What the hell are we supposed to do?
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You what?
That I never said - what I stress is that there is a constantly perpetuated delusion that one can select oneself, train modular and beat the integrated offering.
I have clearly offended many below with my comments, however I assure you that I am not an integrated student with a chip on the shoulder.
I am posting here to stress that you must give yourself the best possible chance to succeed, and not make it doubly hard for yourself by persuing a course which is not the preferred choice of the vast majority of airlines.
I have clearly offended many below with my comments, however I assure you that I am not an integrated student with a chip on the shoulder.
I am posting here to stress that you must give yourself the best possible chance to succeed, and not make it doubly hard for yourself by persuing a course which is not the preferred choice of the vast majority of airlines.
I can only applaud your bravery or stupidity but I have yet to work out which it is to issue such a sweeping and profoundly groundless hypothesis.
I like all of the exmilitary pilots who I went through my courses with went the modular route not becuase we thought it had any advantages to the integrated route but simply as ex military pilots we had little or no choice.
Unless you are trying to imply that in your honest opinion the army, navy and air force are recruiting low grade pilots I would suggest that you want to rethink your view.
Incidentally I fully sympathize with Wingy having gotten to the point that I could no longer afford to support myself as an instructor and had to find non flying work to avoid loosing my house and/or my wife. I doubt that I was alone in this sort of financial trap and think it a little uncharitable that you believe that all modular pilots are:-
a) inferior and b) unemployable
Best of luck Wingy hope you get something soon
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Wingbar,
Have you talked to your bank? Have you explained the situation you're in? Yes or no. If you haven't, then you really ought to pronto.
Do that. Then get off the internet and get out networking and seeing smaller operators. If that's too hard then you're a troll.
Have you talked to your bank? Have you explained the situation you're in? Yes or no. If you haven't, then you really ought to pronto.
Do that. Then get off the internet and get out networking and seeing smaller operators. If that's too hard then you're a troll.
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The HSBC bank are a set of b*****s!
I have had not 1 not 2 but 6 meeting with them in as many weeks....they are utterly unhelpfull, the only option they can give me is to start closing down...yes,,,,, BANKRUPTCY.......and as being a Troll, it's a wonder i'm still here with all of this crap going on...I just want to go to sleep for a very long time indeed.........
I have had not 1 not 2 but 6 meeting with them in as many weeks....they are utterly unhelpfull, the only option they can give me is to start closing down...yes,,,,, BANKRUPTCY.......and as being a Troll, it's a wonder i'm still here with all of this crap going on...I just want to go to sleep for a very long time indeed.........
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And I've got a full half days instructing tomorrow...wow....that'll rake the bucks in!
Lets see,, 4 hours x12....erm.....ooo...48 quid !wow!
I may as well paint my arse blue and walk around the streets...no seriously I might as well just do that....
I'm even thinking of going back to that hateful industry.....IT ...full of gits that is, boring geeks, and weirdo's...I worked hard so I could go into flying to get away from that...my fathers had 35 years of it ...and I wasn't going the same route...but tomorrow may be my last day as a full time FI...as I can very sadly no longer afford it all.........
Aviation....what more do you want from me......
Lets see,, 4 hours x12....erm.....ooo...48 quid !wow!
I may as well paint my arse blue and walk around the streets...no seriously I might as well just do that....
I'm even thinking of going back to that hateful industry.....IT ...full of gits that is, boring geeks, and weirdo's...I worked hard so I could go into flying to get away from that...my fathers had 35 years of it ...and I wasn't going the same route...but tomorrow may be my last day as a full time FI...as I can very sadly no longer afford it all.........
Aviation....what more do you want from me......
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Although, I want to thank people on here for their kind suggestions and comments, I will try to take them in and do the best I can....but I am not sleeping much at the minute which eventually is going to lead to fatigue...\
Last edited by wingbar; 29th Aug 2006 at 22:45.
