Atlas STN
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merc,
I guess I didn't communicate all of my thoughts completely.
Make sure I don't miss to much (not as condensention, just to make sure I'm not erring on this quick deal).
The company decides one day, hey let's merge both certificates and create one seniority list. Sounds good enough. Then they get real smart and fly an Atlas bird into Japan. Ooops....pissed off the Japanese. We'll just smooth it over, then do it again. Wow!!! They impounded the airplane!! Appearantly the Japanese decided that Polar route authorities must be flown by Polar-operated airplanes, and the brain trust decided to keep seperate certificates (which kinda changes the deal substantially from one combined operation, to TWO airlines, one of which would be easy to spin off).
So, my intent was this: Instead of a intra-union arm wrestling match, why don't OUR MEC's agree to disagree, but instead focus the beating on Purchase? Why don't both of our MEC's went to Purchase to open section 6 together, and chase down two industry leading contracts for the crews? Let's get our scopes, pay and work rules where they need to be, then worry about our internal integration issue. The list is made and done. Whether it is enacted is an academic discussion for another day.
Both contracts should have scope clauses that I previously described. It's not make Polar fat at the expense of Atlas. That was never my intent. We don't compete against each other in the business world, so it's only the company's benefit that we compete in our internal world. That can be done if our MEC's unify and deal with the company first.
The whole "I benefit over you" is complete crap. If I gave the impression that PO should benefit by poaching from 5Y, I was misunderstood. We punch the clock everyday, and we want our employer to be successful and lucrative and keep sending the checks. All the pilots should benefit.
Until the MEC's show leadership on the issue that all the AAWH pilots are looking for the same things (Job security, pay and work rules), and focus their energy on attaining those in contracts and LOAs, I don't see the in-fighting ending. And the more we fight with each other, the more Cato wins.
I guess I didn't communicate all of my thoughts completely.
Make sure I don't miss to much (not as condensention, just to make sure I'm not erring on this quick deal).
The company decides one day, hey let's merge both certificates and create one seniority list. Sounds good enough. Then they get real smart and fly an Atlas bird into Japan. Ooops....pissed off the Japanese. We'll just smooth it over, then do it again. Wow!!! They impounded the airplane!! Appearantly the Japanese decided that Polar route authorities must be flown by Polar-operated airplanes, and the brain trust decided to keep seperate certificates (which kinda changes the deal substantially from one combined operation, to TWO airlines, one of which would be easy to spin off).
So, my intent was this: Instead of a intra-union arm wrestling match, why don't OUR MEC's agree to disagree, but instead focus the beating on Purchase? Why don't both of our MEC's went to Purchase to open section 6 together, and chase down two industry leading contracts for the crews? Let's get our scopes, pay and work rules where they need to be, then worry about our internal integration issue. The list is made and done. Whether it is enacted is an academic discussion for another day.
Both contracts should have scope clauses that I previously described. It's not make Polar fat at the expense of Atlas. That was never my intent. We don't compete against each other in the business world, so it's only the company's benefit that we compete in our internal world. That can be done if our MEC's unify and deal with the company first.
The whole "I benefit over you" is complete crap. If I gave the impression that PO should benefit by poaching from 5Y, I was misunderstood. We punch the clock everyday, and we want our employer to be successful and lucrative and keep sending the checks. All the pilots should benefit.
Until the MEC's show leadership on the issue that all the AAWH pilots are looking for the same things (Job security, pay and work rules), and focus their energy on attaining those in contracts and LOAs, I don't see the in-fighting ending. And the more we fight with each other, the more Cato wins.
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On the front of getting personal. I remember many Polaroids doing the same about one of the Atlas MEC. He sold his share eventually since the union demanded most of his time. If the Polar membership wants to spend the money (100 pay hours a month) for their MEC to sit in the Bahamas on his houseboat while running his bikini shop and only attending to union matters when absolutely necessary, that is your memberships problem. He isn't needed that much for the union stuff anyway, Robin Hair of the negotiation committee makes all of the decisions for Bobb.
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Personal Attacks
merc and whale: When you resort to personal attacks....you lost the argument. And you two seem to do that a lot.
...And isn't J. C. raking in a lot of dough as an underwear model?
Every time you don't want to answer a question or if you think the argument is not going according to Robins plan you start this kind of thing. Stick to to facts! Answer the questions!
The Atlas MEC has tried many times to do exactly what EjetCA has said. They tried to work with the Polar MEC and the Polar Merger committee on many issues. All to no avail. The intransigence of the Polar leadership makes it near impossible to get anything done. EjetCA you talk about our scope clause - but we can't even get to our second contract section six until Bobb and Robin stop their delaying tactics.
The bottom line is exactly what Bourne said in his latest message. If Bobb and Robin thought they had a case, they would actually WANT this grievance to be expedited. The fact that they want to "put it on the bottom of the pile" of grievances (many of which are ones that the Polar MEC refused to move forward, not the company) speaks volumes. Robin knows he cannot prevent a merger. He knows that if AAWWH wants to merge the two companies, then that is their prerogative. He is only trying to delay the process. I think he truly wants to burn the company down. I think he wants to put the DHL contract in jeopardy in hopes that once it is totally gone to others then Atlas will sell Polar separately.
