Here's what the Airlines really want!!!!!!!
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Originally Posted by cheevere
for all the bull going on this site, here's a survey that outlines what the airlines really require for FOs. age, knowledge etc are discussed. This will aid anyone seeking training as it seems more about the right type of person than ur type of training that you did. have a look anyways and let me know what u think.
wasteful feedback need not apply
http://www.gapan.org/career/survey.htm
wasteful feedback need not apply
http://www.gapan.org/career/survey.htm
What is 'wasteful' feedback, pray?
GAPAN is a highly-respected organisation, but a survey of seven airlines taken some time ago is hardly representative of the industry. It would appear to me that this document is claiming greater authority than it deserves. There are around 50 airlines in UK alone, and their recruiting policies differ widely. There are many who are quite happy to accept low-houred pilots well over 30 (occasionally into the 40s), and the majority will currently take graduates of modular training. Academic requirements also vary widely.
There may be some useful stuff in the rest of the report, however. That said, I have some reservations about the motivations behind the report. EPST is a commercial organisation, closely associated with OAT, and GAPAN itself offers a number of different sponsorships. Their own preferences may well have influenced the conclusion the report came to. I have been involved in interviewing GAPAN aptitude testees as a guest interviewer, and I was struck by some of the outdated and conservative attitudes and opinions of some of the GAPAN interviewers; much of the advice they gave seemed to be based on BA recruiting of the 1980s - or earlier! I found myself occasionally profoundly disagreeing with the entrenched viewpoints of one or two of their people, and I therefore wonder if their report may be influenced by similarly outdated opinions.
So, the report is from too small a sample. It has commercial backing, which undermines its objectivity. It comes from an organisation which may be a little out of touch with the modern market. I would therefore take its findings as no more than a useful addition to the information that can be found here.
Scroggs
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This whole thing is pitched shamelessly towards that holy grail of "big jet straight out of flying school" and yeah it makes pretty depressing reading if that's the only career target you are aiming at.
All that this survey really says is that if you happen to be one of the elite few who are mid 20s, have a super duper academic record, and have more money than a bull can sh!t - then yes you probably have a better chance than the rest of us. Woop de doo, I reckon most of us could have figured that out without a survey.
Of course most NON big-jet operators, i.e. the turboprops and regionals etc, are deeply suspicious of pilots like that because they know damn well the dude is going to work here for a year or two, and then cruise off to BA faster than you can say "thanks-for-the-unfrozen-ATPL-suckers!".
Those who don't fulfil that narrow set of criteria - i.e. the vast majority of us - no need to get too demoralized because there are still plenty of other options available. There are plenty of people out there of course who got the big jet job even though they weren't this fictitious GAPAN superhero. Otherwise you'll just have to go down the traditional road of instructor - turboprop - little jet - big jet. Or parachute dropping. Or bush flying. Or ambulance flying. Or night freight in battered old piston twins. Or whatever. Think outside the square a bit, you'll get there eventually, and for gods sake dont go jumping off a bridge because some dodgy survey says you can't get an airline job unless this this and this.
All that this survey really says is that if you happen to be one of the elite few who are mid 20s, have a super duper academic record, and have more money than a bull can sh!t - then yes you probably have a better chance than the rest of us. Woop de doo, I reckon most of us could have figured that out without a survey.
Of course most NON big-jet operators, i.e. the turboprops and regionals etc, are deeply suspicious of pilots like that because they know damn well the dude is going to work here for a year or two, and then cruise off to BA faster than you can say "thanks-for-the-unfrozen-ATPL-suckers!".
Those who don't fulfil that narrow set of criteria - i.e. the vast majority of us - no need to get too demoralized because there are still plenty of other options available. There are plenty of people out there of course who got the big jet job even though they weren't this fictitious GAPAN superhero. Otherwise you'll just have to go down the traditional road of instructor - turboprop - little jet - big jet. Or parachute dropping. Or bush flying. Or ambulance flying. Or night freight in battered old piston twins. Or whatever. Think outside the square a bit, you'll get there eventually, and for gods sake dont go jumping off a bridge because some dodgy survey says you can't get an airline job unless this this and this.
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Cheevere,
thank you for taking the time to do some research and posting the results of it.
Still, as others have already pointed out, you seem to think you know much more than you actually do. It is probably typical of (some people of) your age i guess. Thanks god it's not like you say it out there.
So would you please notch it down a little when it comes to issuing sentences like the one relative to LD MAX, where you are basically suggesting he should take up farming?
Basically, little less arrogance and a bit more respect please
Ciao
thank you for taking the time to do some research and posting the results of it.
Still, as others have already pointed out, you seem to think you know much more than you actually do. It is probably typical of (some people of) your age i guess. Thanks god it's not like you say it out there.
So would you please notch it down a little when it comes to issuing sentences like the one relative to LD MAX, where you are basically suggesting he should take up farming?