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On the subject of paying for type ratings: About fifteen years ago, I was a desperate, unemployed fATPL with about 1,000 hrs of light pistons. The idea of paying for ratings was only just coming in and I approached a couple of airlines and offered them a deal. The conversations went something like this:
me: How about if I pay for a type rating?
them: if you like.....
me: well, how about you interview me, and if you offer me a job, I will then go and do a type rating at the TRTO of your choice.
them: hmmmm, go and do the type rating first and then we'll see about giving you an interview.
me: BIG risk on a 'maybe' - I think not.
In the end, I didn't pay for a rating. Luckily, some years later, I managed to get into a decent company and now I'm a 737 captain, so that all worked out in the end without having to pay through the nose for the privilege.
me: How about if I pay for a type rating?
them: if you like.....
me: well, how about you interview me, and if you offer me a job, I will then go and do a type rating at the TRTO of your choice.
them: hmmmm, go and do the type rating first and then we'll see about giving you an interview.
me: BIG risk on a 'maybe' - I think not.
In the end, I didn't pay for a rating. Luckily, some years later, I managed to get into a decent company and now I'm a 737 captain, so that all worked out in the end without having to pay through the nose for the privilege.
Wingbar - you don't have it that bad. You are building hours every day and keeping current and at present the job market is historically good. Try winding back your position 5 years to the months and years following Sept 11th and I assure you that your life is a piece of cake compared to those that filled your current slot back then...
Why are you so scared of the bank? What is the worst they can do? Bankrupt you? Boo hoo. Unless you need a mortgage and credit card for the next two years or have a classic Ferrari in the garage you can't bear to see the baliffs in then just chill out. You are only 25 and I'm guessing don't have a family mortgage and children to consider.
Whatever happens, ie you leave the industry or stick with it - for heavens sake do not become that thing I hate most passionately: The Hostile Flying Instructor. We've all seen one or have heard one.
Prowling the flying school landscape developing a psychological hatred of the industry, the bank and the humble student. Unstable through a feeling of entrapment the hostile instructor is liable to lash out at any target. No longer interested in providing quality training he has one eye fixed on the Hobbs meter, another on his bank statement as his mind plods through the bare bones of the lesson. The hostile instructor appears to have a very small, highly localised CB floating just above his head and is to be avoided at all costs as a PPL.
As always, good luck with it all,
WWW
Why are you so scared of the bank? What is the worst they can do? Bankrupt you? Boo hoo. Unless you need a mortgage and credit card for the next two years or have a classic Ferrari in the garage you can't bear to see the baliffs in then just chill out. You are only 25 and I'm guessing don't have a family mortgage and children to consider.
Whatever happens, ie you leave the industry or stick with it - for heavens sake do not become that thing I hate most passionately: The Hostile Flying Instructor. We've all seen one or have heard one.
Prowling the flying school landscape developing a psychological hatred of the industry, the bank and the humble student. Unstable through a feeling of entrapment the hostile instructor is liable to lash out at any target. No longer interested in providing quality training he has one eye fixed on the Hobbs meter, another on his bank statement as his mind plods through the bare bones of the lesson. The hostile instructor appears to have a very small, highly localised CB floating just above his head and is to be avoided at all costs as a PPL.
As always, good luck with it all,
WWW
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Hello,
I'm following this debate every day. All i can advice you (Wingbar) is stick with it but make sure you feel good and comfortable in every decision you make.
A month ago i was a job beiing offered (after almost 2 years) but finally i rejected.(My friends say that i'm a big fool) but i'm feeling good with this decision.
I really can understand you are desperate to get a job but it is very important, and i repeat very important to stay rational even when you get a job offer. Companies know you want a job and take advantage of this.
So good luck
B
I'm following this debate every day. All i can advice you (Wingbar) is stick with it but make sure you feel good and comfortable in every decision you make.
A month ago i was a job beiing offered (after almost 2 years) but finally i rejected.(My friends say that i'm a big fool) but i'm feeling good with this decision.
