Pilot shortages, News Events, And What Are The Effects On Airline Jobs?
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wannabes would do well to listen to WWW as he has pretty much hit the nail on the head! I remember when I started browsing these forums in summer 1999 he was dispensing advice even then and most of it made a lot of sense!
Cheers.
Cheers.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: OZ
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From what I've seen in my time there is a pilot shortage. There are plenty of guys who can quote AIP, CAO's and the like, but can't or refuse to fly if it is a bit windy, or there is rain forcast!!
Victums of the sausage factories that Uni's run these days
What happend to stick and rudder???
Booya
Victums of the sausage factories that Uni's run these days
What happend to stick and rudder???
Booya
Oh I'm still here. Older, no wiser and just as cynical. 
WWW
WWW
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Suffolk UK
Posts: 4,927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scroggs,
But wouldn't a 1500hr SEP pilot be an instructor, does an instructor not operate to strict time constraints, have to make pivotal decisions, not to mention being under constant scrutiny by their employer? Mybe I'm naive
How would you regard the GAPAN test in terms of qualative assemessment for self-sponsored modular chaps/chapesses.
But wouldn't a 1500hr SEP pilot be an instructor, does an instructor not operate to strict time constraints, have to make pivotal decisions, not to mention being under constant scrutiny by their employer? Mybe I'm naive
How would you regard the GAPAN test in terms of qualative assemessment for self-sponsored modular chaps/chapesses.
The GAPAN aptitude testing is an excellent method of obtaining an objective opinion on one's aptitude, and should be undertaken by every wannabe who is not going through a mentored, pre-assessed course. However, having experienced a day with them as a guest assessor, I would take some of their post-interview advice with a large pinch of salt. If what I saw is anything to go by (and one day is a woefully short time in which to judge), they seem to have a preponderance of retired legacy airline captains who display a limited knowledge of the modern flying training business and the available opportunities for new pilots. I frequently found myself listening to advice being given that was factually incorrect, and which had a definite bias toward persuading people to aim for BA. In my not-so-humble opinion (
) there is better, and more accurate, advice available here...Scroggs
In most schools a low houred FI will be left to dangle in the wind and get on with it and as long as he doesn't (or his student doesn't) crash then that will be the total sum of his annual evaluation. They may or may not go on to work for a large FTO and come under the auspices of a rigorous Standards Department.
But if they don't then there are plenty of jobs out there, in Blackpool, Southend, Aberdeen, Plymouth, Prestwick, Farnborough, Bournemouth or Norwich or indeed Little Piddlington In The Mist. Jobs which the bulk of Integrated students wouldn't even know how to apply for. You won't be on a Boeing or and Airbus or a Jet. But as your Modular training only cost you £48,000 you can afford a few years on £16,000 as a co-pilot in a small commercial outfit rather than a £26,000 co-pilot with a £78,000 debt flying a jet for a household name airline.
You might not get into the RAF.
You might not get into an airline sponsorship.
You might not get into a CTC type scheme.
But like me you might still self sponsor your way through the Modular route and become a debt free Captain on a modern jet before you are 30. It can be done.
Good luck,
WWW
But if they don't then there are plenty of jobs out there, in Blackpool, Southend, Aberdeen, Plymouth, Prestwick, Farnborough, Bournemouth or Norwich or indeed Little Piddlington In The Mist. Jobs which the bulk of Integrated students wouldn't even know how to apply for. You won't be on a Boeing or and Airbus or a Jet. But as your Modular training only cost you £48,000 you can afford a few years on £16,000 as a co-pilot in a small commercial outfit rather than a £26,000 co-pilot with a £78,000 debt flying a jet for a household name airline.
You might not get into the RAF.
You might not get into an airline sponsorship.
You might not get into a CTC type scheme.
But like me you might still self sponsor your way through the Modular route and become a debt free Captain on a modern jet before you are 30. It can be done.
Good luck,
WWW
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: between a rock and a hard place
Posts: 218
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spanner in the Works!!
Dear All,
I have read with some interest the discussion between modular and integrated, selected v's self funded and non selected.
