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Criminal Conviction A Problem?

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Criminal Conviction A Problem?

Old 6th Jan 2006, 10:59
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Re: Criminal Conviction A Problem?

Scroggs,

Are you telling me that if Virgin Atlantic (where you work) found out about a previous arson conviction that they would employ this guy?

Get real, whatever the law says is irrelevant.

There are loads of people chasing too few jobs. Why would an airline take on a former arsonist when it has plenty of straight down the line guys to choose from?

What some people, i.e. 747 downwind are advocating is lying on an application form to get a job. PATHETIC.

I know that TUI/THOMSON ask if you have had previous convictions. The fact that they comply with the rehabilitation of offenders act is one thing. They won't tell you that you don't fit the bill because of that conviction. You just won't fit the bill for one of many other reasons they are at liberty to dream up.

Lewis is thinking of spending 60000GBP to do a course leading to huge debts in order to never get a job in my opinion.

I THINK YOU SHOULD BE CAREFUL.
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Old 6th Jan 2006, 11:24
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Re: Criminal Conviction A Problem?

Stansdead, you are talking complete rubbish. If TUI/Thompson comply with the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, they cannot find out about a conviction that is spent. In fact, they can't whether or not they comply with the Act. The only way they can find out is if you tell them, and the law does not require you to do so if your conviction is spent. So why do so? You are totally within your rights not to, and the employer is breaking the law if they subsequently discover the conviction and then act on that discovery.

I get the feeling that your only motive is to discourage a potential competitor for a job!

Scroggs
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Old 6th Jan 2006, 11:40
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Re: Criminal Conviction A Problem?

Scroggs,

I have been with my employer as long as you have been at VS. And i am not looking to leave either, so your guesswork is wrong.

You agree it's ok to tell untruths if asked in interview?

Stan
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Old 6th Jan 2006, 11:40
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Re: Criminal Conviction A Problem?

Stansdead,

Also, I belive the phrase is "rehabilitation of offenders" - clearly in your eyes Lewiss should be punished for his mistake as a youth for the rest of his life. If that's the case, there's no point having a justice system as people clearly can't recognise what they did was wrong, and change.

THAT is a very dangerous way of thinking.

DW.
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Old 6th Jan 2006, 12:31
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Re: Criminal Conviction A Problem?

Originally Posted by stansdead
Scroggs,
You agree it's ok to tell untruths if asked in interview?
Stan
You are not legally required to reveal any conviction that is spent. You have the full backing of the law to withold that information. The employer has no right to demand it. There is no suggestion of lying. The question must always take the form, "Bearing in mind the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, do you have any convictions?". If your conviction is spent, you have none to declare.

You may have worked for your employer for a while. Clearly, you have learned little about the processes of employment. I, on the other hand, have been directly involved in the process from the employer's side over several years, though not currently. My advice stands, and I am very happy for it to be quoted to any lawyer, potential employee or employer.

Scroggs
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Old 6th Jan 2006, 15:38
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Re: Criminal Conviction A Problem?

With regard training in the US,

If your conviction is now spent then don't disclose it to the embassy. Even if it is required to do so, the chances of them going as far as vetting your criminal record are slim if you've always been a white UK resident, even in this current terrorist conscious environment believe it or not. The most you can expect are a few pointless questions about choice of training location from the guy sat behind the window in Grosvenor Square because unfortunately they are still not as security wise as they like to appear. Expect a pull at immigration stateside but that's only to check you have the relevant paperwork that the FTO facilitate on your behalf and then you'll soon be on your merry way. Just don't spark a ciggie up in the waiting room because they fine you something like $10'000 for the privilage over there.... and they carry guns, as one slight pissed punter found out whilst I was sat waiting my turn at MCO once!

Listen to Scroggs regarding the job implications and not the bar room know-all's who post here.

VFE.

Last edited by VFE; 6th Jan 2006 at 15:51.
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Old 6th Jan 2006, 16:28
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Re: Criminal Conviction A Problem?

Stansdead: I never suggested that somebody should lie on an application form in order to get a job. In fact I have advised people against doing such things: (rounding up hours.. saying they have 14 first time passes when they actually have 13 etc). It is morally wrong and I would hope the airline would find out and dismiss them accordingly (it is too much of a small industry to get black listed).