I really can understand you are desperate to get a job but it is very important, and i repeat very important to stay rational even when you get a job offer. Companies know you want a job and take advantage of this.
So good luck
B
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Wingbar there's a great expression: "Owe the bank a thousand quid and you're in trouble. Owe them a million and they're in trouble!" As WWW says, what can they do to you? Bankruptcy is not the disaster it used to be, and it can help you get out of the debt hole you're now in. It's not to be taken lightly, but it may offer a way out. Read this thread for more information.
Secondly, it seems to me you are approaching (if not actually in) a state of clinical depression. You MUST go and see your Doctor if you suspect this is the case. A depressed person is in no state of mind to make coherent decisions about anything much, and an aeroplane is no place to be in that state. You don't want to lose your existing connection with flying, so do your best to nip this in the bud now. If you can do it, try and look at what good things there are in your life. Believe me, being an FI flying most days (even for low pay) is not such a bad thing - plenty would kill for what you have, including a fair number of current airline pilots!
You must stop winding yourself up into an ever-greater sense of desperation and start taking control of your life. There's plenty of good advice both in this and the bankruptcy threads. Take it.
Scroggs
Secondly, it seems to me you are approaching (if not actually in) a state of clinical depression. You MUST go and see your Doctor if you suspect this is the case. A depressed person is in no state of mind to make coherent decisions about anything much, and an aeroplane is no place to be in that state. You don't want to lose your existing connection with flying, so do your best to nip this in the bud now. If you can do it, try and look at what good things there are in your life. Believe me, being an FI flying most days (even for low pay) is not such a bad thing - plenty would kill for what you have, including a fair number of current airline pilots!
You must stop winding yourself up into an ever-greater sense of desperation and start taking control of your life. There's plenty of good advice both in this and the bankruptcy threads. Take it.
Scroggs
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Scroggs, and WWW, you are right, and I thank you for your advice...but it is in sheer desperation that I am writing all that I do, and, I can assure you that I am not clinically depressed.
I still give 100% to my students, they haven't done anything to deserve any less, and I have had instructors from both sides of the coin, and I know which one I would like to teach me.
But, I have come to my end of being able to sustain myself with full time flying instruction, and for that I am most sad....
Would bankruptcy affect my chances of an airline job?
WB
I still give 100% to my students, they haven't done anything to deserve any less, and I have had instructors from both sides of the coin, and I know which one I would like to teach me.
But, I have come to my end of being able to sustain myself with full time flying instruction, and for that I am most sad....
Would bankruptcy affect my chances of an airline job?
WB
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That I never said - what I stress is that there is a constantly perpetuated delusion that one can select oneself, train modular and beat the integrated offering.
I have clearly offended many below with my comments, however I assure you that I am not an integrated student with a chip on the shoulder.
I am posting here to stress that you must give yourself the best possible chance to succeed, and not make it doubly hard for yourself by persuing a course which is not the preferred choice of the vast majority of airlines.
I have clearly offended many below with my comments, however I assure you that I am not an integrated student with a chip on the shoulder.
I am posting here to stress that you must give yourself the best possible chance to succeed, and not make it doubly hard for yourself by persuing a course which is not the preferred choice of the vast majority of airlines.
If you don't believe me then get a bit of experience under your belts, develop some experience recruiting for a decent sized company then go stand outside Gatwick during the exams and watch the folks that walk in through the doors. That clears out the physical attributes like tattoos, long unkept hair and the like. Then spend some time around your average flying school and get to know (if you can) all the master chess players and computer gamers who have never nor would ever have wished to participate in any team sports in their lives. See how long they can hold a conversation and how nervous they are when you start asking them about themselves and if they look you in the eye. The sad thing is that no one has told these folks that they will never get past an airline interview. That they have no drive or get up and go and should give up before wasting more money. Unfortunately the way the system is setup they won't believe you anyway. Still don't believe me? Then after a while reading these forums you will soon see that some peoples ideas of getting a job involves trolling through Pprune and sending out CV's whilst stuck in front of their computer. Sad way to go after spending the thick end of £50-60k.
