Pilot shortages, News Events, And What Are The Effects On Airline Jobs?
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Canada
Age: 42
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilot shortage...
I want to open this question up to those pilots who have recently finished their flight training and HAVE got a job with a commercial airline company. Is there, in reality and not just on paper, a shortage of pilots. I ask cuz alot of ppl in this forum, replying to another post from a long time ago, are skeptical of it yet I have read numerous articles in newspaper but also pilots at the local airport.
Also, can someone give me a comparison of two Captains, being in a company for equal lengths of time but offset their time frames by like 10 or 20 yrs with respect to their salaries. Are airline pilots really getting paid significantly less compared to like 10 or so years ago? and by how much?
I'm not interested in becoming a pilot because of the money, although attracted if its not true, but I don't want to go out and spend 100,000 on schooling and make no more than 50,000/yr in 10 yrs. I understand there are dues to pay but is being a pilot really worth it if you have that kind of debt looming over you for 20 yrs like a mortgage.
thanks.
Also, can someone give me a comparison of two Captains, being in a company for equal lengths of time but offset their time frames by like 10 or 20 yrs with respect to their salaries. Are airline pilots really getting paid significantly less compared to like 10 or so years ago? and by how much?
I'm not interested in becoming a pilot because of the money, although attracted if its not true, but I don't want to go out and spend 100,000 on schooling and make no more than 50,000/yr in 10 yrs. I understand there are dues to pay but is being a pilot really worth it if you have that kind of debt looming over you for 20 yrs like a mortgage.
thanks.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sandpit
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wouldnt say there are a shortage of pilots, but a shortage of type specific pilots to fill the airlines needs. My company is like that. They are type specific, you must hold a type rating and so much time before you will be considered for a position.
I was flying with the chief pilot the other day and asked about how many applications they had for jobs. He said 20-30 phonecalls a day will come in, mostly with little or no airline experiance. Although there were still quite a few qualified guys on the books that could probably fill our needs for the next 18 months at least. Its filling the skipper positions that is the problem.
I believe this is similar all over the world. Rumour has it that EasyJet is planning a roadshow in my part of the world to lure some pilots for DEC spots. Im sure they could probably nick some guys for some SFO spots aswell providing the money is good enough!
The 'shortage of pilots' rumour is taken to broadly, for the reason I have stated above. I dont believe it applies to fresh faced 250 hour fATPL pilots. Think about it, how many JAR schools are there in the UK, Europe and rest of the world? LOADS. How many guys are passing their IR everyday? LOADS. How many out of work pilots are there? LOADS. The airlines are not buying aircraft quick enough to cater for all the pilots! If there was a 'shortage' of pilots, EVERYBODY would have a job. The airlines would be paying you to become a pilot. They would be paying for your rating. They would be competing to hire you over the next employer. Are the airlines knocking on your door? Speak to a fresh guy out of training in Australia and they will tell you what they think about the shortage of pilots.
I dont want to sound like a downer, but thats the reality, and you would be very nieve to think otherwise. These days you must REALLY REALLY want this gig. Be willing to go anywhere to get those first jobs, get those hours. I hedged my bets abroad, did some further training last year and got a job in June. Got my fATPL in august 2004 however. 2 years, flying crappy wee multi pistons (best time of my life though
), a turbine rating and a job with the FCO for a year to fund all the further training is what it took. There are jobs, but youve got to put yourself WAY out there to find them.
Could be an interesting thread if folks from parts of the world other then the UK get involved to see what they think about the 'pilot shortage'.
Cheers
DB
I was flying with the chief pilot the other day and asked about how many applications they had for jobs. He said 20-30 phonecalls a day will come in, mostly with little or no airline experiance. Although there were still quite a few qualified guys on the books that could probably fill our needs for the next 18 months at least. Its filling the skipper positions that is the problem.
I believe this is similar all over the world. Rumour has it that EasyJet is planning a roadshow in my part of the world to lure some pilots for DEC spots. Im sure they could probably nick some guys for some SFO spots aswell providing the money is good enough!