Thomson and Thomas Cook amongst others do have a section for previous criminal convictions but if you look closely underneath you will see the reference to the 1974 Rehabilitation of Offenders Act.

LewisS has no obligation to inform an airline of his past spent conviction(s), if it good enough for the BAA or relevant airport operator then it is good enough for the airline. This is to do with airside safety, not who's been a naughty boy and should be punished for it. Withholding information that has not been questioned is not a lie, it is common sense. Have you never done something bad in your life, or had a poor performance in a given criteria.. you wouldn't just tell the Chief Pilot for the fun of it.. or better still say it in an interview or on an application.

I am merely advising the guy not to shoot himself in the foot.. I don't know why you are so keen for him not to pursue this career when many just like him have gone through the system with no problems. If he had previous for armed robbery or association with terrorist/political groups then clearly an airport operator would deny an airside pass.

The only advocation of lying I gave was for the US embassy and I stick by that.. if I was in that situation I wouldn't bother declaring it to them.. just my opinion.
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Old 8th Jan 2006, 11:12
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Re: Criminal Conviction A Problem?

The training visa ia an M1 or J1 for flight training in the states.

As for the basic Scotland Disclosure check, why don't you just obtain a basic disclosure? It will only cost 13.60 and will take a week or two to arrive.

Anyone can obtain one for themselves. I had to apply for a basic disclosure for the Security Pass at Cardiff International Airport myself as it is for airside access but for private flying and thus an employer would not be paying.

http://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/

It seems that you can start the process online nowadays:

https://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk.../BDO_Instr.htm

You will then know whether it will show up on the disclosure certificate... however you won't be able to use that certificate to obtain an airport pass as it is only valid for a certain period (a few weeks or a couple of months, I can't remember as its been a while since I obtained my airside pass) and thus a new one would probably be required.
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Old 8th Jan 2006, 15:14
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Re: Criminal Conviction A Problem?

Hi,

I've applied for a basic disclosure and I can go forward from there. Thank you all for taking the time to respond to my query, especially the ones that were encouraging.
Never thought I’d get this much feedback so thanks.

Lew
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Old 13th Jan 2006, 12:18
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Re: Criminal Conviction A Problem?

Lewis my man,

I would be very very careful with what you take from this thread, a lot of the comments, whilst encouraging, are ill informed. I have researched this matter myself very carefully as I have a spent "bind over" on my record for the rediculous offence of indecent exposure from a few years ago. Here is what I think is the best advice you will get, however again don't take everything I say at face value, i may also be not entirely correct. I don't know anything about whether your conviction prevents you from holding an ATPL or airside pass, may be best to ring the CAA about that. I do however know a bit about the getting a job with an airline side of it.

1. Airlines can be exempt from the rehab of offenders act under grounds of national security. If exempt, they are entitled to seek an Enhanced Disclosure on you. It is very likely that this will show up your spent arson conviction.

2. When you apply for a pilots job it will ask for details of any convictions on the application form. This section of the form will, by law, say explicitly whether or not they are exempt from the rehab of offenders act. If they state that they are exempt then you will have to put down your spent conviction. This will not look good. If you do not put it down and they subsequently check, through an enhanced disclosure, it will look even worse.
I doubt whether airline recruiters will take a sympathetic view to past convictions, as there will be hundreds of other non-convicted pilots for them to choose from I reckon your chances of gaining a job will be slim.

As a potential life line however it may be the case that your spent conviction may not even show up on your enhanced disclosure if it was of a certain type and long enough ago. Try ringing NACRO (an advice helpline for these sort of issues) on 02075826500, who will be able to help.

3. If the airline is not exempt from the rehab of offenders act then they are, by law, not allowed to ask for details of any spent convictions. Their compliance with the rehab act will be stated explicitly by law on any job application forms. If this is the case then do not put your spent conviction down, as they can only get a basic disclosure on you which will show up nothing.

I think the real make or break issue here is whether or not the airlines choose to exercise their right to be exempt from the rehab of offenders act on job applications. It may be that even though they can, some of them may not bother, as the time and costs associated with getting an enhanced disclosure might not be to their liking.

Hence the following questions need to be answered, can anybody help?

Does anyone know whether or not airlines choose to exercise their right to be exempt from the rehab of offenders act? If so, how many do, and how many don't?

