Criminal Conviction A Problem?
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Originally Posted by scroggs
No problem. I have asked our HR Department to give me the official position as Virgin sees it; I believe it is as I have stated - and, of course, personally experienced - but I'll let you know when I get the definitive answer from them.
In response to your query about the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act in
relation to an applicant who has a spent conviction.
Air carriers could use an exemption under the act on the basis of national
security, however they currently fall in line with the Department for
Transport regulations which is enforced through the requirements of the
BAA to provide a basic disclosure before a restricted-zone ID is issued.
There is a list of disqualifying criteria so someone could still have a
conviction e.g. Driving under the influence of alcohol and be OK. The list
of disqualifying criteria can be found on HR Direct.
A basic disclosure, which the airline or an individual applies to
Disclosure Scotland for, should only disclose unspent convictions. If
they do disclose spent ones, my understanding is the individual (who is the
one to receive this information first) can appeal to Disclosure Scotland to
have it removed. It may be worth suggesting to him/her to apply for a
basic disclosure on line from Disclosure Scotland themselves (i.e. before
needing it officially) to put their mind at rest what may be disclosed.
It costs about £14.
It's important to point out that the requirements may change in future. If
they do, it is likely that Standard Disclosures will be the requirement,
this will show spent and unspent convictions. However, this is unlikely as
the current process for Standard is so involved it would give the airlines
an administration burden and delay recruitment to 2-3 months in most cases. It would be a similar situation to that which was experienced in
schools and hospitals.
In the meantime, can I suggest you refer him/her to the Disclosure
Scotland's website ( http://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/ ) and Apex Trust
( http://www.apextrust.com/ ) who are an independent source of information
to ex offenders about employment issues.
I hope this helps.
relation to an applicant who has a spent conviction.
Air carriers could use an exemption under the act on the basis of national
security, however they currently fall in line with the Department for
Transport regulations which is enforced through the requirements of the
BAA to provide a basic disclosure before a restricted-zone ID is issued.
There is a list of disqualifying criteria so someone could still have a
conviction e.g. Driving under the influence of alcohol and be OK. The list
of disqualifying criteria can be found on HR Direct.
A basic disclosure, which the airline or an individual applies to
Disclosure Scotland for, should only disclose unspent convictions. If
they do disclose spent ones, my understanding is the individual (who is the
one to receive this information first) can appeal to Disclosure Scotland to
have it removed. It may be worth suggesting to him/her to apply for a
basic disclosure on line from Disclosure Scotland themselves (i.e. before
needing it officially) to put their mind at rest what may be disclosed.
It costs about £14.
It's important to point out that the requirements may change in future. If
they do, it is likely that Standard Disclosures will be the requirement,
this will show spent and unspent convictions. However, this is unlikely as
the current process for Standard is so involved it would give the airlines
an administration burden and delay recruitment to 2-3 months in most cases. It would be a similar situation to that which was experienced in
schools and hospitals.
In the meantime, can I suggest you refer him/her to the Disclosure
Scotland's website ( http://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/ ) and Apex Trust
( http://www.apextrust.com/ ) who are an independent source of information
to ex offenders about employment issues.
I hope this helps.
Scroggs
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Jaz have a good read of this thread. Don't listen too much to people who make assumptions based on what they think or what they've heard rather than the real facts.
Scroggs
Scroggs
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Drink driving
Jaz,
Drink driving does not get you a criminal record so to speak, however it is recordable for home office statistics and a record will be created by the police (not criminal).
With regards to jobs, it depends on aggravating or mitigating circustances, for instance the legal limit is 35microgrammes for 100ML of breath, if you were anything close to this it would not normally matter.
With regards to the aviation industry, i can't be sure, as they are proper strict, the legal limit for pilots is 20MG of alcohol for 100ML of blood, comparing this with the limit for a driver which is 88MG of alcohol for 100ML of blood.
This probably does not answer your question, but some useless info for you.
Drink driving does not get you a criminal record so to speak, however it is recordable for home office statistics and a record will be created by the police (not criminal).
