B737 job at Global Aviation Solutions?
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Hey bigbob - maybe it's escaped your attention ( and I know I'm repeating myself when I say this ) but - except for a very small group that are fortunate enough to be fully sponsored - every training provider has been making a profit off your endeavours ( which is, after all, why they are in business ) – this extends from the school / flying-‘club’ that gave you your first lesson right through to the CAA who might eventually issue you with a shiny jet type-rating..... but we don't hear you bleating about that !
Perhaps an analogy is that it’s similar to when you took to gaining your driving license wherein you paid your driving school so much per hour.
However, using your logic, you would be arguing that you really should only pay for the petrol that you’ve used, which would therefore prohibit the school from making provision for administration costs, wear & tear on the training vehicle, accruing of funds for eventual vehicle replacement, recruitment & training of driving instructors plus any (re)training / (re)licensing requirements they may need, the pay of the instructors and admin staff, vehicle / company licensing & insurance, etc.... to say nothing of trying to make a modest profit.
All of your training providers have made a profit, regardless of whether you may have passed / failed – they’re in the training business <-- with the emphasis on that last word.
You wrote above ‘I don't know of any airlines that charge for a selection procedure’ – well how about RyanAir ? ( see: RyanAir Pilot Applications )
RyanAir will charge you £50 just to apply ( on-line ), and then a further £150 to look at you in the sim – where this requires that you are already type-rated on the B737 - albeit that this money is refundable if they give you a job.
Nb. They’re actually making a loss on this, which is not like O’Leary ( perhaps I should give him a call ).
Furthermore, I have never been to an airline interview where they’ve offered to refund my travel and / or out of pocket expenses, and so yet more expense on the way to the shiny jet cockpit.
Now as I understand it, the GAS ‘assessment’ is just that; it is not, as you put it, a ‘selection’, as there is nothing to be selected for.
It is a chance for wannabe airline pilots to put themselves through a completely realistic airline interview / selection process ( complete with psychometric tests, interviews and simulator assessment ), albeit without the pressure of a job riding on the outcome.
What the wannabes get at the end of the day is not a pass or fail. They get debriefed and are told what they need to work on in order to improve their future success when, hopefully, they are doing this for actual employment with an airline ( and are therein up against everybody else ).
That said, some of the wannabes who attend the assessment actually have ‘what it takes’ to complete the transition to a modern shiny jet, but it is up to them to decide if they wish to take the risk of paying for a type-rating; just as it was up to them when they took the risk of getting involved with aviation in the first place – wherein from the outset there have been NO GUARANTEES !
Perhaps an analogy is that it’s similar to when you took to gaining your driving license wherein you paid your driving school so much per hour.
However, using your logic, you would be arguing that you really should only pay for the petrol that you’ve used, which would therefore prohibit the school from making provision for administration costs, wear & tear on the training vehicle, accruing of funds for eventual vehicle replacement, recruitment & training of driving instructors plus any (re)training / (re)licensing requirements they may need, the pay of the instructors and admin staff, vehicle / company licensing & insurance, etc.... to say nothing of trying to make a modest profit.
All of your training providers have made a profit, regardless of whether you may have passed / failed – they’re in the training business <-- with the emphasis on that last word.
You wrote above ‘I don't know of any airlines that charge for a selection procedure’ – well how about RyanAir ? ( see: RyanAir Pilot Applications )
RyanAir will charge you £50 just to apply ( on-line ), and then a further £150 to look at you in the sim – where this requires that you are already type-rated on the B737 - albeit that this money is refundable if they give you a job.
Nb. They’re actually making a loss on this, which is not like O’Leary ( perhaps I should give him a call ).
Furthermore, I have never been to an airline interview where they’ve offered to refund my travel and / or out of pocket expenses, and so yet more expense on the way to the shiny jet cockpit.
Now as I understand it, the GAS ‘assessment’ is just that; it is not, as you put it, a ‘selection’, as there is nothing to be selected for.
It is a chance for wannabe airline pilots to put themselves through a completely realistic airline interview / selection process ( complete with psychometric tests, interviews and simulator assessment ), albeit without the pressure of a job riding on the outcome.
What the wannabes get at the end of the day is not a pass or fail. They get debriefed and are told what they need to work on in order to improve their future success when, hopefully, they are doing this for actual employment with an airline ( and are therein up against everybody else ).