Has anyone filled out an airline job application form recently, and can they remember if it specified whether or not the airline was exempt from the act?

Also, from a personal point of view, whilst Lewis' arson conviction will almost certainly proclude him from getting a pilots job should it be revealed to a potential future airline employer, will they take the same line with my very minor, completely rediculous indecent exposure digression, should they get their eyes on it?
In other words, do the recruters take an arbitrary "no one works for us with any kind of criminal record", or will they differentiate in the cases of very minor/ completely rediculous offences?
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Old 13th Jan 2006, 21:56
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Re: Criminal Conviction A Problem?

Yet again, we have bits of information cobbled together with assumptions to produce advice which is at best misleading. Let's start again:

The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (ROA) is the specific piece of legislation affecting ex-offenders' employment opportunities. Under certain circumstances, it enables them to 'wipe the slate clean' of their criminal record once a period of time has lapsed from the date of conviction. Provided they have not been re-convicted for another offence, their conviction is said to become spent and for the purpose of employment it can be treated as though it never existed. This means that if the ex-offender is asked on an application form, or at an interview, if they have a criminal record they are entitled to answer 'no'. It is illegal for an employer to discriminate against the ex-offender on grounds of their spent conviction.

The kind of sentences covered by the ROA include custodial (up to 2.5 years), probation, binding over, youth detention and a number of military sentences. Note it is the sentence, not the offence, which determines whether the ROA applies. The longest period that must elapse before the offence is considered spent is 10 years; the shortest is 6 months.

When a person applies for a job, an employer, if he feels that it is appropriate, can ask the applicant to obtain a Basic Disclosure (which will detail all convictions that are currently unspent under The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974), from Disclosure Scotland.

Standard Disclosure

A Standard Disclosure will be available for those applying for positions listed in The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exclusions and Exceptions). A Standard Disclosure will contain details of all convictions on record, whether spent or unspent and any cautions, warnings and reprimands. A Standard Disclosure will be for individuals applying for the posts whose duties involve:

1) Regular contact with children and young people under the age of 18.

2) Regular contact with the elderly, sick and handicapped people.


Enhanced Disclosure

Enhanced Disclosure will be available for those applying for positions which involves a greater degree of contact with children or vulnerable adults. This will involve those regularly caring for, supervising, or being in sole charge of children and young people or vulnerable adults.

Enhanced Disclosures will include all of the details contained in the Standard Disclosure (spent and unspent convictions), cautions, warnings and reprimands and any non-conviction information held locally by police, where this is considered relevant to the post or voluntary work being sought.
To ensure adequate protection for the public, exemptions have to be made so that information about “spent” convictions may not be withheld in certain circumstances. These exemptions are set out in statute – ‘the Exceptions Order’.

The Exceptions Order sets out the types of work and range of proceedings involving a particular level of trust to which the protection offered by the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act to ex-offenders is not available. Types of work include work with children, work with vulnerable adults and employment involving the administration of justice, national security and financial services. It does not necessarily debar ex-offenders from these jobs. Generally it will be for an employer or other authorised person to make an assessment of the relevance of the conviction.

However, if the person is seeking work in a child care position and their previous convictions are such that they have been included in the list, it will be unlawful for the person to be employed in a child care position.

The Exceptions Order now makes it clear that questions about previous convictions can be asked of those who are seeking to train for any of the professions, offices, occupation or employments specified in the Order, and of those who are currently training for such positions.