Anyway I would like to throw a spanner in the works.....How about a self sponsored who has passed a very rigorous pilot selection procedure!
How would an airline (big or small) view an ex-military Officer in his mid 30's who was selected as a Pilot in the armed forces(and therefore passed all aptitude tests and an arguably harder selection process then someone for an integrated course) passed all elements of fixed wing training (Grading and JEFTS) but failed rotary training (because helicopters just arn't for some people!) then self sponsored his way to a fATPL??? Not that that person is me of course!!!! Hmmmm
Any airline recruiters or olds or bolds care to comment?
VMT
MFWF
I have read with some interest the discussion between modular and integrated, selected v's self funded and non selected.
Anyway I would like to throw a spanner in the works.....How about a self sponsored who has passed a very rigorous pilot selection procedure!
How would an airline (big or small) view an ex-military Officer in his mid 30's who was selected as a Pilot in the armed forces(and therefore passed all aptitude tests and an arguably harder selection process then someone for an integrated course) passed all elements of fixed wing training (Grading and JEFTS) but failed rotary training (because helicopters just arn't for some people!) then self sponsored his way to a fATPL??? Not that that person is me of course!!!! Hmmmm
Any airline recruiters or olds or bolds care to comment?
VMT
MFWF
Last edited by mustflywillfly; 10th Oct 2006 at 14:34. Reason: there are no old and bolds!! changed to or...
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,091
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately, it doesn't matter.
The bigger, household name airlines, do not care what you did before you qualified. They might spout stuff about being commercially aware, but that's not true either.
There are simple requirements, which are:
- you meet a certain age demographic
- you went to a certain school
- you reached/ or are predicted to reach a certain standard when training
- you reach the required standard at the airlines selection board/interview
If you don't have the above, then you will find contacts being the next best way in. For the others, there is a lottery of sending CVs, visiting, applying etc.
The bigger, household name airlines, do not care what you did before you qualified. They might spout stuff about being commercially aware, but that's not true either.
There are simple requirements, which are:
- you meet a certain age demographic
- you went to a certain school
- you reached/ or are predicted to reach a certain standard when training
- you reach the required standard at the airlines selection board/interview
If you don't have the above, then you will find contacts being the next best way in. For the others, there is a lottery of sending CVs, visiting, applying etc.
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Suffolk UK
Posts: 4,927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cesco The aptitude testing done by the organisations you mention is fine - some use the same or similar procedures as GAPAN. I have no doubt that the objective assessment is just as valid as GAPAN's. The advice you receive, as at GAPAN, will depend on the knowledge and independence of the assessor. I would hope that the advice would be entirely uninfluenced by the organisation's position as an FTO and contractor to certain airlines, but forgive me if I'm slightly sceptical about this!
MFWF, if you are self-sponsored and have not undertaken any selection procedure at the start of your ATPL training, you potentially fall into the trap I described earlier. Your military service may have an influence at some companies, particularly if the chief pilot or head of recruiting is ex-military, but I wouldn't put too much weight on that.
As WWW says, the market for the self-sponsored non-selected pilot is still healthy, though the route you may have to take may not involve 737s at 200 hours! Flight instruction is a worthy and worthwhile way of gaining hours and experience, but choose your employer carefully. I have serious doubts that the 'self-improver' route will continue in anything like its present proportion of wannabes in the medium term, but remember I am just speculating. Nothing has changed as yet.
Scroggs
MFWF, if you are self-sponsored and have not undertaken any selection procedure at the start of your ATPL training, you potentially fall into the trap I described earlier. Your military service may have an influence at some companies, particularly if the chief pilot or head of recruiting is ex-military, but I wouldn't put too much weight on that.
As WWW says, the market for the self-sponsored non-selected pilot is still healthy, though the route you may have to take may not involve 737s at 200 hours! Flight instruction is a worthy and worthwhile way of gaining hours and experience, but choose your employer carefully. I have serious doubts that the 'self-improver' route will continue in anything like its present proportion of wannabes in the medium term, but remember I am just speculating. Nothing has changed as yet.