That said, some of the wannabes who attend the assessment actually have ‘what it takes’ to complete the transition to a modern shiny jet, but it is up to them to decide if they wish to take the risk of paying for a type-rating; just as it was up to them when they took the risk of getting involved with aviation in the first place – wherein from the outset there have been NO GUARANTEES !
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CH4,
The most important question that I have not seen answered is simple:
CTC = work at Easyjet when succesfull
CAE/GECAT = work at Ryanair if succesfull
Astreaus/Bond = change of work at Astreaus if succesfull
Global ?????
Very nice that you have all these highly paid, succesfull people as part of your team but what counts at the end of the day what does it mean for future of the person paying.
If no job: stay away!
So the question is who are you training for if at all???
Point two: your experience in Seattle with their instructors does not gives a fair evaluation of the level of adaptability of of TRTO's like SAS, CAE, GECAT to meet the footprints of other airlines. TRTO's have been making large changes to their attitudes to training programs and the "standard" Boeing course is nowadays only given if specially requested! The cost of a proper TRTO is usually lower than what you charge as you only are adding an unneccessay layer. That is unless you have cheaper instructors and sims... which usually means midnight slots...
TRTO's have usually more experience than a particular airline because they see all the SOP's of loyts of airlines and thus have the best gradsp ofr what ius required and adappt this to the clients needs!
The most important question that I have not seen answered is simple:
CTC = work at Easyjet when succesfull
CAE/GECAT = work at Ryanair if succesfull
Astreaus/Bond = change of work at Astreaus if succesfull
Global ?????
Very nice that you have all these highly paid, succesfull people as part of your team but what counts at the end of the day what does it mean for future of the person paying.
If no job: stay away!
So the question is who are you training for if at all???
Point two: your experience in Seattle with their instructors does not gives a fair evaluation of the level of adaptability of of TRTO's like SAS, CAE, GECAT to meet the footprints of other airlines. TRTO's have been making large changes to their attitudes to training programs and the "standard" Boeing course is nowadays only given if specially requested! The cost of a proper TRTO is usually lower than what you charge as you only are adding an unneccessay layer. That is unless you have cheaper instructors and sims... which usually means midnight slots...
My point in replying is that, yes, generally we are flexible enough to be able to train pilots 'in the same footprint', concerning SOP's and company ethos, normally. Why is this so? Well, unlike most training organisations, we actually have a pretty good idea, where the pilot is ultimately destined to go to and we can match that footprint; i.e. we can train explicitly to that airline's SOP's, which is something you will not normally get from an 'off the shelf type rating organisation'.
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trainer too 2 here’s a question for you: If CH4 does have the airline jobs would you then say that he is welcome to stay ( rather than keep away ) ?
Now I can't speak for CH4 but, in answer to your question, one might suggest that, for the person paying, what they are getting for their money is the opportunity to learn from the ( as you say ) 'successful people' ( they being people who assuredly get paid a lot due to their experience and ability to teach ).
That said, I've seen some TRTO's who employ whomever they can get, wherein the quality of the training can be very hit-and-miss.
However the people behind GAS ( read Storm & Bond/Astraeus ) have a long track record of providing quality training at all levels and one sees no reason why this should not continue, especially given that a lot of valuable reputations are riding on the back of it – it’s in nobodies interest to provide a second rate / sub-standard service.
On the subject of midnight sim slots, if ( from your handle ) you are indeed involved in training you should know that initial type-conversions are not supposed to be conducted using either very late or very early sims – the Authorities do not like it, indeed I believe they don’t allow it, as it’s not conducive to the learning process.
W.r.t. your comment on airline SOP’s and the ‘experience’ of the TRTO’s that teach them.
Let me remind you that it is not the job of the TRTO to interpret or pass judgement upon the SOP’s of any particular airline – their job is simply to teach the SOP’s and no more.
In any event, I think you'll find that RyanAir's, EasyJet's and Astraeus’s procedures either are, or very close to, ‘standard Boeing’ - and just why is this ?
Well it means that airlines who subscribe to ‘the Boeing way’ do not then have to make any investment in re-writing their manuals & procedures, they simply take what Mr.Boeing tells them is the correct / best way to operate his aircraft - and after all, he should know – and thereafter it’s all a bit of a no-brainer.