The 'shortage of pilots' rumour is taken to broadly, for the reason I have stated above. I dont believe it applies to fresh faced 250 hour fATPL pilots. Think about it, how many JAR schools are there in the UK, Europe and rest of the world? LOADS. How many guys are passing their IR everyday? LOADS. How many out of work pilots are there? LOADS. The airlines are not buying aircraft quick enough to cater for all the pilots! If there was a 'shortage' of pilots, EVERYBODY would have a job. The airlines would be paying you to become a pilot. They would be paying for your rating. They would be competing to hire you over the next employer. Are the airlines knocking on your door? Speak to a fresh guy out of training in Australia and they will tell you what they think about the shortage of pilots.
I dont want to sound like a downer, but thats the reality, and you would be very nieve to think otherwise. These days you must REALLY REALLY want this gig. Be willing to go anywhere to get those first jobs, get those hours. I hedged my bets abroad, did some further training last year and got a job in June. Got my fATPL in august 2004 however. 2 years, flying crappy wee multi pistons (best time of my life though
), a turbine rating and a job with the FCO for a year to fund all the further training is what it took. There are jobs, but youve got to put yourself WAY out there to find them.Could be an interesting thread if folks from parts of the world other then the UK get involved to see what they think about the 'pilot shortage'.
Cheers
DB
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Planet earth
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem is not only that you must have type but also the language barrier exists. You have to be able speak english but also, french, swedish, german, spanish etc.
Gives a lot of frustration.
grtz
Gives a lot of frustration.
grtz
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: greece
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am sorry to tell you that but if you wonder if it is worth being a pilot if you are not making more than 50000 a year,then i would suggest you not to follow this path,all pilots that i know dont care about money at least until they become captains and have families to take care of,so if you are not sure if its worth or not,this means you dont really love this job.For me being a pilot is worth every day of my life,just being able to watch the sunset at FL370 is the best thing for me in the world,take care.
Its not the sunset at 370 its the SUNRISE halfway across the Atlantic with three hours still to go, eyes full of sand, and a positioning bus-ride to home base followed by a long drive to my own bed !
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: EU
Posts: 961
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
when I did the ATPL exams in Gatwick, we were hundred of wanabees!class are fully loaded..., schools have a waiting list with thousand students ready to spend minimum 100'000 euro for the "dream job"
2 years after, I still don't have a job, but many requests from airlines telling me t/r +500h or nothing.
I was in an open show recently, and the recruiter was not interested by 300hours guys even with a type rating...they were looking for experimented FO.
2 years after, I still don't have a job, but many requests from airlines telling me t/r +500h or nothing.
I was in an open show recently, and the recruiter was not interested by 300hours guys even with a type rating...they were looking for experimented FO.
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Suffolk UK
Posts: 4,927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here we go again...
There is not now, there never has been, and there never will be a shortage of low-hour pilots. There are several times as many wannabes as there are jobs to employ them. If it were not so, companies would not be asking you to pay for type ratings etc. They can do that because they know you guys feel you have to gain an advantage any way you can, and so they exploit you.
There is a shortage, in some countries, of experienced jet pilots. However, in Western Europe the shortage is not yet acute despite easyJet's and Ryanair's voracious appetite for pilots. Hence pilot pay is still in a process of slow decline relative to other professions and the cost of living.
Your understanding of the way salaries work is flawed. While companies have been known to impose a new, lower salary scale for people recruited after a certain date, this is unusual (and would almost certainly be illegal in Europe). What has happened is that all aspects of pilot remuneration have been allowed to wither or steadily reduce over a long period.
In the 1970s and before, a senior long-haul captain would have earned a similar amount to the CEO of a small to medium company. He (there were almost no women pilots then) would have had unlimited, first-class staff travel in which he and his family would have had priority over fare-paying passengers. His incidental allowances may have included school fees and other significant offsets against what was agreed to be an appropriate lifestyle. He would expect to be able to run a large house close to the capital city's airport without the aid of his wife working, and would expect to run a very upmarket car at a time when car-ownership was very much more expensive than it is now. Perhaps most importantly, his lifestyle and the respect accorded him were considerably better than they are now - though, before the mid-1970s, there was no concept of FTLs or many of the other protections that we now enjoy.