Scroggs
PPRuNe Handmaiden
I would never give up on the non integrated route. After all, CTC isn't integrated. 
Any way, they are in a slightly different category.
Modular won't go away. Many operators are looking for pilots that haven't been through a factory. The most interesting jobs aren't usually advertised, you do have to seek them out. Use a bit of initiative and find them.
Always remember that airlines have a quota set by the UK CAA of low houred pilots to experienced pilots. Therefore, if airline X takes most of it's low houred guys from eg CTC etc, then by all means have a go but look at that airline once you have some experience.
How you get that experience and what that experience consists of is up to you. Instruct, drop parachutists, night freight, Africa, charter work. None of this will fall into your lap. You'll have to chase it down.
Good luck.
Any way, they are in a slightly different category.
Modular won't go away. Many operators are looking for pilots that haven't been through a factory. The most interesting jobs aren't usually advertised, you do have to seek them out. Use a bit of initiative and find them.
Always remember that airlines have a quota set by the UK CAA of low houred pilots to experienced pilots. Therefore, if airline X takes most of it's low houred guys from eg CTC etc, then by all means have a go but look at that airline once you have some experience.
How you get that experience and what that experience consists of is up to you. Instruct, drop parachutists, night freight, Africa, charter work. None of this will fall into your lap. You'll have to chase it down.
Good luck.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 724
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by wingbar
but it does make one think that its a rather cheap option for the airline concerned
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: southeast
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'....And a lot of airlines would agree with me.'
And I would suggest, respectfully, that many would not!
Strange to think that old-fashioned handling skills are still valued by some operators and I would venture to suggest that for most of us mere 'mortals', said skills develop through repeated practice - i.e. after more than c200 hrs.
'Qualitative selection procedure' - does not the passing of PPL/CPL/MEIR flight tests plus the ATPL writtens not constitute a form of valid selection in itself???????????? And don't forget, the candidate then has to pass the airline's own selection process which as most of us know full well, will expose any flying weaknesses most cruelly.
In a nutshell what I am really saying is this - both routes (integrated and modular) are valid means of obtaining a commercial pilot's job. Our own experiences, finances, prejuidices etc etc might lead us to favour one route or the other but can we HONESTLY say that one is superior to the other? Can anyone? At the end of the day, if you pass selection for your chosen employer that's all that matters - how you obtained the necessary skill levels is quite frankly, immaterial..................
And I would suggest, respectfully, that many would not!
Strange to think that old-fashioned handling skills are still valued by some operators and I would venture to suggest that for most of us mere 'mortals', said skills develop through repeated practice - i.e. after more than c200 hrs.
'Qualitative selection procedure' - does not the passing of PPL/CPL/MEIR flight tests plus the ATPL writtens not constitute a form of valid selection in itself???????????? And don't forget, the candidate then has to pass the airline's own selection process which as most of us know full well, will expose any flying weaknesses most cruelly.
In a nutshell what I am really saying is this - both routes (integrated and modular) are valid means of obtaining a commercial pilot's job. Our own experiences, finances, prejuidices etc etc might lead us to favour one route or the other but can we HONESTLY say that one is superior to the other? Can anyone? At the end of the day, if you pass selection for your chosen employer that's all that matters - how you obtained the necessary skill levels is quite frankly, immaterial..................
Join Date: May 2000
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 724
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In which case, open your eyes, as though there may be many small operators who are happy to take on people under the self-improver regime, the few, large operators who offer the vast majority of jobs available think exactly as scroggs suggests.
The thinking is "training risk, training risk, training risk" - who can cope under high pressure in a time-limited environment, with spare capacity available. They could not care less if you have achieved those skills through repeated practice - they was to know if you have those skills and can pick them up at the drop of a hat - do you hold the innate ability to copy without repeated practice. Flying skills alone are not enough - capacity, intelligence, flexibility, teamwork are all skills not readily apparent from the holding of the licence.
The mere holding of a licence does not demonstrate the manner in which is was achieved - i.e. whether the individual has demonstrated an ability to pick up, build upon, and improve skills in an extremely limited space of time. That is the sole reason why airline are very concerned about HOW a licence was acquired.