Ps. I very much liked your contribution about RyanAir
Now I can't speak for CH4 but, in answer to your question, one might suggest that, for the person paying, what they are getting for their money is the opportunity to learn from the ( as you say ) 'successful people' ( they being people who assuredly get paid a lot due to their experience and ability to teach ).
That said, I've seen some TRTO's who employ whomever they can get, wherein the quality of the training can be very hit-and-miss.
However the people behind GAS ( read Storm & Bond/Astraeus ) have a long track record of providing quality training at all levels and one sees no reason why this should not continue, especially given that a lot of valuable reputations are riding on the back of it – it’s in nobodies interest to provide a second rate / sub-standard service.
On the subject of midnight sim slots, if ( from your handle ) you are indeed involved in training you should know that initial type-conversions are not supposed to be conducted using either very late or very early sims – the Authorities do not like it, indeed I believe they don’t allow it, as it’s not conducive to the learning process.
W.r.t. your comment on airline SOP’s and the ‘experience’ of the TRTO’s that teach them.
Let me remind you that it is not the job of the TRTO to interpret or pass judgement upon the SOP’s of any particular airline – their job is simply to teach the SOP’s and no more.
In any event, I think you'll find that RyanAir's, EasyJet's and Astraeus’s procedures either are, or very close to, ‘standard Boeing’ - and just why is this ?
Well it means that airlines who subscribe to ‘the Boeing way’ do not then have to make any investment in re-writing their manuals & procedures, they simply take what Mr.Boeing tells them is the correct / best way to operate his aircraft - and after all, he should know – and thereafter it’s all a bit of a no-brainer.
Ps. I very much liked your contribution about RyanAir
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Hello all, I want to become a nurse and I've just finished my initial "first-aid training". Now I'm planning to pay 35000 euros for this brand new training course on the insertion of a temporary transvenous ventricular pacemakers, and then I'm ready to pay 200 euros for any open heart surgery. A have a list of hospitals who are ready to "lease" me a few patients (because they think the cardiologists already available on the market are too expensive), so if I pass the course I think I should be okay. And maybe that in 10 years all my debts will be cleared and I'll just have only 30 years to pay back the house, the cars, my 4 divorces, etc. Wish me luck !
Yeah, go ahead kid...
And now, for something completely different: Darwinian laws of evolution ! I see a lot of people justifying the fact that desperate and/or inexperienced pilots are buying type ratings and paying to take another pilot's job by the simple law of "supply and demand". Ok, we live in urban jungles, that's a point of view.
Now what about "survival of the fittest" ? There's a RH seat to fill in a B737, and a lot of applicants. On my left, an airline pilot with 3000 hours on the 737 who lost his job in one of the recent airline bankrupties. On my right, a young and promising pilot, fresh from FTO, ready to do anything to get the job although he's already in a quite serious financial situation. Who should get the job ? First the airline pilot, that's common sense. Who will get the job ? The young pilot, because the bean counters love that kind of attitude: "Competent people doing a tough job for nothing, even ready to pay for it ? Wow, give me two !". It also pays the rent of guys like CH4, that's even better, the young pilot now also supports the housing industry.
I guess CH4 is used to critics and antipathy. It seems he manages to sleep quite well (just for that I think he deserves our most sincere congratulations), but I'm not sure his promising, self-promoting and entreprising customers are prepared to the hostility that they will probably face from their collegues. It would be quite unfortunate, degrading further the "atmosphere" between us, etc. but in the end who cares ? We're living in urban jungles, rignt ?
Yeah, go ahead kid...
And now, for something completely different: Darwinian laws of evolution ! I see a lot of people justifying the fact that desperate and/or inexperienced pilots are buying type ratings and paying to take another pilot's job by the simple law of "supply and demand". Ok, we live in urban jungles, that's a point of view.
Now what about "survival of the fittest" ? There's a RH seat to fill in a B737, and a lot of applicants. On my left, an airline pilot with 3000 hours on the 737 who lost his job in one of the recent airline bankrupties. On my right, a young and promising pilot, fresh from FTO, ready to do anything to get the job although he's already in a quite serious financial situation. Who should get the job ? First the airline pilot, that's common sense. Who will get the job ? The young pilot, because the bean counters love that kind of attitude: "Competent people doing a tough job for nothing, even ready to pay for it ? Wow, give me two !". It also pays the rent of guys like CH4, that's even better, the young pilot now also supports the housing industry.