In contrast, a long-haul captain can now expect to receive a salary equivalent to a middling small-town accountant, while the midsize company CEO can earn several times what a pilot earns! The benefits have now been cut back so that staff travel (where offered) is now so difficult and unreliable as to be useless, there are no 'lifestyle support' allowances, and respect has been ditched completely. Even the cleaners call him (or her) 'mate'. The car is likely to be a secondhand mainstream model, even though the 'other half' may be bringing a broadly equal salary into the household.
The time when a pilots was seen as some sort of hero, to be looked up to by others, have long gone. Now flying is just another job - and one which often requires lower qualifications than many other professions. The risks of death, once significant, are now rather less than if you locked yourself away at home, and the technical and flying challenges have been largely eliminated, or at least mitigated, by technology. Add to that people becoming jet FOs at 20, and captains at 23, it's no wonder that the observer (and airline accountant) wonders why pilots see themselves as something special!
If aviation continues to expand at its current rate, there will soon be more pilots than train drivers. For the lo-cost companies particularly, that is the level of salary they'll be aiming to offer in a few years' time if they can get away with it. As so many of you are willing to take your first job for little or no money at all (or, in some cases, even to pay to fly) I'd say they have a good chance of succeeding.
Scroggs
PS If you think salaries here are low, check out the commuter airlines in the US here and in this Pprune post. $15,000 pa for a Mesa Air FO. Thats £8,000. Food stamps (a subsidy for families the wrong side of the breadline) are presumably not included - though they would apply.
There is not now, there never has been, and there never will be a shortage of low-hour pilots. There are several times as many wannabes as there are jobs to employ them. If it were not so, companies would not be asking you to pay for type ratings etc. They can do that because they know you guys feel you have to gain an advantage any way you can, and so they exploit you.
There is a shortage, in some countries, of experienced jet pilots. However, in Western Europe the shortage is not yet acute despite easyJet's and Ryanair's voracious appetite for pilots. Hence pilot pay is still in a process of slow decline relative to other professions and the cost of living.
Your understanding of the way salaries work is flawed. While companies have been known to impose a new, lower salary scale for people recruited after a certain date, this is unusual (and would almost certainly be illegal in Europe). What has happened is that all aspects of pilot remuneration have been allowed to wither or steadily reduce over a long period.
In the 1970s and before, a senior long-haul captain would have earned a similar amount to the CEO of a small to medium company. He (there were almost no women pilots then) would have had unlimited, first-class staff travel in which he and his family would have had priority over fare-paying passengers. His incidental allowances may have included school fees and other significant offsets against what was agreed to be an appropriate lifestyle. He would expect to be able to run a large house close to the capital city's airport without the aid of his wife working, and would expect to run a very upmarket car at a time when car-ownership was very much more expensive than it is now. Perhaps most importantly, his lifestyle and the respect accorded him were considerably better than they are now - though, before the mid-1970s, there was no concept of FTLs or many of the other protections that we now enjoy.
In contrast, a long-haul captain can now expect to receive a salary equivalent to a middling small-town accountant, while the midsize company CEO can earn several times what a pilot earns! The benefits have now been cut back so that staff travel (where offered) is now so difficult and unreliable as to be useless, there are no 'lifestyle support' allowances, and respect has been ditched completely. Even the cleaners call him (or her) 'mate'. The car is likely to be a secondhand mainstream model, even though the 'other half' may be bringing a broadly equal salary into the household.
The time when a pilots was seen as some sort of hero, to be looked up to by others, have long gone. Now flying is just another job - and one which often requires lower qualifications than many other professions. The risks of death, once significant, are now rather less than if you locked yourself away at home, and the technical and flying challenges have been largely eliminated, or at least mitigated, by technology. Add to that people becoming jet FOs at 20, and captains at 23, it's no wonder that the observer (and airline accountant) wonders why pilots see themselves as something special!
If aviation continues to expand at its current rate, there will soon be more pilots than train drivers. For the lo-cost companies particularly, that is the level of salary they'll be aiming to offer in a few years' time if they can get away with it. As so many of you are willing to take your first job for little or no money at all (or, in some cases, even to pay to fly) I'd say they have a good chance of succeeding.