The plus side is that for the rest of us it reduces our training costs
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Wingbar,
I feel for you mate I really do. I can remember the sense of frustration and anger, especially after sept.11th, with the job market. It isn't nice.
For your own sake, suck it in and try not to let it show outside of Pprune, knock on doors and generally make a pest of yourself. Call every contact you may have in the industry (you probably have more than you realise).
One ray of hope, though. Have you thought about CPL instruction? I know FTE had a big recruitment drive a while ago, I'm sure they are still looking. They pay well.
Also, look for other Instructing jobs, most pay an awful lot more than £12/hr and experienced FI's are getting thin on the ground.
You won't feel better unless you take a positive step. Take this current situation as the lowest point and try to go up from here, but the lesson you learn when it's crap like this will stand you in good stead. Sounds daft, but it's true. When you are sitting in a shiny jet, remember all of those in your previous position and try to give them the leg up you needed.
One last thing, airline recruitment has stuff all to do with competency, so don't see this as an indictment on your own skills.
Don't be scared of bankrupcy, it isn't the end of the world and compared to most of the world's population, you are in a fantastic situation, you aren't at risk of disease, starvation, war or natural disaster. So try and keep a little bit of perspective.
Good luck.
Potkettleblack, one of the best pilots I know doesn't fit your limited view of what a pilot should look like. He's covered in tattoo's and sounds like a right geezer, but he's smart and has worked hard and now fly's for bmi.
We aren't all Ace Rimmer lookalikes and I like that fact. Having different people in the industry is a good thing, whereas having narrow minded folk like yourself is something the rest of us have to put up with.
I feel for you mate I really do. I can remember the sense of frustration and anger, especially after sept.11th, with the job market. It isn't nice.
For your own sake, suck it in and try not to let it show outside of Pprune, knock on doors and generally make a pest of yourself. Call every contact you may have in the industry (you probably have more than you realise).
One ray of hope, though. Have you thought about CPL instruction? I know FTE had a big recruitment drive a while ago, I'm sure they are still looking. They pay well.
Also, look for other Instructing jobs, most pay an awful lot more than £12/hr and experienced FI's are getting thin on the ground.
You won't feel better unless you take a positive step. Take this current situation as the lowest point and try to go up from here, but the lesson you learn when it's crap like this will stand you in good stead. Sounds daft, but it's true. When you are sitting in a shiny jet, remember all of those in your previous position and try to give them the leg up you needed.
One last thing, airline recruitment has stuff all to do with competency, so don't see this as an indictment on your own skills.
Don't be scared of bankrupcy, it isn't the end of the world and compared to most of the world's population, you are in a fantastic situation, you aren't at risk of disease, starvation, war or natural disaster. So try and keep a little bit of perspective.
Good luck.
Potkettleblack, one of the best pilots I know doesn't fit your limited view of what a pilot should look like. He's covered in tattoo's and sounds like a right geezer, but he's smart and has worked hard and now fly's for bmi.
We aren't all Ace Rimmer lookalikes and I like that fact. Having different people in the industry is a good thing, whereas having narrow minded folk like yourself is something the rest of us have to put up with.
There are just as many numpties in Oxford, Jerez or Cranfield my friend. I've seen self sponsored Integrated student pour £70k down the drain. Mostly immature benefactors of deluded parents.
It was emphatically NOT my job as a flying instructor at Jerez to discourage this wastefulness as it provided the source of my monthly pay cheque and that of the managements. Some numpty with little aptitude no drive and a trend to laziness was the ideal student as they would invariably end up needing retraining for flight tests and extra ££ hours ££.
Large FTO's market their pre-selection testing as a means to ensure they produce quality graduates. What they don't mention is that the £30 test often emboldens all students to feel that they do have the aptitude and that they should not give up even if they start failing, struggling, not enjoying it and their instructor gives them some friendly advice to pack it in and stop digging with a gold shovel. Telling all your customers that they have passed a pre-selection test can be used to give them the confidence to keep on spending their parents money for longer.