With regards to jobs, it depends on aggravating or mitigating circustances, for instance the legal limit is 35microgrammes for 100ML of breath, if you were anything close to this it would not normally matter.
With regards to the aviation industry, i can't be sure, as they are proper strict, the legal limit for pilots is 20MG of alcohol for 100ML of blood, comparing this with the limit for a driver which is 88MG of alcohol for 100ML of blood.
This probably does not answer your question, but some useless info for you.
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Becoming a Pilot - Criminal Record
Just wondering if anybody can give me an idea of having a criminal record would affect becoming a pilot. I am guessing that there's pretty much no problem taking lessons but what about with applying for license and then job prospects? Thanks.
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I'm in Ireland
AFAIR the criminal records check by Disclosure Scotland ONLY looks inside Great Britain, they dont even check Northern Ireland unless you have an address there. Yes its crazy but thats government at its best.
So thats a big YES to french mad axe murderers.
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Didn't see the original thread so sorry for posting in the wrong place originally.
I read through the details and in my case it seems like I would have to wait either 7 or 10 years before anything is possible if the details on the links are right.
Interesting on what you say about it only being English convictions though - it would be great to get an earlier chance that way. I'm sure they must do some checks though.
I read through the details and in my case it seems like I would have to wait either 7 or 10 years before anything is possible if the details on the links are right.
Interesting on what you say about it only being English convictions though - it would be great to get an earlier chance that way. I'm sure they must do some checks though.
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Originally Posted by JHM
Jaz,
Drink driving does not get you a criminal record so to speak, however it is recordable for home office statistics and a record will be created by the police (not criminal).
you.
Drink driving does not get you a criminal record so to speak, however it is recordable for home office statistics and a record will be created by the police (not criminal).
you.
Drink driving, if convicted, does give the offender a criminal record.
Regards
TLT
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Hello
Normally I'm a reader only, hence my first post!
I just want to clarify some of the points raised and clear some misunderstandings up, more from a legal standpoint as scroggs answered the rest quite admirably.
'jaz' drink drive IS a conviction, (you must have been tried and convicted in a court)
'up4it' if you received a fine, then it depends what for. Speeding convictions are generally not counted. Usually however you will not have attended (plea by post). If it is something more serious, and you were tried and convicted of an offence, then this will also count as a conviction.
'king rooney', Indecent exposure is slightly different in that under certain circumstances you are required to be placed on the Sex Offenders register. You would know whether this has taken place, without knowing details I wouldn't like to speculate.
'areofoil' a caution is not a criminal conviction, and so you are not required to declare it.
For a fine under the age of 17 after 2 1/2 years it will count as spent (5 years for an over 18) under the Rehab of Off Act 1974. So 'lewisS' your conviction would now be spent.
The main problem is that to obtain a US Visa, you are required to declare whether you have been arrested for an offence and if this results in a conviction then you may be permanantly ineligible to receive a visa, as they are exempt from the Rehab of Off Act 1974.
Of course whether of not you declare this is a matter for your own integrity. Some points to bear in mind:
If you are arrested for an offence (recordable) your fingerprints and DNA will be taken and these will be kept on file forever, irrespective of whether you are charged and sent to court.
Whilst your conviction may be spent after a period of time you may think that the Police will delete your record. Think again! Your record will be held on the Police National Computer indefinitely. It depends what checks the Us Embassy do as to whether they find this out.
I apologise if this has been covered before, having read the thread, it seems that there is a lot of 'well intentioned' advice that is perhaps not totally accurate. I hope I have cleared this up.
Good luck in your future employment.
Normally I'm a reader only, hence my first post!
I just want to clarify some of the points raised and clear some misunderstandings up, more from a legal standpoint as scroggs answered the rest quite admirably.
'jaz' drink drive IS a conviction, (you must have been tried and convicted in a court)
'up4it' if you received a fine, then it depends what for. Speeding convictions are generally not counted. Usually however you will not have attended (plea by post). If it is something more serious, and you were tried and convicted of an offence, then this will also count as a conviction.