Excepted Professions, Offices, Employments and Occupations

Offices and Employments

 Judicial Appointments
 Prosecutors, Officers assisting prosecutors, and Officers assisting in the work of the Crown Office
 Signing Justices, and their Clerks and Assistants
 Clerks (including depute and assistant clerks) and officers of the High Court of Justiciary and the Court of Session and the District Court, Sheriff Clerks (including sheriff clerk depute) and their Clerks and assistants
 Precognition Agents
 Constables, Police Custody, Security Officers, Persons appointed as Police Cadets to undergo training with a view to becoming Constables and persons employed for the purposes of, or to assist the Constables of, a Police Force established under any enactment, Naval, Military and Air Force Police
 Any employment which is concerned with the administration of, or is otherwise normally carried out wholly or partly within the precincts of a prison, remand centre, young offenders institution, detention centre or removal centre, and members of visiting committees for prisons appointed under rules made under section 39 of the Prisons (Scotland) Act 1989(a) and members of visiting committees for remand centres and young offenders institutions appointed under section 19(3) of that Act
 Traffic wardens appointed under section 95 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984(b) or section 9 of the Police (Scotland) Act 1967(c)
 Any employment or work which is concerned with the provision of a care service
 Any employment or work which is concerned with the provision of health services and which is of such a kind as to enable the holder to have access to persons in receipt of such service in the course of that person’s normal duties
 Any employment or work in a child care position
 Any person who provides a service, or who seeks to provide a service under Part 4 of the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Act 2000(d)
 Any employment in the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals where the person employed or working, as part of his or her duties, may carry out the killing of animals
 Any office or employment in the Serious Fraud Office
 Any office or employment in the National Crime Squad or the National Criminal Intelligence Service
 Any office or employment in Her Majesty’s Customs and Excise
 Any employment which is concerned with the monitoring, for the purpose of child protection, of communications by means of the internet
 Any office or employment in the Social Services Council
 Her Majesty’s Inspectors or any person appointed by Ministers for the purposes of the Education Act 1980(e)
 The principal Reporter or officers appointed under the Local Government Act to assist that officer
 Members of a panel established by virtue of the Children Act 1995(h) (panels for curators ad litem, reporting officers and safeguarders)

Occupations

 Firearms dealer
 Any occupation in respect of which an application to the Gaming Board for Great Britain for a licence, certificate or registration is required by or under any enactment
 Any occupation which is concerned with the management of a place in respect of which the approval of the Secretary of State is required by section 1 or the Abortion Act 1967
 Any occupation in respect of which the holder, as occupier of premises on which explosives are kept, is required by an Order in Council made under section 43 of the Explosives Act 1875 to obtain from the police or a court of summary jurisdiction a certificate as to his fitness to keep explosives
 Taxi driver or private hire driver


Professions

 Medical Practitioner
 Advocate, Solicitor
 Chartered Accountant
 Dentist, Dental Hygienist, Dental Auxiliary
 Veterinary Surgeon
 Nurse, Midwife, Health Visitor
 Ophthalmic Optician, Dispensing Optician
 Pharmaceutical Chemist
 Registered Teacher
 Any profession to which the Professions Supplementary to Medicine Act 1960 applies and which is undertaken following registration under the Act
 Registered Osteopath
 Registered Chiropractor
 Chartered Psychologist
 Actuary
 Registered European Lawyer, Registered Foreign Lawyer
 Social Worker
Social Service Worker

You'll note that airline pilot is not included.

As for responsibilities aboard a civil transport aeroplane, you will find that the captain is not responsible for the pastoral and welfare care of children or vulnerable people on board; that is properly the responsibility of the airline and such specialist qualified personnel as it employs (who may themselves be subject to Standard or Advanced Disclosure). The Captain's care responsibility is limited to the safety of all occupants of the aircraft, irrelevant of their status - not the kind of responsibility envisaged by the legislation quoted above.

Unless they are very strange, your employer will ask for nothing more than Basic Disclosure, and the ROA applies in full. If they ask for more, you may reasonably ask what responsibilities they have in mind for you that require this higher level of disclosure.

Scroggs
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Old 13th Jan 2006, 22:04
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Re: Criminal Conviction A Problem?

Thanks scroggs, i guess that'll be the end of discussion. This man knows his stuff

(at least i was right about the captains duty of care! right for once!! )

AT
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Old 13th Jan 2006, 22:30
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Re: Criminal Conviction A Problem?

Ok, would having a caution for anything be something that stops you getting through ANY security checks on application to be a pilot??
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Old 13th Jan 2006, 22:43
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Re: Criminal Conviction A Problem?

In terms of the airline saying 'no'; I don't know.

In terms of gaining an airside pass; well, I followed the link to Disclosure Scotland provided by Scroggs in his first post. This is turn links to a page at the Department of Transport (clicky) which outlines the offences that would disqualify an applicant from obtaining an airside pass.

It would seem that the DfT set the criteria by which the issuance of an airside pass would be refused and they are not issued at the discretion of individual aiport security teams. As an example, a motoring conviction for speeding does not appear to preclude the issue of an airside pass.
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Old 13th Jan 2006, 23:52
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Re: Criminal Conviction A Problem?