Basically, little less arrogance and a bit more respect please
Ciao
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to aerdna and ld max
i wasnt being arrogant is just my uncle is a senior pilot with aer lingus so id imagine he has a reasonable good and reliable opinion more so than most on here and the sentiments being relayed to me from him is to go integrated with one of the good schools basically if i have any aspirations of getting a job with one of the major carriers. anyone who wants to do training in their forties id seriously recommend doing some research and dont go about spending circa 100k euro because people like scroggs say that you might get a job. the fact of the matter is that every single airline prefers younger people why wouldnt they, yes some airlines will take on someone in their forties but they are few and far between. scroggs isnt spending the money for you, so i think its irresponsible by him giving people that age who havent started training false hope or illusions that they will easily find a job because he knew a couple of people who got lucky and got them. Because if he's being honest he'd say they were very lucky. yes the survery is a small sample but a fair representation of whats going on today in the industry today according to my uncle.
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Before you criticise me and the advice I give to older wannabes, you need to go back and read through the several hundred posts I have made on the subject. I very much doubt you have done that.
I have no idea what experience your uncle has with respect to the business of people getting jobs in this industry, but I have a great deal. I can categorically assure you that there is no magic about doing an integrated course. In fact, the most successful course available in terms of graduate employment is the CTC Wings course, which is modular. Some airlines certainly do express a preference for integrated graduates, but those same airlines (including BA) regularly employ modular graduates. Even the GAPAN survey you quote shows only one out of the seven airlines surveyed that professes to prefer integrated graduates - and that was at a time when they could be much more choosy than they can now.
Cheevere, you most certainly are being arrogant. Do a bit less opinionating and a bit more listening and reading before you make any training choices.
Scroggs
I have no idea what experience your uncle has with respect to the business of people getting jobs in this industry, but I have a great deal. I can categorically assure you that there is no magic about doing an integrated course. In fact, the most successful course available in terms of graduate employment is the CTC Wings course, which is modular. Some airlines certainly do express a preference for integrated graduates, but those same airlines (including BA) regularly employ modular graduates. Even the GAPAN survey you quote shows only one out of the seven airlines surveyed that professes to prefer integrated graduates - and that was at a time when they could be much more choosy than they can now.
Cheevere, you most certainly are being arrogant. Do a bit less opinionating and a bit more listening and reading before you make any training choices.
Scroggs
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I wouldn't normally start having a willy measuring contest with some 4-post adolescent with a bad attitude, but since you've only been posting in this forum for about 10 seconds you probably aren't aware that Scroggs is an ex-very-senior RAF pilot now flying the A340 with Virgin Atlantic. I'm nowhere near his league but I am a turboprop captain of 10+ years experience in the business.
I think we are probably both capable of deciding who we can and can't give career advice to without you or your uncle's input. And if I had to choose between sharing my flightdeck on some max duty 6-sector day with a proper grown up 40-year-old, or some arrogant ignorant young know-it-all such as you appear to be, then it wouldn't be a hard choice to make to be honest.
Now piss off and learn some manners (and learn some PUNCTUATION while you're at it for christ's sake!), or I suspect you'll be making new world records for shortest number of posts before pprune sin-binning.
( edited to say - you beat me to it again scroggs!
)
I think we are probably both capable of deciding who we can and can't give career advice to without you or your uncle's input. And if I had to choose between sharing my flightdeck on some max duty 6-sector day with a proper grown up 40-year-old, or some arrogant ignorant young know-it-all such as you appear to be, then it wouldn't be a hard choice to make to be honest.
Now piss off and learn some manners (and learn some PUNCTUATION while you're at it for christ's sake!), or I suspect you'll be making new world records for shortest number of posts before pprune sin-binning.
( edited to say - you beat me to it again scroggs!
)
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sorry for having some ambition and wanting the big jet job straight away.
That is not ambition. That is having absolutely no understanding of how the industry works. No idea about what flying is all about.
It is also an attitude that makes me a touch angry.
Sh!t I have done instructing, single pilot ops and now fly a "small" business aircraft. Clearly I have no ambition or any sort of motivation, loved every single moment of my flying though.
Guess my attitude stinks because I was over 30 when I started my commercial training.
Like most careers, being a pilot involves a learning curve. Wanting to go straight onto big shiney jets doesn't demonstrate ambition it demonstrates arrogance - trust me, arrogance does not fit in with the modern CRM environment.
Please don't think that my comments are in any way a personal attack, I wouldn't lower myself
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Without exception every single jet pilot I know including highly experienced training captains are from modular backgrounds, all but one started on turboprops or light pistons and most didn't get their first commercial job until their late 20s/early 30s.
There are a lot of jobs out there, and there are people from all shades of the training spectrum getting in on the action. No one system or school has a monopoly on success or how to do it. There's still room for all the different approaches, including the integrated cadet getting into a 737 at 250 hours. They'll miss out on a great deal of good flying but, hey, that's their loss!
Scroggs
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Scroggs,
Which airlines employ modular 250 hr guys to fly their 737s then?? From what Ive seen they all mainly ask for experience, such as 500 hrs on type. I also know that there are many integrated chaps who are brought through the backdoors into these airlines, such as BA however the same cant be said about modular.