'king rooney', Indecent exposure is slightly different in that under certain circumstances you are required to be placed on the Sex Offenders register. You would know whether this has taken place, without knowing details I wouldn't like to speculate.
'areofoil' a caution is not a criminal conviction, and so you are not required to declare it.
For a fine under the age of 17 after 2 1/2 years it will count as spent (5 years for an over 18) under the Rehab of Off Act 1974. So 'lewisS' your conviction would now be spent.
The main problem is that to obtain a US Visa, you are required to declare whether you have been arrested for an offence and if this results in a conviction then you may be permanantly ineligible to receive a visa, as they are exempt from the Rehab of Off Act 1974.
Of course whether of not you declare this is a matter for your own integrity. Some points to bear in mind:
If you are arrested for an offence (recordable) your fingerprints and DNA will be taken and these will be kept on file forever, irrespective of whether you are charged and sent to court.
Whilst your conviction may be spent after a period of time you may think that the Police will delete your record. Think again! Your record will be held on the Police National Computer indefinitely. It depends what checks the Us Embassy do as to whether they find this out.
I apologise if this has been covered before, having read the thread, it seems that there is a lot of 'well intentioned' advice that is perhaps not totally accurate. I hope I have cleared this up.
Good luck in your future employment.
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salad_man. If think you maybe a bit wrong with the caution thing.
Or maybe its a difference between Scots law and English.
And this is only what I believe and have been advised to do if nicked by a scottish bobby. And this was by a Scottish policeman.
If you accept a caution you accepting you are guilty of the charge. The police then issue you the caution. This is then recorded by the scottish criminal records office. And for ever more it comes up if the police do a check on you. With the standard rules about it lapsing.
If you refuse to accept the caution the police then have to forward it to the proc fiscal. Then they make the call if to take it to court or not.
9 times out of 10 if the police know they have enough evidence to secure a prosecution the caution will not be on offer. So if you do get one offered it usually because they know they are on shakey ground and the PF won't go ahead or because of social and economic reasons the whole proccess is going to cost more in police time and court costs than would be recovered. In scotland the crown always pays the costs for bring a prosecution.
The caution system is there so they can quickly record your wrong doings without using up court time and money. Then when you have taken the piss to much they get you for the whole lot in one go. They might only charge you with one offense but the sheriff will take into account you have been naughty before when sentencing you.
So if you have been cautioned in scotland it will come up on your record. Because you have pleaded guilty to the police and they have recorded it and released you with no punishment.
https://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk...ERTIFICATE.pdf
This is the sample report You can see there is a section for reprimands warnings and cautions.
I don't think the central computer system in England records the cautions so any cautions are only available locally where you got Knicked. So if you have been cautioned in England it won't show up yet.
Or maybe its a difference between Scots law and English.
And this is only what I believe and have been advised to do if nicked by a scottish bobby. And this was by a Scottish policeman.
If you accept a caution you accepting you are guilty of the charge. The police then issue you the caution. This is then recorded by the scottish criminal records office. And for ever more it comes up if the police do a check on you. With the standard rules about it lapsing.
If you refuse to accept the caution the police then have to forward it to the proc fiscal. Then they make the call if to take it to court or not.
9 times out of 10 if the police know they have enough evidence to secure a prosecution the caution will not be on offer. So if you do get one offered it usually because they know they are on shakey ground and the PF won't go ahead or because of social and economic reasons the whole proccess is going to cost more in police time and court costs than would be recovered. In scotland the crown always pays the costs for bring a prosecution.
The caution system is there so they can quickly record your wrong doings without using up court time and money. Then when you have taken the piss to much they get you for the whole lot in one go. They might only charge you with one offense but the sheriff will take into account you have been naughty before when sentencing you.
So if you have been cautioned in scotland it will come up on your record. Because you have pleaded guilty to the police and they have recorded it and released you with no punishment.
https://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk...ERTIFICATE.pdf
This is the sample report You can see there is a section for reprimands warnings and cautions.