Scroggs
PS If you think salaries here are low, check out the commuter airlines in the US here and in this Pprune post. $15,000 pa for a Mesa Air FO. Thats £8,000. Food stamps (a subsidy for families the wrong side of the breadline) are presumably not included - though they would apply.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Excellent reply Scroggs.
That sums it up just about perfectly.
However, you do have one of the better jobs about... don't you? Or at least every other person seems to want your job !
That sums it up just about perfectly.
However, you do have one of the better jobs about... don't you? Or at least every other person seems to want your job !
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Suffolk UK
Posts: 4,927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have one of the better jobs in UK civil aviation, certainly. Thanks to a very active BALPA Company Committee, a united pilot workforce, and a relatively enlightened company management, we have possibly the best deal among UK airlines. However, it pales into insignificance compared to a BOAC/BA captain's package of 25-30 years ago.
Scroggs
Scroggs
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scroggs is right on the money, his observations [`on the money` poor choice of phrase] are as ever very accurate on the points he makes. The train driver reference is particularly good as once upon a time in the romantic days of steam an engine-driver was looked on as some kind of demi god by everyone
as the path to the throttle of several hundred tons of express train took in excess of 10 years more in some cases via cleaner, fireman and shunt driver.
Not so now, just like pilots, instead of looking dreamingly up at the cab of a locomotive people now curse and gesture at the unfortunate individual , respect for his job now non existent. The training schools seem to be churning out pilots on a larger scale than in the battle of britian, simple logistics would suggest that many will never fly a commercial aircraft for a living, but then again if it is `a living` that you seek with some civilised hours and a life with relationships and hobbies and possibly a little respect dare I say, then do your research outside of the biased views of the training schools,their brief is purely to get your money. Oh shortage of pilots, about the same as there is a shortfall of pigeons in trafalgar square, or in my garden for that matter.
as the path to the throttle of several hundred tons of express train took in excess of 10 years more in some cases via cleaner, fireman and shunt driver.
Not so now, just like pilots, instead of looking dreamingly up at the cab of a locomotive people now curse and gesture at the unfortunate individual , respect for his job now non existent. The training schools seem to be churning out pilots on a larger scale than in the battle of britian, simple logistics would suggest that many will never fly a commercial aircraft for a living, but then again if it is `a living` that you seek with some civilised hours and a life with relationships and hobbies and possibly a little respect dare I say, then do your research outside of the biased views of the training schools,their brief is purely to get your money. Oh shortage of pilots, about the same as there is a shortfall of pigeons in trafalgar square, or in my garden for that matter.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is such a shame, but I think many people still think aviation is fascinating.... Just go to any airport and see how many people are "plane spotting", listening to ATC, etc....See how many people are starting a PPL, are flying on their computer Flight Sim, etc....
How many jobs in the world can boast this?
Nobody will ever watch a teacher or a bus driver do their job!
Aviation makes people dream and fascinates them! It is one of the greatest invention of all times!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: EU
Posts: 961
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do,...
be at home at 6pm, wake up at 7am...be with your kids for lunch, have sat/sunday off.
bus driver? the dream job!!!
and teacher? what a lovely job, be with funy kids, the passion of a real job, be in a team.
Pilot? what a freaking job!!!wake up at 4 am, lousy salary, terrorism,...
etc.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 715
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ss?!?! Aren't you??! For me this is still a dream job. I admit I haven't been around long enough to know any better but I've been in the RHS over a year now, have experienced plenty of the downsides and I wouldn't swap it for anything.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Deepest Europe...
Age: 39
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dartagnan, judging by your pretty ignorant post you've obviously never been a teacher. I can tell you now that working solidly from 8:30am to midnight six days per week plus giving up your own time in holidays, plus having to deal with some atrocious examples of behaviour and lack of respect from children whose parents clearly don't give a damn, is not many people's idea of fun. Why don't you give it a try? You might be surprised.
So why are you still here? I don't think I've seen a single constructive post from you.
Pilot? what a freaking job!!!wake up at 4 am, lousy salary, terrorism,...
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 876
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do,...
be at home at 6pm, wake up at 7am...be with your kids for lunch, have sat/sunday off.
bus driver? the dream job!!!
and teacher? what a lovely job, be with funy kids, the passion of a real job, be in a team.