I guess CH4 is used to critics and antipathy. It seems he manages to sleep quite well (just for that I think he deserves our most sincere congratulations), but I'm not sure his promising, self-promoting and entreprising customers are prepared to the hostility that they will probably face from their collegues. It would be quite unfortunate, degrading further the "atmosphere" between us, etc. but in the end who cares ? We're living in urban jungles, rignt ?
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Stratocruiser, w.r.t.
and
..... these must surely rank as some of the stupidest things I've seen written on PPRuNe in a very long while !
Now I don't know which airline you work for but if that’s how your lot carry on, then, well, words defeat me – and you deserve what you get.
Now I work at an airline that employs a fair number of low-houred folks, many of whom have indeed paid for their own type-ratings, and they are all terrific people and very capable pilots ( and they need to be, or else we won’t employ them ) and I have yet to see ( ever ) any of this surmised 'hostility' that you suggest is awaiting them - and if we did see it then the perpetrators would be severely dealt with in short order - but like I say, I've never seen it !
Also, the airline I work for have recently recruited several very experienced pilots, and several low hour self-funded pilots, so what you suggest about who gets recruited is codswallop !
but I'm not sure his promising, self-promoting and entreprising customers are prepared to the hostility that they will probably face from their collegues.
degrading further the "atmosphere" between us
Now I don't know which airline you work for but if that’s how your lot carry on, then, well, words defeat me – and you deserve what you get.
Now I work at an airline that employs a fair number of low-houred folks, many of whom have indeed paid for their own type-ratings, and they are all terrific people and very capable pilots ( and they need to be, or else we won’t employ them ) and I have yet to see ( ever ) any of this surmised 'hostility' that you suggest is awaiting them - and if we did see it then the perpetrators would be severely dealt with in short order - but like I say, I've never seen it !
Also, the airline I work for have recently recruited several very experienced pilots, and several low hour self-funded pilots, so what you suggest about who gets recruited is codswallop !
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Don't give up now, Your Highness ! I'm sure you too will soon find a terrific job with a nice operator who:
- also hires the same number of experienced and junior pilots
- but respects the already tough efforts of the self-funded pilots by not forcing them to pay for the type rating if they want the job, and
- does not take advantage of the desastrous situation of our community by charging line training flights, and
- deals with any hard feeling that might rise between employees by trying to actually solve the problem (give the opportunity to all to voice their concerns or frustrations, exchange opinions and find a way out of a crisis), instead of taking harsh disciplinary measures (making things even worse).
I see a light at the end of the tunnel, don't give up. Afterall, Jesus loves you too !
- also hires the same number of experienced and junior pilots
- but respects the already tough efforts of the self-funded pilots by not forcing them to pay for the type rating if they want the job, and
- does not take advantage of the desastrous situation of our community by charging line training flights, and
- deals with any hard feeling that might rise between employees by trying to actually solve the problem (give the opportunity to all to voice their concerns or frustrations, exchange opinions and find a way out of a crisis), instead of taking harsh disciplinary measures (making things even worse).
I see a light at the end of the tunnel, don't give up. Afterall, Jesus loves you too !
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Strato... what are you on about ( or should that be 'what are you on' ) ?!
And please don't bring some supposed god and / or his supposed disciples into this - it's anathema and of no particular relevance here.
W.r.t. giving up, I never did - which might have something to do with why I've now got a cushty job flying nice shiny jets for a top operation.
Ps. Beware of lights at the end of tunnels, it might be an express train !
And please don't bring some supposed god and / or his supposed disciples into this - it's anathema and of no particular relevance here.
W.r.t. giving up, I never did - which might have something to do with why I've now got a cushty job flying nice shiny jets for a top operation.
Ps. Beware of lights at the end of tunnels, it might be an express train !
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I'm actually enjoying taking a bit of a 'back seat' here and watching the debate for a while. OKC seems to talk a lot of sense here; but I would say that wouldn't I, because he shares many similar views to me. And before anyone accuses me of being OKC, think again, it most definitely is not me and NO he doesn't work for me either.
One point I would like to pick up on is something Strato said;
'inexperienced pilots are buying type ratings and paying to take another pilot's job by the simple law of "supply and demand". '
Pray, please tell me just whose job is anyone taking here? I'm confused, so perhaps you can enlighten me?
That is the whole point of what we are doing, we are training pilots to supply the demand that the market has. These are new jobs that are becoming available in the market place; no-one is being replaced by us providing new talent.