I don't think the central computer system in England records the cautions so any cautions are only available locally where you got Knicked. So if you have been cautioned in England it won't show up yet.
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Hello mad_jock.
You are right and wrong. To be given a caution means that you must first admit the offence, and then agree to be given a caution. And as you say the Police can take this into consideration should you come to notice again.
Also as you say, if you don't agree to be cautioned then the Police have no choice but to charge you and send to court.
"9 times out of 10 if the police know they have enough evidence to secure a prosecution the caution will not be on offer. So if you do get one offered it usually because they know they are on shakey ground and the PF won't go ahead or because of social and economic reasons the whole proccess is going to cost more in police time and court costs than would be recovered. "
This is not correct. For the Police to give a caution then they must have sufficient evidence to secure a successful prosecution at court, (on the basis that if the person does not agree to be cautioned then they have to be charged and taken to court.)
"The caution system is there so they can quickly record your wrong doings without using up court time and money. Then when you have taken the piss to much they get you for the whole lot in one go. They might only charge you with one offense but the sheriff will take into account you have been naughty before when sentencing you."
Up to a point that is true. But they are there for first time offenders to give them a 'chance' before going down the court route in the hope that they will learn from their mistake. People with past convictions almost never get cautioned. Also this only applies to simple petty offences. Someone for robbery would never get cautioned and neither would drink drive type offences.
"I don't think the central computer system in England records the cautions so any cautions are only available locally where you got Knicked. So if you have been cautioned in England it won't show up yet."
This is not correct I'm afraid, all cautions, whether adult or juvenile, are recorded on the Police National Computer and have been for at least 20 years, probably a lot more.
As you say it may be the difference between the Scottish Law and English Law.
You are right and wrong. To be given a caution means that you must first admit the offence, and then agree to be given a caution. And as you say the Police can take this into consideration should you come to notice again.
Also as you say, if you don't agree to be cautioned then the Police have no choice but to charge you and send to court.
"9 times out of 10 if the police know they have enough evidence to secure a prosecution the caution will not be on offer. So if you do get one offered it usually because they know they are on shakey ground and the PF won't go ahead or because of social and economic reasons the whole proccess is going to cost more in police time and court costs than would be recovered. "
This is not correct. For the Police to give a caution then they must have sufficient evidence to secure a successful prosecution at court, (on the basis that if the person does not agree to be cautioned then they have to be charged and taken to court.)
"The caution system is there so they can quickly record your wrong doings without using up court time and money. Then when you have taken the piss to much they get you for the whole lot in one go. They might only charge you with one offense but the sheriff will take into account you have been naughty before when sentencing you."
Up to a point that is true. But they are there for first time offenders to give them a 'chance' before going down the court route in the hope that they will learn from their mistake. People with past convictions almost never get cautioned. Also this only applies to simple petty offences. Someone for robbery would never get cautioned and neither would drink drive type offences.
"I don't think the central computer system in England records the cautions so any cautions are only available locally where you got Knicked. So if you have been cautioned in England it won't show up yet."
This is not correct I'm afraid, all cautions, whether adult or juvenile, are recorded on the Police National Computer and have been for at least 20 years, probably a lot more.
As you say it may be the difference between the Scottish Law and English Law.
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I think you are proberly right and I am wrong. Having not had anything to do with either a caution or a conviction.
But still if you had a caution would it be classed as a conviction and thus no airside pass.?
But still if you had a caution would it be classed as a conviction and thus no airside pass.?
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LewisS you might find this of interest. It's part of a letter I've just recieved from BA Connect regarding my application for a Security Passes on the IOM.
Background Checking - Criminal Record Check
Due to othe nature of business conducted, it is considered that security of the Airport is a matter of national security. Therefore the provisions of the Rehabiliation of Offenders Act DO NOT APPLY and details of all convictions, cautions, reprimands, binding over orders etc, must be declared.
I think this is probably exculsive to the Isle of Man but non the less something to think about.