Pilot? what a freaking job!!!wake up at 4 am, lousy salary, terrorism,...
etc.
be at home at 6pm, wake up at 7am...be with your kids for lunch, have sat/sunday off.
bus driver? the dream job!!!
and teacher? what a lovely job, be with funy kids, the passion of a real job, be in a team.
Pilot? what a freaking job!!!wake up at 4 am, lousy salary, terrorism,...
etc.
I got to work on small pistons, light turbine, heavy jets, medium and now on light ones. What an experience and what a level of excitement I get every time I get to try a new toy. Absolutely fantastic !
The money is fine once you have a bit of experience and you know where to look so apart from being the skipper of a cruise ship/oil tanker, there is nothing else I would like to do.
Guys, it is not easy to become a pilot but if it is what you have always wanted to do, it is the best job there is.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UAE
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Cathy Pacific still looks like a nice little number, decent pay and conditions...PLUS the cabin crew bow to the pilots as they board the aircraft so im reliably told...Now thats what i call respect. 
"
Cathay now have a 'C' scale!! People thought it was bad when the 'A' scale was dropped for a 'B'! There are also long haul operators who employ Second Officers (crusie pilots) who earn less than senior cabin crew!
As for pilot shortages, FR has its full quota of Cadets for next summer so recruitment is off until next year and Direct entry positions are now getting very scarce as people are being promoted from within. Now bear in mind that 32 aircraft are arriving over the winter and 28 next winter. Thats a lot of drivers but the numbers are being met. Also, only around 50-60% of applicants pass the Sim check! That is a lot of people being interviewed, thus there are a lot of peolpe out there with the minimum requirements!
However, I would say that world wide a shortage of experienced pilots is developing - especially a shortage of Captains. Lots of jobs to be had in Asia and India but Western Europe is where most people want to work thus the supply of pilots in the Western market is meeting demand at present. We will know when a European Pilot shortage exists when BA and Virgin park wide bodies due no crews!
" Cathay now have a 'C' scale!! People thought it was bad when the 'A' scale was dropped for a 'B'! There are also long haul operators who employ Second Officers (crusie pilots) who earn less than senior cabin crew!
As for pilot shortages, FR has its full quota of Cadets for next summer so recruitment is off until next year and Direct entry positions are now getting very scarce as people are being promoted from within. Now bear in mind that 32 aircraft are arriving over the winter and 28 next winter. Thats a lot of drivers but the numbers are being met. Also, only around 50-60% of applicants pass the Sim check! That is a lot of people being interviewed, thus there are a lot of peolpe out there with the minimum requirements!
However, I would say that world wide a shortage of experienced pilots is developing - especially a shortage of Captains. Lots of jobs to be had in Asia and India but Western Europe is where most people want to work thus the supply of pilots in the Western market is meeting demand at present. We will know when a European Pilot shortage exists when BA and Virgin park wide bodies due no crews!
Gizajob
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: uk
Age: 49
Posts: 627
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What has happened is that all aspects of pilot remuneration have been allowed to wither or steadily reduce over a long period.
I don't work in aviation full-time (yet!) but in manufacturing. My starting package for my last position was one grade lower and without many of the benefits enjoyed by my colleague, who did an identical job. Why? He'd been there 20 years and I'd been there 20mins. The company can no longer pay for all these enormous benefits and still expect to make a profit. That's no accountants' excuse either - the figures back it up...
Am I disappointed? A little - I'd like to have a company car and a bigger bonus of course but then I have enough to live on (plus a bit extra) and my job is secure for now, so that's good enough.
I would campaign against unfairly low reward (e.g. £8000 for an FO!) but wishing for the 'golden era' of deference and super-salaries to return is pointless. I don't think it exists in any profession anymore - aviation is no different.
TightYorksherMan
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Peak District
Age: 41
Posts: 1,570
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have one of the better jobs in UK civil aviation, certainly. Thanks to a very active BALPA Company Committee, a united pilot workforce, and a relatively enlightened company management, we have possibly the best deal among UK airlines. However, it pales into insignificance compared to a BOAC/BA captain's package of 25-30 years ago.
Scroggs
Scroggs