I know who my airline customers are and I know how many pilots they want from me. I'm not however going to divulge that information here, for obvious reasons. I was foolish enough recently, only trying to be helpful, in divulging in a telephone call to one interested pilot who one of my airline customers was, where I have a firm order for pilots. What did he do? He contacted said airline immediately to verify whether I was telling the truth! My airline customers do not want calls from every 'tom, dick and harry' asking such things. They are very busy and that's why they commission me to assist them and supply them with the crews they need. That wasn't a very smart move on behalf of said pilot, if you think about it. No damage done, in this instance, but there could have been.
My point is, there is a considerable shortage of good, qualified and type rated pilots in the market place, in the EU. That will get progressively worse as time goes on.
I am looking for type rated, experienced pilots right now that I am having difficulty in providing. We advertise worldwide over the internet and in the main pilot media, but they still are not there! That's why we are now 'training to order' basically.
I happen to know how many pilots airlines like Ryanair and Easyjet expect to take on next year and all I will say is that it is a huge number. My own view is, that even if we see a 'catastrophic failure' of a major carrier before next spring, such a failure will only delay the need for new type rated pilots, and not by that long either! Many airlines are hoping that might be the case, because it will only help them with their problem.
Given the above, I am now looking for experienced F/O's and Captains to type rate, to fill the gap and also provide the balance of experience required by my customers. To give you an example an experienced Captain, with the wrong type on his licence (e.g. 146, MD80) can expect a direct entry position if he has the right type on his licence (e.g. Boeing or Airbus); same goes for experienced F/O's, either on turboprops or similar redundant jet types.
I'm a bit weary now of defending what is a genuine opportunity for a pilot that wants to get on with his carreer. If you don't want to sign up, then please don't, but stop 'knocking' those that do. If you reckon that the market will change again and will 'revert back' to paying for your type rating, my only caution would be that you may face a long, cold wait! But I don't determine the market, sorry.
CH4
One point I would like to pick up on is something Strato said;
'inexperienced pilots are buying type ratings and paying to take another pilot's job by the simple law of "supply and demand". '
Pray, please tell me just whose job is anyone taking here? I'm confused, so perhaps you can enlighten me?
That is the whole point of what we are doing, we are training pilots to supply the demand that the market has. These are new jobs that are becoming available in the market place; no-one is being replaced by us providing new talent.
I know who my airline customers are and I know how many pilots they want from me. I'm not however going to divulge that information here, for obvious reasons. I was foolish enough recently, only trying to be helpful, in divulging in a telephone call to one interested pilot who one of my airline customers was, where I have a firm order for pilots. What did he do? He contacted said airline immediately to verify whether I was telling the truth! My airline customers do not want calls from every 'tom, dick and harry' asking such things. They are very busy and that's why they commission me to assist them and supply them with the crews they need. That wasn't a very smart move on behalf of said pilot, if you think about it. No damage done, in this instance, but there could have been.
My point is, there is a considerable shortage of good, qualified and type rated pilots in the market place, in the EU. That will get progressively worse as time goes on.
I am looking for type rated, experienced pilots right now that I am having difficulty in providing. We advertise worldwide over the internet and in the main pilot media, but they still are not there! That's why we are now 'training to order' basically.
I happen to know how many pilots airlines like Ryanair and Easyjet expect to take on next year and all I will say is that it is a huge number. My own view is, that even if we see a 'catastrophic failure' of a major carrier before next spring, such a failure will only delay the need for new type rated pilots, and not by that long either! Many airlines are hoping that might be the case, because it will only help them with their problem.
Given the above, I am now looking for experienced F/O's and Captains to type rate, to fill the gap and also provide the balance of experience required by my customers. To give you an example an experienced Captain, with the wrong type on his licence (e.g. 146, MD80) can expect a direct entry position if he has the right type on his licence (e.g. Boeing or Airbus); same goes for experienced F/O's, either on turboprops or similar redundant jet types.
I'm a bit weary now of defending what is a genuine opportunity for a pilot that wants to get on with his carreer. If you don't want to sign up, then please don't, but stop 'knocking' those that do. If you reckon that the market will change again and will 'revert back' to paying for your type rating, my only caution would be that you may face a long, cold wait! But I don't determine the market, sorry.