Yes, a sim check does weed people out, however if you know that a certain product from some schools produces what you want, why bother weeding through the remainder of candidates at enormous time and expense for little reward?
Anyway, the MPL will put this debate to bed once and for all, as alluded to below.
The thinking is "training risk, training risk, training risk" - who can cope under high pressure in a time-limited environment, with spare capacity available. They could not care less if you have achieved those skills through repeated practice - they was to know if you have those skills and can pick them up at the drop of a hat - do you hold the innate ability to copy without repeated practice. Flying skills alone are not enough - capacity, intelligence, flexibility, teamwork are all skills not readily apparent from the holding of the licence.
The mere holding of a licence does not demonstrate the manner in which is was achieved - i.e. whether the individual has demonstrated an ability to pick up, build upon, and improve skills in an extremely limited space of time. That is the sole reason why airline are very concerned about HOW a licence was acquired.
Yes, a sim check does weed people out, however if you know that a certain product from some schools produces what you want, why bother weeding through the remainder of candidates at enormous time and expense for little reward?
Anyway, the MPL will put this debate to bed once and for all, as alluded to below.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: southeast
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just re-read my previous post and am struggling to work out what phrases/words might have provoked such an aggressive, patronising and dismissive response as yours, Lucifer.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 724
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am placing strong emphasis on my arguments, as I believe it is helpful to demostrate to wannabes the reality of the market, rather than encouraging people to undertake highly expensive training through means that are less likely to yield a job.
Why make life hard for oneself?
I hardly see how emphasising reality is patronising - you either agree or disagree with me - we are all adults.
Why make life hard for oneself?
I hardly see how emphasising reality is patronising - you either agree or disagree with me - we are all adults.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere In The South China Sea
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lucifer
Do you honestly believe wannabes will listen to you? really? I can imagine the thought process now, "I want to be a pilot, but I can only afford modular and the self improver route, but a man on a forum suggests not to do it for xxx reasons, and that I should save myself the bother, ok he must be right, I won't bother"
This isn't going to happen is it, you can type until your fingers are stumps but people are going to do it regardless of what is written here, I guess it's what we call life
Do you honestly believe wannabes will listen to you? really? I can imagine the thought process now, "I want to be a pilot, but I can only afford modular and the self improver route, but a man on a forum suggests not to do it for xxx reasons, and that I should save myself the bother, ok he must be right, I won't bother"
This isn't going to happen is it, you can type until your fingers are stumps but people are going to do it regardless of what is written here, I guess it's what we call life
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am really split on what to think of this whole debate. Going with the opinion of Scroggs / Lucifer, the essence of the debate is that airlines are taking pilots straight out of integrated training who have developed skills in a "high pressure time limited environment, with extra capacity available" In other words, a pilot with perhaps 250 ish hours, a new TR and JOC etc etc.
This notion is nonetheless very unfamiliar and unaccepted in other regions of the world (such as where I am working now - see location) Apart from squeezing the self improvers into such a corner that they have little to no chance of getting in with the major carriers, out here there is much impetus put on skills proved through actual flight experience. Granted you may have developed your basic skills with a highly reputable school and even have a TR but that still will not cut the grade. In a situation such as my own, my first 750hrs post CPL/ME/IR after qualifying was pretty hellish at times with a huge learning curve - flying middle weight piston twins around western Canada in a commercial op. Believe me, the weak pilots with poor decision skills and the inability to think outside the box are weeded out very quickly.
Just a life saver for those self improvers / instructors working in a small commercial ops...keep at it...
This notion is nonetheless very unfamiliar and unaccepted in other regions of the world (such as where I am working now - see location) Apart from squeezing the self improvers into such a corner that they have little to no chance of getting in with the major carriers, out here there is much impetus put on skills proved through actual flight experience. Granted you may have developed your basic skills with a highly reputable school and even have a TR but that still will not cut the grade. In a situation such as my own, my first 750hrs post CPL/ME/IR after qualifying was pretty hellish at times with a huge learning curve - flying middle weight piston twins around western Canada in a commercial op. Believe me, the weak pilots with poor decision skills and the inability to think outside the box are weeded out very quickly.
