterall eh?

[T668BFJ]

The rumours about FO's s;eeping in cars are true, and I have seen it.

So anyone coonsidering taking a FO job with RYR, either needs to have a short trip to the funny farm, or, is a true believer of living off the land, because you will have to steal seeds and grow your own food off the water you steal from the crew room, if its not contaminated.

[hard_landing]

I have a mate flying for FR and coming to the end of his line training..he's paid 900 quid per month after tax!! 900 quid!! I earn more throwing bags into the back of planes!!!

BUT....he is getting paid to fly a brand new 737-800 (however low it is!!)

I am definitely in the "shouldn't pay for a type rating" group.....but, hand on heart, if I had 20k and was offered a job on the condition I paid for a type rating....i would find it difficult to tell them to "@#&$ off and stick your job". At the end of the day, it's down to the individuals circumstances....and if they want to pay the money then good luck to them

[CamelhAir]

I respect that at least they are willing to give me that chance

WRONG!!! YOU are giving THEM a chance at your services. You are doing them a favour by willing to provide your services to make them profits. They are not providing you with a service. The company utilises your services to provide the passengers with a service.
That's how it works in any other industry, but not, it seems, in the warped world of wannabe pilots. You wannabes seriously need to re-assess who's doing whom favours with employment. Until you realise that you are the ones providing the service, not the airline, you will continue to be exploited and ridden and will continue to drag the rest of us down.
When that mind-set is changed, you may then expect something other than mediocrity and worse for your career, which, as it stands is about all you can expect.

[Turkish777]

So what are our options CamelhAir? they are limited...Should I spend a few more thousand on a FI rating and sit in the RHS of a 152 for two years and then be tolds SEP is worthless...

Ive tried volunteer flying at Duxford and even they turned me down.. Turbo prop jobs are few and far between, theres is over a thousand of us out there. I have tried for over tens month to achive a job with out lining FR's pockets but I have failed. Its an expensive hour builder but like most of the cadets it seems one of the only ways into this money making industry.

But overall I do agree with your post but we are stuck between a rock and a hard plate and not many people can afford to give up when they have spent all of there savings, equity etc..

And CTC seems like aviations version of the X-Factor I did try that route.

[lgw_warrior]

ok,as an outsider looking in,it seems Ryanair has lots of issues,non of which i am saying dont exsist,i have friends that work in Ryanair and so get to hear much of the things that go on,indeed paying for a rating,the getting paid little for the first few months is pretty bad,looking back over previous replies,the chap made to do more training sectors after being signed off to save money!?well thats just ridiculous!

another interesting fact mentioned earlier,jobs with fly be,monarch,BA etc if you have been to the "right school",its been a while but im guessing about £70k all in for PPL/CPL/IR/MCC etc?I have a friend who managed to complete all this at various different schools,wherever it was cheaper to do each part,it ended up costing about £32k in total + Ryan type rating,£20k + plus bit more for extras, £10k, so about £62k,straight into a 737-800,crap pay for the first six months,then not so bad pay.again im not condoning what they are doing,but its just another way of looking at things if your out there and looking for your first job.

the warrior

[SinBin]

Warrior are you saying that if you don't go to the right school you can only go to FR? I went to the 'wrong' school and I'm certainly not going to get my arse torn by MOL!

The best part is that I don't have to pay for a type rating and the airline I'm joining, which is one of the ones mentioned by a prevous poster, pay me to do it instead. MOL is ruining everything and it's going to bite him in the arse one of these days when his greed cause people to vote with their feet. Listen to the guys on this thread who are there, to work there seems madness considering who else you can work for. It's not all rosy in other airlines, but at least they try to look after their pilots.