CH4
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Greetings,
'inexperienced pilots are buying type ratings and paying to take another pilot's job by the simple law of "supply and demand". '
Pray, please tell me just whose job is anyone taking here? I'm confused, so perhaps you can enlighten me?
Is Global Aviation Solutions providing pilots mainly to AEU?
What about the pilots there?
Are they then expanding so much? so they can introduce new F/O from global and keep all the temporary contracted guys at the same time.
Well, Well, Well
Safe flying,
...
'inexperienced pilots are buying type ratings and paying to take another pilot's job by the simple law of "supply and demand". '
Pray, please tell me just whose job is anyone taking here? I'm confused, so perhaps you can enlighten me?
Is Global Aviation Solutions providing pilots mainly to AEU?
What about the pilots there?
Are they then expanding so much? so they can introduce new F/O from global and keep all the temporary contracted guys at the same time.
Well, Well, Well
Safe flying,
...
As an aside, I Emailed Global Aviation Solutions on another matter as I don't meet the maximum age for the scheme, and would you believe it, 4 weeks on I'm still without a reply. Read into that what you will, but it does not endear them to me.
CH4, I'd be interested to hear your comments.....
Splat
CH4, I'd be interested to hear your comments.....
Splat
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Splat
Go read earlier posts. I'm sorry, but there is a criteria; if you don't meet that, and you don't by your own admission, then don't expect an early reply, if at all. It clearly states on our website what the criteria is. We will, if we can, answer all enquiries, but you must understand that we have a significant demand from people who do meet the criteria. The criteria we apply is to safeguaurd you , not us. I will not allow you to undertake an assessment if you canot meet the criteria for placing you. I'm doing you a favour here
Go read earlier posts. I'm sorry, but there is a criteria; if you don't meet that, and you don't by your own admission, then don't expect an early reply, if at all. It clearly states on our website what the criteria is. We will, if we can, answer all enquiries, but you must understand that we have a significant demand from people who do meet the criteria. The criteria we apply is to safeguaurd you , not us. I will not allow you to undertake an assessment if you canot meet the criteria for placing you. I'm doing you a favour here
CH4,
I beg to differ. I was not looking to get on the scheme as I'm already type rated. All I was asking was a simple question and a short reply would be polite and professional. I too have a business and I get an awful lot of Emails on a daily basis that I cannot do anything with, but make a point of replying to every one of them without exception. Simple courtesy in the modern world comes at a small price. Who knows, we could all benefit from it!
Splat
I beg to differ. I was not looking to get on the scheme as I'm already type rated. All I was asking was a simple question and a short reply would be polite and professional. I too have a business and I get an awful lot of Emails on a daily basis that I cannot do anything with, but make a point of replying to every one of them without exception. Simple courtesy in the modern world comes at a small price. Who knows, we could all benefit from it!
Splat
Last edited by Splat; 15th Nov 2003 at 05:44.
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I've been following this and similar threads with no particular interest, merely that as a Crew Scheduler my DFO occassionally approaches me regarding the marketplace.
I can't believe what I'm reading! In recent weeks I have seen repeated posts from CH4, some of them lengthy, but the bottom line comes across that Global are very busy.
And along comes 'Splat' (is this a Batman & Robin thing?). He or she admits they don't want Global's training programme, they merely want to pass the time of day conversing about something else and then posts a public critism that Global haven't responded.
Splat, where are you coming from? Ever thought of contacting the Citizens Advice Bureau instead?
I can't believe what I'm reading! In recent weeks I have seen repeated posts from CH4, some of them lengthy, but the bottom line comes across that Global are very busy.
And along comes 'Splat' (is this a Batman & Robin thing?). He or she admits they don't want Global's training programme, they merely want to pass the time of day conversing about something else and then posts a public critism that Global haven't responded.
Splat, where are you coming from? Ever thought of contacting the Citizens Advice Bureau instead?
opsmaneurope
The CAB? Yea right, be there first thing in the morning old sport. Perhaps you'll be there waiting for me? Where exactly did I say that I did not want anything from GAS? All I was saying that we may both be missing an opportunity, and the fact that they cannot be diddled to answer my Email is both our losses, not least somewhat unprofesional IMHO. FWIW, I wish GAS luck and hope it works out for them.
Splat
The CAB? Yea right, be there first thing in the morning old sport. Perhaps you'll be there waiting for me? Where exactly did I say that I did not want anything from GAS? All I was saying that we may both be missing an opportunity, and the fact that they cannot be diddled to answer my Email is both our losses, not least somewhat unprofesional IMHO. FWIW, I wish GAS luck and hope it works out for them.