Just a life saver for those self improvers / instructors working in a small commercial ops...keep at it...
Join Date: May 2000
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 724
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes. Why else would people ask questions here?
Not everyone subscribes to the collective lemming-like mentality towards financial ruin. Quite frankly, if a wannabe's judgement is that they will train no matter what, with no consideration of that end market, then I would question their entire judgement as a person.
That does not equate to telling people not to bother - taking stock and only undertaking training when in a financially viable position to obtain the best training available for one's career aspirations, is what I advocate.
Finals19 I don't think the best way of training will ever be definitively answered - this is however the reality of the UK market.
I don't believe I have ever indidated my sex. What makes you assume I am male?!
Not everyone subscribes to the collective lemming-like mentality towards financial ruin. Quite frankly, if a wannabe's judgement is that they will train no matter what, with no consideration of that end market, then I would question their entire judgement as a person.
That does not equate to telling people not to bother - taking stock and only undertaking training when in a financially viable position to obtain the best training available for one's career aspirations, is what I advocate.
Finals19 I don't think the best way of training will ever be definitively answered - this is however the reality of the UK market.
I don't believe I have ever indidated my sex. What makes you assume I am male?!
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Cheltenham Spa
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lucifer,
Unfortunately, will be spot on whenthe MPL comes on-line, it will be a big massive change. It's heavily geared towards the national carriers and LCC's. Forget, the rest of the industry. "I mean who pays the bills round here?" - willie walsh et al...
So I predict a lot of the smaller commercial schools going bust and everybody else who can't afford the MPL route through Oxford (they have heavily invested for this - the only school to do so - funny that? ), will go abroad to train (no VAT) .
However, this could have weird affect of producing a further short fall for "real" pilots. The MPL (OAT) pilots will go to BA, etc.. and the "real" pilots will be taken by the small air taxis, regionals, private, fractional ownership operators. Which is great news, as every expert predicting a boom in private jet op's, due to security etc.. (see this weeks Flight).
May I have a Rant? Thanks.
The MPL is a conspiracy by the big operators to de-skill the pilot profession (like any other), therefore, reducing salaries and thus costs. It is an industry with shrinking yields and the only flexibility left is to reduce the "future" pilots wages. this will stop the shrinking and you will still be able to fly around Europe for £25 (Need to get Daily Express passwords, though).
What is BALPA doing? Are they that short sighted and really that busy producing flash videos regarding BA pensions that they cannot see their future membership being robbed of a reasonable income?
But then again "I'm all right jack" mentally of the baby boomers is predictable.
OPEN YOUR EYES!!
O
Unfortunately, will be spot on whenthe MPL comes on-line, it will be a big massive change. It's heavily geared towards the national carriers and LCC's. Forget, the rest of the industry. "I mean who pays the bills round here?" - willie walsh et al...
So I predict a lot of the smaller commercial schools going bust and everybody else who can't afford the MPL route through Oxford (they have heavily invested for this - the only school to do so - funny that? ), will go abroad to train (no VAT) .
However, this could have weird affect of producing a further short fall for "real" pilots. The MPL (OAT) pilots will go to BA, etc.. and the "real" pilots will be taken by the small air taxis, regionals, private, fractional ownership operators. Which is great news, as every expert predicting a boom in private jet op's, due to security etc.. (see this weeks Flight).
May I have a Rant? Thanks.
The MPL is a conspiracy by the big operators to de-skill the pilot profession (like any other), therefore, reducing salaries and thus costs. It is an industry with shrinking yields and the only flexibility left is to reduce the "future" pilots wages. this will stop the shrinking and you will still be able to fly around Europe for £25 (Need to get Daily Express passwords, though).
What is BALPA doing? Are they that short sighted and really that busy producing flash videos regarding BA pensions that they cannot see their future membership being robbed of a reasonable income?
But then again "I'm all right jack" mentally of the baby boomers is predictable.
OPEN YOUR EYES!!
O