Not only that, but the DfT site, through a letter from Petra Wilkinson, reveals that:

INTRODUCTION OF CRIMINAL RECORD CHECKS

You will be aware of the Department’s intention to require all permanent restricted zone (RZ) pass holders to undergo a criminal record check (CRC) at basic disclosure level. In summary:
• This will include all new and existing staff.
• RZ pass holders who currently have or who are applying for a Counter Terrorist Check (CTC) will not require a CRC check unless they are entering the RZ prior to completion of CTC.
New and existing RZ pass holders will be required to apply for their basic disclosure certificate and any unspent convictions will be checked against an agreed list of disqualifying convictions.
• A pass will not be issued if any of the disqualifying convictions appear on the disclosure certificate.
• Basic disclosure disqualifying criteria and CTC disqualifying criteria for criminal records will be harmonised.
That confirms that the issue of a permanent airside pass for the majority of airline employees is subject to a Basic Disclosure - as mine was.

Scroggs
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Old 18th Jan 2006, 11:24
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Amendment of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) Order 1975
2. The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) Order 1975[3] is hereby amended in accordance with the following provisions of this Order.

Amendment of article 3
3. - (1) In article 3(a)(ii) after the word "paragraph" there shall be inserted the words "12 or".

(2) In article 3(b) the words "the Civil Aviation Authority," shall be deleted.

(3) After article 3(b) there shall be inserted:


" (bb) any question asked by or on behalf of


(i) the Civil Aviation Authority,

(ii) any other person authorised to provide air traffic services under section 4 or section 5 of the Transport Act 2000[4] (in any case where such person is a company, an "authorised company"),

(iii) any company which is a subsidiary (within the meaning given by section 736(1) of the Companies Act 1985[5]) of an authorised company, or

(iv) any company of which an authorised company is a subsidiary,


where, in the case of sub-paragraphs (iii) and (iv) of this paragraph the question is put in relation to the provision of air traffic services, and in all cases, where the question is put in order to assess, for the purpose of safeguarding national security, the suitability of the person to whom the question relates or of any other person for any office or employment where the person questioned is informed at the time the question is asked that, by virtue of this Order, spent convictions are to be disclosed for the purpose of safeguarding national security;".

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/cgi-bin/htm_h...er_first_match

so it looks like you will have to declare any spent conviction to an airline if asked. Whether they wiil bother checking spent convictions is another matter.
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Old 18th Jan 2006, 11:34
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No, Rooney, I think you're wrong. As I understand it, this amendment applies only to the those organisations and companies providing Air Traffic Services and certain security services to or on behalf of the CAA, and not to airlines or other customers of the CAA.

In any case, in my experience, no pilots have been asked by the airlines or by BAA (or other airport operator) for greater than Basic Disclosure. That is the crux of the matter.

Scroggs
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Old 18th Jan 2006, 12:21
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Scroggs

I am indeed wrong, for this I apologise to you and all ppruners.
The exemptions order I quoted refers to jobs working for air traffic services, not for air transport services.

see sect 4/5 of the transport act for details. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00038--a.htm#4

So, as far as I can make out, the only employers to do with aviation who are exempt from the rehab of offenders act are the CAA themselves and anyone lisenced to provide air traffic services.
Makes sense, as imaging the havoc someone could cause if they were let loose in the ATC room of a major airport. That would indeed be a grave threat to national security.

This is great news for lewis, and indeed anyone else such as myself with some sort of spent misdemeanor in their past.

Just goes to show how easy it is to misinterpret legal documents, focusing in on one bit of information, without getting the full picture. There's a reason why we all are/ wannabe pilots and not lawyers!
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Old 18th Jan 2006, 12:44
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No problem. I have asked our HR Department to give me the official position as Virgin sees it; I believe it is as I have stated - and, of course, personally experienced - but I'll let you know when I get the definitive answer from them.

Remember, KR, I'm not a wannabe - I've been there, done it, and got several T-shirts!

Scroggs
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Old 26th Jan 2006, 07:06
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Fine

I got a fine from a magistrates court a year ago.

Does this mean i was convicted? and will it stop me from getting a job / airside pass?

thanks
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