Splat
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OKC described post(s) as Codswallop, I'd descibe yours as 'B0llocks'. If it was something so important, ever thought of picking up the 'Alexander Graham Bell' to Storm or Bond?
Last edited by opsmaneurope; 15th Nov 2003 at 05:41.
opsmaneurope
Dacour - But me thinks you're not what you appear to be, if you get my drift..... I get the feeling that it's you that needs that trip to the CAB......
Splat
Dacour - But me thinks you're not what you appear to be, if you get my drift..... I get the feeling that it's you that needs that trip to the CAB......
Splat
Last edited by Splat; 15th Nov 2003 at 05:52.
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Your Highness, in my first and last sentences I was only trying to bring in some fun and cheer up Your day. I wouldn't be very happy (or even proud) to work for bean counters who twist the arm of the easiest and softest targets on the job market to buy their "job" (because those junior pilots bought the flawed theory that's the only way out of this global mess), no matter how shiny the aircraft are, no matter how large is my paycheck, no matter how great is the scheduling, etc. There are different ways to run an airline and keep it afloat, but I don't like the methods of your employer. I'm sad to hear Your Highness say He doesn't have any problem about it, but I have to respect that difference between us and I expect you to do the same. So keep your insults for yourself.
Now to our chemical entrepreneur, instead of propagating the usual "great pilot shortage"-myth that has been so common (and so lucrative) among FTO and TRTO for decades, if you have jobs to fill (more precisely the operators you're working for), post here the terms and requirements. Unless your offer is ridiculous and/or below EU airline standards, you'll probably hear from a few hundreds of pilots with JAR licenses, type-rated and experienced (B737/B747/B767/A320/A340/DC10/MD80/F100/ATR/etc.), who lost their job when Aer Turas, Crossair, Swissair, Sabena, Air Lib, HeavyLift, Aeris, GoodJet and so many others went down the tube or fired some of their pilots. Not to mention all the others who already have a job but are always looking for greener pastures (sources close to Sterling pretend they have around 130 B737 type-rated pilots on file). Not to mention the BA pilots who find it boring to stop flying at 55 (there were quite a number of them at the NetJets open day, how come they didn't fill your seats then ?). I'd be glad if you and your secondary customers were really offering something fair and acceptable to your collegues, but I doubt it, otherwise you wouldn't be chasing junior pilots with vague garantees and half-truths to convince them. Now you're even trying to sell a type rating to type-rated airline pilots, targeting especially those who don't have a job anymore I guess, since you're denigrating some type ratings in favor of "yours"...
Maybe you should pay a visit to the local flying club nearby. If you're lucky, you might be right on time to meet one of those airline captains with 9000 hours who recently lost his job, had to sell his house and his car (maybe his wife disappeared with the kids too), and invested in the renewal of his Flight Instructor rating to keep flying on week-ends with student pilots. Ask him what he thinks of those junior pilots who pay for type ratings and line training flights to get a "job" after that (sometimes just for the summer season: some are fired once the activity slows down). Ask him if he has no hard feelings about that and the totally artificial demand of pilots it creates. Ask him if he's also ready to buy a type rating to get an airline job again. My advice: be careful and take a first-aid kit with you, just in case.
There's no pilot shortage, you're just complaining that there's not enough experienced pilots willing to buy your products (for good reasons obviously !), which is a whole different thing.
Now to our chemical entrepreneur, instead of propagating the usual "great pilot shortage"-myth that has been so common (and so lucrative) among FTO and TRTO for decades, if you have jobs to fill (more precisely the operators you're working for), post here the terms and requirements. Unless your offer is ridiculous and/or below EU airline standards, you'll probably hear from a few hundreds of pilots with JAR licenses, type-rated and experienced (B737/B747/B767/A320/A340/DC10/MD80/F100/ATR/etc.), who lost their job when Aer Turas, Crossair, Swissair, Sabena, Air Lib, HeavyLift, Aeris, GoodJet and so many others went down the tube or fired some of their pilots. Not to mention all the others who already have a job but are always looking for greener pastures (sources close to Sterling pretend they have around 130 B737 type-rated pilots on file). Not to mention the BA pilots who find it boring to stop flying at 55 (there were quite a number of them at the NetJets open day, how come they didn't fill your seats then ?). I'd be glad if you and your secondary customers were really offering something fair and acceptable to your collegues, but I doubt it, otherwise you wouldn't be chasing junior pilots with vague garantees and half-truths to convince them. Now you're even trying to sell a type rating to type-rated airline pilots, targeting especially those who don't have a job anymore I guess, since you're denigrating some type ratings in favor of "yours"...