Flying training is a shark infested pool of self interest and exploitation as everyone waits drooling for the next poor soul to stumble through the door with their life savings clutched nervously before them.
Hope that's cheered you up
Wingbar - have you thought about moving up from PPL training to CPL training? The large FTO's these days will take people with 1000hrs without batting an eyelid. Its a LOT more rewarding than PPL work and much better paid.
Keep your chin up,
WWW
It was emphatically NOT my job as a flying instructor at Jerez to discourage this wastefulness as it provided the source of my monthly pay cheque and that of the managements. Some numpty with little aptitude no drive and a trend to laziness was the ideal student as they would invariably end up needing retraining for flight tests and extra ££ hours ££.
Large FTO's market their pre-selection testing as a means to ensure they produce quality graduates. What they don't mention is that the £30 test often emboldens all students to feel that they do have the aptitude and that they should not give up even if they start failing, struggling, not enjoying it and their instructor gives them some friendly advice to pack it in and stop digging with a gold shovel. Telling all your customers that they have passed a pre-selection test can be used to give them the confidence to keep on spending their parents money for longer.
Flying training is a shark infested pool of self interest and exploitation as everyone waits drooling for the next poor soul to stumble through the door with their life savings clutched nervously before them.
Hope that's cheered you up
Wingbar - have you thought about moving up from PPL training to CPL training? The large FTO's these days will take people with 1000hrs without batting an eyelid. Its a LOT more rewarding than PPL work and much better paid.
Keep your chin up,
WWW
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Its the same old story and theres no end in sight
Guys let me tell you something. I last logged on to PPRuNe 2 years ago and exactly the same points were beng made, as they were 4 years before that.
I qualified (FrATPL) in 2000. I'm a good guy (well we all think that - my current captain and FO mates will back me up!!!).
But I'm a self financed normal bloke with a wife, kids and a mortgage. I've never even got an interview (CV and letters were fine presentation wise, honest). I've given up now as my only way of getting a job now is via a ryanair like scheme and how can a guy like me both pay for a TR and then work for free for 6 months. Not going to happen however much I'm motivated to do it.
For any newbies reading this by all means try to become a professional pilot, but be under no illussions, if you do not have rich parents and a dad/uncle (or mum!?) who is a senior management pilot - or preferably both, you face a very difficult/impossible task.
And another thing - NEVER believe the dross training schools tell you about pilot shortages in the future - they've always said that and they've always been wrong, including pre 2001, which contrary to what some people think did not make the job market dire - it already was.
Sorry but there it is.
Keep smiling!
I qualified (FrATPL) in 2000. I'm a good guy (well we all think that - my current captain and FO mates will back me up!!!).
But I'm a self financed normal bloke with a wife, kids and a mortgage. I've never even got an interview (CV and letters were fine presentation wise, honest). I've given up now as my only way of getting a job now is via a ryanair like scheme and how can a guy like me both pay for a TR and then work for free for 6 months. Not going to happen however much I'm motivated to do it.
For any newbies reading this by all means try to become a professional pilot, but be under no illussions, if you do not have rich parents and a dad/uncle (or mum!?) who is a senior management pilot - or preferably both, you face a very difficult/impossible task.
And another thing - NEVER believe the dross training schools tell you about pilot shortages in the future - they've always said that and they've always been wrong, including pre 2001, which contrary to what some people think did not make the job market dire - it already was.
Sorry but there it is.
Keep smiling!
Last edited by Miles High; 30th Aug 2006 at 11:16. Reason: typo
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I have been in this market for 10-12 years(FAA fi, UK ATP,...), and it is really hard!.
I got jobs but most of the time I am unemployed.Getting a job is hard, when your company goes bankrupt and you have to find a new job, it is the hell!