All the best.
Background Checking - Criminal Record Check
Due to othe nature of business conducted, it is considered that security of the Airport is a matter of national security. Therefore the provisions of the Rehabiliation of Offenders Act DO NOT APPLY and details of all convictions, cautions, reprimands, binding over orders etc, must be declared.
I think this is probably exculsive to the Isle of Man but non the less something to think about.
All the best.
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v12,
That seems a bit extreme!
on a different note, how can they find out if you have a spent conviction? A quick read of this document:
http://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/...G%20POLICY.pdf
will explain the "weeding out" process of Police Records. It states:
This implies that the whole Police Record is deleted after a certain period of time. So, for example, if you had a caution 10 years ago, then as long as it wasn't against a "vulnerable person" you should have no Police record. Therefore if you answer "no" to that question - how could they prove differently?
DW.
That seems a bit extreme!
on a different note, how can they find out if you have a spent conviction? A quick read of this document:
http://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/...G%20POLICY.pdf
will explain the "weeding out" process of Police Records. It states:
Cautions, police reprimands and final warnings also form part of the police record. If there are cautions
but no convictions on the record and no further cautions have been recorded for a period of five years,
the record will be deleted, except where the caution is accompanied by an 'offence against vulnerable
person' information marker. If there are police reprimands or final warnings but no convictions on the
record, the reprimands and warnings will be retained until the offender has attained the age of eighteen
years and for a minimum period of five years. After attaining the age of eighteen years and if no police
reprimands or final warnings have been recorded for a period of five years, the record will be deleted.
but no convictions on the record and no further cautions have been recorded for a period of five years,
the record will be deleted, except where the caution is accompanied by an 'offence against vulnerable
person' information marker. If there are police reprimands or final warnings but no convictions on the
record, the reprimands and warnings will be retained until the offender has attained the age of eighteen
years and for a minimum period of five years. After attaining the age of eighteen years and if no police
reprimands or final warnings have been recorded for a period of five years, the record will be deleted.
DW.
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V12,
I wasn't questioning you just wondering how someone can ask for something that isn't required by virtually any other area in the country, and potentially couldn't be proved / disproved.
I hate to think that a minor misdemeanour by someone many years ago should continue to count against them if they have learned from it, and been trouble free since. It seems from your post that the IOM do not believe can change for the better, and need to be pilloried for ever!
As far as Lewiss is concerned - he has been posting in the Professional training forums - so I'm hoping he got the answer he wanted on his disclosure form, and is now "enjoying" the ATPL theory studies!!!
I wasn't questioning you
just wondering how someone can ask for something that isn't required by virtually any other area in the country, and potentially couldn't be proved / disproved.I hate to think that a minor misdemeanour by someone many years ago should continue to count against them if they have learned from it, and been trouble free since. It seems from your post that the IOM do not believe can change for the better, and need to be pilloried for ever!
As far as Lewiss is concerned - he has been posting in the Professional training forums - so I'm hoping he got the answer he wanted on his disclosure form, and is now "enjoying" the ATPL theory studies!!!
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Driving offences
Just wanted to know if anyone could advise me on whether my past driving convictions might preclude my getting an airside pass and line job???
I am currently 34
The black marks are:
Careless driving 1991 8pts
Disqualified for speeding for 6 mths 1998
Driving whilst disqualified(for above speeding)Doh! 1998
Disqualified for speeding for 21days 2004
SP30 GATSO 3 pts 2004
I've been advised on the spent rules by D.SCOT and have applied for a Basic level cert but knowing that everything involving uk police records is shown including spent driving convictions on the standard and advanced record is a worry since i am half way into my ATPL GS.
Please advise if you have any specific experience of this or knowledge of the 'normal' line views.
Many thanks all 
I am currently 34
The black marks are:
Careless driving 1991 8pts
Disqualified for speeding for 6 mths 1998
Driving whilst disqualified(for above speeding)Doh! 1998
Disqualified for speeding for 21days 2004
SP30 GATSO 3 pts 2004
I've been advised on the spent rules by D.SCOT and have applied for a Basic level cert but knowing that everything involving uk police records is shown including spent driving convictions on the standard and advanced record is a worry since i am half way into my ATPL GS.