Which airlines employ modular 250 hr guys to fly their 737s then?? From what Ive seen they all mainly ask for experience, such as 500 hrs on type. I also know that there are many integrated chaps who are brought through the backdoors into these airlines, such as BA however the same cant be said about modular.
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Interview Skills...
Best of luck with that interview. Yea, in most places you can't just walk into an HR office, slam down a resume and declare that you want "big jet time". You have to interview, based on your expierence, skill in the SIM, and PERSONALITY! I don't know how you are in person, but if you come in to any avation company with the attitude that you have given in this thread, I can gaurentee you that your interviewers will chucke, look the other way, and then give you the ole' don't call us... we'll call you speech. Everyone desirves a big jet job. The harsh reality for you will be that you have to work for it. I had to flight instruct for 3 years before getting a regional CRJ job. I still have a long way to go. Put in your time in, fly the line, be patient, and learn something about the industry. Don't just go spouting off using your Uncle as your only refrence, it just comes off as ignorant. Oh yea and one more thing... don't EVER bring up your Uncle in an interview (unlesss it's for an Air Lingus job) they won't care.
A WELL TRAINED F/O SAYS THREE THINGS: Clear Right, You're Right, and I'll take the fat one.
A WELL TRAINED F/O SAYS THREE THINGS: Clear Right, You're Right, and I'll take the fat one.
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machlimiter, actually, if you go back through my posts, I haven't mentioned any 250-hour modular graduates on 737s. I have mentioned 250-hour integrated guys getting 737 jobs:
and I have said that those airlines that express a preference for integrated graduates are also taking modular graduates:
That said, there is anecdotal evidence right here on Pprune that at least a few 250-hour modular guys are getting a break into jet jobs again. How many, and where from, I can't tell you off the top of my head. It's probably fair to say that most modular guys need a few more hours, but not that many.
Scroggs
...including the integrated cadet getting into a 737 at 250 hours
Some airlines certainly do express a preference for integrated graduates, but those same airlines (including BA) regularly employ modular graduates.
Scroggs
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scroggs,
Not wanting to sound too critical, but I have met some of the integrated chaps that have had interviews lined up (with BA et al) even before they start their IRs; I dont think the same can be said for the modular chaps.
From my own personal experience, I have 1600 hours, aged 29 with a f.atpl, however most of these hours are on a SEP and I cant find a jet operator that doesnt want hours on a jet before they will look at your cv. Just wondering are others in the same position???
Not wanting to sound too critical, but I have met some of the integrated chaps that have had interviews lined up (with BA et al) even before they start their IRs; I dont think the same can be said for the modular chaps.
From my own personal experience, I have 1600 hours, aged 29 with a f.atpl, however most of these hours are on a SEP and I cant find a jet operator that doesnt want hours on a jet before they will look at your cv. Just wondering are others in the same position???
machlimter99,
Not looking hard enough then. I'm modular, low-hrs and closer to 40 than 35 and have been flying jets for 3 months with our national flag carrier.
Not looking hard enough then. I'm modular, low-hrs and closer to 40 than 35 and have been flying jets for 3 months with our national flag carrier.
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Cheevere
First could I ask a small courtesy of you? Your post would be far easier to read if you actually punctuated it and separated it into paragraphs correctly.
However I also have to take issue with some of your points.
Why should a senior pilot know anything about the best route for training? For a start you have not said that he is involved with recruitment, and in any case he works for a single airline. Also they themselves trained under a completely different system, before the JAA even existed. I have heard some very bad advice from "senior pilots" on this subject.
Where is your proof of this "fact"? Is it like the "fact" that 90% of companies insist people retire at 50, when I can think of none that do and plenty that allow pilots to fly until 65 (up to the size of DHL for example) and others only won't because of French intransigence. In fact you are unlucky, and made it even more obvious you don't know what you are talking about as you had missed the recent news that BA are going to allow their pilots to elect to continue to 60; previously they retired at 55.
The survey is nothing like a fair sample or a fair impression. The arguments have been put, you need to address them not simply command that it is a fair representation!
APU INOP
I hope you haven't got an MCC! The role of the FO is exactly the opposite - it is to tell the Captain he is wrong. If he is right then he doesn't need anyone to tell him, he probably isn't that modest!
First could I ask a small courtesy of you? Your post would be far easier to read if you actually punctuated it and separated it into paragraphs correctly.
However I also have to take issue with some of your points.
Why should a senior pilot know anything about the best route for training? For a start you have not said that he is involved with recruitment, and in any case he works for a single airline. Also they themselves trained under a completely different system, before the JAA even existed. I have heard some very bad advice from "senior pilots" on this subject.
the fact of the matter is that every single airline prefers younger people [sic] why wouldnt [sic] they, [sic]
The survey is nothing like a fair sample or a fair impression. The arguments have been put, you need to address them not simply command that it is a fair representation!
APU INOP
I hope you haven't got an MCC! The role of the FO is exactly the opposite - it is to tell the Captain he is wrong. If he is right then he doesn't need anyone to tell him, he probably isn't that modest!
Last edited by Send Clowns; 29th Mar 2006 at 12:50. Reason: typos