Companies ask me to pay for my own t/rating, "go find the money, buy your t/r, then we will maybe discuss, !!!"
these companies are crimininal!
I see some improvement in this market and with my 1500h as a FI, now airlines seem to be interested.
I got jobs but most of the time I am unemployed.Getting a job is hard, when your company goes bankrupt and you have to find a new job, it is the hell!
Companies ask me to pay for my own t/rating, "go find the money, buy your t/r, then we will maybe discuss, !!!"
these companies are crimininal!
I see some improvement in this market and with my 1500h as a FI, now airlines seem to be interested.
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Newish to forums but not aviation 20 years.
I really sympathise with you all been there got t-shirt and hat. I have been too young too old too inexperienced too experienced (yes true ), just get 1500 hrs the multi rating will do it 500hrs twin maybe just some turbine time you need the space shuttle type rating to start in the operations department then after 12 months we will make you a 9th officer on the warrior "WHAT THE 
"
Obtained FI 14 years ago WHAT FOR?????
sorry not after sympathy just the truth.
I agrree that TRs should not be paid for but the airlines have us right where they want us and unfortunatly and very sadly so, it appears to have become the norm. I still don,t understand how you are expected to pay for a type rating after you complete your training?
I ended up south of the med for several years, with a few bucks and a return ticket for insurance
and I am still struggling but of course over time things have eased. Aviation is very rewarding and if you want it you must keep on going and get it with a little luck all will end well.
good luck all
DnL
I really sympathise with you all been there got t-shirt and hat. I have been too young
too old too inexperienced too experienced (yes true ), just get 1500 hrs the multi rating will do it 500hrs twin maybe just some turbine time you need the space shuttle type rating to start in the operations department then after 12 months we will make you a 9th officer on the warrior "WHAT THE " Obtained FI 14 years ago WHAT FOR?????
sorry not after sympathy just the truth. I agrree that TRs should not be paid for but the airlines have us right where they want us and unfortunatly and very sadly so, it appears to have become the norm. I still don,t understand how you are expected to pay for a type rating after you complete your training?
I ended up south of the med for several years, with a few bucks and a return ticket for insurance
and I am still struggling but of course over time things have eased. Aviation is very rewarding and if you want it you must keep on going and get it with a little luck all will end well.good luck all
DnL
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Well, again the fun continues, rained off today...another day without income..... and the bank just called AGAIN!- Really what do they want my blood?
Now in desperation looking to go back to the crap IT work I hate so much.....again in tears...just spoke to an ops director who virtually told me to F' off..... I'm now going through the hell of IT recruiters and forms and them wondering why I left etc etc .
I'm struggling to secure anything part time now as well.....looks like full time is the only way to get back into that again........when will I get to return to aviation I really wonder with all of this........
Now in desperation looking to go back to the crap IT work I hate so much.....again in tears...just spoke to an ops director who virtually told me to F' off..... I'm now going through the hell of IT recruiters and forms and them wondering why I left etc etc .
I'm struggling to secure anything part time now as well.....looks like full time is the only way to get back into that again........when will I get to return to aviation I really wonder with all of this........
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For God's sake, get back into full time IT work right away. It's not half as boring and **** as you make it out to be. It pays, and it can pay bloody good. 5 years in this sector has given me enough to buy my own house and put a decent amount towards my commercial training. Like I said, I've been doing it for 5 years, and aim to get right back into it after completion of Modular. No doubt about it, I'll wait 5 years (until I'm 30) for my first commercial job if it takes that long. Personally, I would much rather prefer to be in a well paid and secure job than be 'in the aviation loop' so to speak, earning a pittence not knowing how I'm going to eat tomorrow. A poorly paid instructors job is not going to help YOUR situation. Toughen up and take control. As to why you aint being recognised with 600TT. Can I ask:
How old are you?
Your academic qualifications? A'Levels? Degree?
How old are you?
Your academic qualifications? A'Levels? Degree?
Last edited by Superpilot; 31st Aug 2006 at 14:53.