Please advise if you have any specific experience of this or knowledge of the 'normal' line views.
Many thanks all
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I take it you haven't bothered reading the rest of this thread? If you had, you'd have found links to sites that tell you about the offences that are incompatible with pass issue etc.
However, with that kind of driving history you might find that employers have quite justified doubts about your reponsibility.
Scroggs
However, with that kind of driving history you might find that employers have quite justified doubts about your reponsibility.
Scroggs
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Scroggs,
Thanks for the hint, I didn't go right back to the start before but have now read all the posts both relevant and complete tosh. Your HR info and link to the DfT site was most helpful.
Before I go on, If you have a passion for motorbikes, as have I, you will know speeding does become easy on modern superbikes and although I don't condone breaking the law,and i do regret and have learned from the events, I do believe that the rider/driver should be fully in control at all times and act sensibly within their ability. (Just as any us govern our own actions when acting as a pilot) Slate that if you wish but with regard to your employer remark;
Scroggs quoted:
You are not legally required to reveal any conviction that is spent. You have the full backing of the law to withold that information. The employer has no right to demand it. There is no suggestion of lying. The question must always take the form, "Bearing in mind the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, do you have any convictions?". If your conviction is spent, you have none to declare.
And in addition to my comment above- I hold a Directorship, employ 15 persons and have young family--one lives and learns!
Subsequent to my first post here, I have been in touch with a training provider with close airline links who advised that- A basic disclosure is all that is required for the RZ pass the company employing may (discretionary) require a standard disclosure and driving convictions are not relevant.
Case closed.
By the way, are you open for light discussion about your particular working environment??
Thanks for the hint, I didn't go right back to the start before but have now read all the posts both relevant and complete tosh. Your HR info and link to the DfT site was most helpful.
Before I go on, If you have a passion for motorbikes, as have I, you will know speeding does become easy on modern superbikes and although I don't condone breaking the law,and i do regret and have learned from the events, I do believe that the rider/driver should be fully in control at all times and act sensibly within their ability. (Just as any us govern our own actions when acting as a pilot) Slate that if you wish but with regard to your employer remark;
Scroggs quoted:
You are not legally required to reveal any conviction that is spent. You have the full backing of the law to withold that information. The employer has no right to demand it. There is no suggestion of lying. The question must always take the form, "Bearing in mind the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, do you have any convictions?". If your conviction is spent, you have none to declare.
And in addition to my comment above- I hold a Directorship, employ 15 persons and have young family--one lives and learns!
Subsequent to my first post here, I have been in touch with a training provider with close airline links who advised that- A basic disclosure is all that is required for the RZ pass the company employing may (discretionary) require a standard disclosure and driving convictions are not relevant.
Case closed.
By the way, are you open for light discussion about your particular working environment??
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Oh, I understand. I was a biker, and my brother is a DIA/RoSPA Advanced Instructor and Examiner. We both have managed to keep our licences points-free, fortunately.
The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, as it refers to motoring offences, is detailed here. Basically, any fine or a disqualification of less than 5 years carries a rehabilitation period of 5 years. If your disqualifications carried associated fines and are not spent, they will appear in your Basic Disclosure and you may well be asked about them at interview (hence my comment about responsibility), but they will not affect an application for an airside pass.
For information about Virgin, please see this thread. If that doesn't answer your questions, by all means PM me.
Scroggs
The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, as it refers to motoring offences, is detailed here. Basically, any fine or a disqualification of less than 5 years carries a rehabilitation period of 5 years. If your disqualifications carried associated fines and are not spent, they will appear in your Basic Disclosure and you may well be asked about them at interview (hence my comment about responsibility), but they will not affect an application for an airside pass.
For information about Virgin, please see this thread. If that doesn't answer your questions, by all means PM me.
Scroggs