Maybe you should pay a visit to the local flying club nearby. If you're lucky, you might be right on time to meet one of those airline captains with 9000 hours who recently lost his job, had to sell his house and his car (maybe his wife disappeared with the kids too), and invested in the renewal of his Flight Instructor rating to keep flying on week-ends with student pilots. Ask him what he thinks of those junior pilots who pay for type ratings and line training flights to get a "job" after that (sometimes just for the summer season: some are fired once the activity slows down). Ask him if he has no hard feelings about that and the totally artificial demand of pilots it creates. Ask him if he's also ready to buy a type rating to get an airline job again. My advice: be careful and take a first-aid kit with you, just in case.
There's no pilot shortage, you're just complaining that there's not enough experienced pilots willing to buy your products (for good reasons obviously !), which is a whole different thing.
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Splat,
So I'm not who I appear to be? Well there's a challenge! My current airline is working to our own JAA approved regulations so I could not expect to prove myself a crew scheduler on those. However, I've been doing this sh1t since the 1970's and thus if you want to test me on a question(s) of the content of CAP371 then you just go right ahead.
Stratocaster,
I can assure you that trying to tempt some individuals to work & live away from their home city or indeed country is more difficult than you make it sound, try it for yourself someday.
Whilst I worked in Belgium they expected everything provided, hotac, transport, travel from/to home, per-diem whilst on days off etc. etc. etc. so I do not believe there to be a particular relevance of pilots out of work in perhaps Belgium whilst vacancies exist in perhaps UK nor indeed UK pilots available aged 55 whilst vacancies exist in perhaps Belgium.
I currently work with geriatric jets so I'm not here trying to recruit nor indeed sell any product, but there is a shortage of pilots, certainly those prepared to take a job away from home out there, that I can tell you.
So I'm not who I appear to be? Well there's a challenge! My current airline is working to our own JAA approved regulations so I could not expect to prove myself a crew scheduler on those. However, I've been doing this sh1t since the 1970's and thus if you want to test me on a question(s) of the content of CAP371 then you just go right ahead.
Stratocaster,
I can assure you that trying to tempt some individuals to work & live away from their home city or indeed country is more difficult than you make it sound, try it for yourself someday.
Whilst I worked in Belgium they expected everything provided, hotac, transport, travel from/to home, per-diem whilst on days off etc. etc. etc. so I do not believe there to be a particular relevance of pilots out of work in perhaps Belgium whilst vacancies exist in perhaps UK nor indeed UK pilots available aged 55 whilst vacancies exist in perhaps Belgium.
I currently work with geriatric jets so I'm not here trying to recruit nor indeed sell any product, but there is a shortage of pilots, certainly those prepared to take a job away from home out there, that I can tell you.
Last edited by opsmaneurope; 18th Nov 2003 at 02:11.
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Well, I already did work/live away from my home city (8 hours flight time from home), and I still do, although a little bit closer now.
Some people can't do it, it is indeed pretty hard for yourself and your family (especially if you have kids) and if it's the first time you have to change your lifestyle so dramatically, but you won't convince me that the vast majority of the pilots will not relocate if they really have to. Europe is getting smaller and smaller, and unemployed pilots are ready to do anything to get a flying job... and to keep their house and family together ! Yes, a few won't, but most will. You can't justify a so-called shortage with that. That's what my experience tells me (would the Belgians be an exception, and if yes, why ?).
Post a job advert here, we'll see...
Some people can't do it, it is indeed pretty hard for yourself and your family (especially if you have kids) and if it's the first time you have to change your lifestyle so dramatically, but you won't convince me that the vast majority of the pilots will not relocate if they really have to. Europe is getting smaller and smaller, and unemployed pilots are ready to do anything to get a flying job... and to keep their house and family together ! Yes, a few won't, but most will. You can't justify a so-called shortage with that. That's what my experience tells me (would the Belgians be an exception, and if yes, why ?).
Post a job advert here, we'll see...