By the way, NONE of the Atlas MEC members have a second job or business but that is typical of the information you guys get fed from the Bobb-n-Robbin show.
And I still want to know layinlow and Miami freight - do you still work for Polar?
If Polar has such a good case then why the delay? If the scope protections are so great then why worry about putting the grievance on the bottom of the pile?
Argue your case on its merits. I bet none of you look good as a underwear model either so lets just stop that kind of talk and discuss the important points - if you even still work for Polar.
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 4th Oct 2007 at 21:43.
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I've been a little busy so sorry for my delay again.
I too have a company on the side. Thats OK since I don't get paid by my union. Even if I did get flight pay loss for working for them, I wouldn't pull stunts like using a union cell phone as the main contact number for a charter service in Homer AK like one of the past Polar MEC's. If your membership feels fine with paying for it, that is Polar's membership concern. What's a few $5K a month phone bills.
I do remember a number of "personal attacks" being conducted by the Polar equation here on Atlas and their MEC. Just find it funny that it's a problem now.
WhaleFR8 pretty much summed up the rest of it, so why repeat it.
I'll just hang out and post when I have more info to put up. Shouldn't take too long. One side always has something to say contradictory to published verifiable facts that needs to be posted for those intentionally not informed by their leadership.
I too have a company on the side. Thats OK since I don't get paid by my union. Even if I did get flight pay loss for working for them, I wouldn't pull stunts like using a union cell phone as the main contact number for a charter service in Homer AK like one of the past Polar MEC's. If your membership feels fine with paying for it, that is Polar's membership concern. What's a few $5K a month phone bills.
I do remember a number of "personal attacks" being conducted by the Polar equation here on Atlas and their MEC. Just find it funny that it's a problem now.
WhaleFR8 pretty much summed up the rest of it, so why repeat it.
I'll just hang out and post when I have more info to put up. Shouldn't take too long. One side always has something to say contradictory to published verifiable facts that needs to be posted for those intentionally not informed by their leadership.
Last edited by mercpc9; 5th Oct 2007 at 05:44.
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"but we can't even get to our second contract section six until Bobb and Robin stop their delaying tactics. "
Ive never seen so much crying in my life. Bunch of babies. You actually think its the MEC of a different certificated airline thats keeping another airline from its second contract??? Getting your second contract is your own responsibility. Tell your MEC to get to work and stop blaming others for your predicament.
Polar has one of the best MEC's in the business. Do alot of hard work for their members. Glad we have them.
"If Polar has such a good case then why the delay?"
Hmmmmmmm,, Whats the hurry??
Ive never seen so much crying in my life. Bunch of babies. You actually think its the MEC of a different certificated airline thats keeping another airline from its second contract??? Getting your second contract is your own responsibility. Tell your MEC to get to work and stop blaming others for your predicament.
Polar has one of the best MEC's in the business. Do alot of hard work for their members. Glad we have them.
"If Polar has such a good case then why the delay?"
Hmmmmmmm,, Whats the hurry??
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I guess you forgot that ALPA National approved a PID for the merger, the Company says there is going to be a merger, and Polar wanted an expedited merger not to long back. I guess someone didn't get something they wanted and now are trying everything to delay or get out of it.
Seperate Sect. 6 negotiations are just going to be repeats of the past ones. Many here seem to have a short and selective memory of those events.
Seperate Sect. 6 negotiations are just going to be repeats of the past ones. Many here seem to have a short and selective memory of those events.
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What Bill Flynn thinks, in case Bobb doesn't feel like passing it around. Yep, I agree he is management.
We got a copy on the Atlas side.
(scanned two pages and Bobb address removed)
We got a copy on the Atlas side.
(scanned two pages and Bobb address removed)
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Peanuts
Sorry but the Polaroids are NOT the 101st Airborne. Not now, not ever. And General McAuliffe had more leadership ability in his left big toenail than anyone involved in this tiny scuffle.
..... But you go ahead and send that very reply to AAWWH management.
..... But you go ahead and send that very reply to AAWWH management.
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No...it really doesn't. And a poorly written letter rushed out the door late on Friday (if its' Friday, it must be Cato) won't change anything. We'll all find out soon enough, with or without the threats...
Polar crewmembers don't want to AND don't have to. CYA.
p.s.-I've seen his "hammer", it's not too big.
Polar crewmembers don't want to AND don't have to. CYA.
p.s.-I've seen his "hammer", it's not too big.
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It is very odd that he neglects to mention that when the merger was initially proposed that there was to be ONE operating certificate.
Since they "restructured" Polar and signed an agreement with DHL that there would continue to be two separate and independent operating certificates.
Again, one of the cornestones of the deal changed, yet it is not recognized.
I must admit there are several notes that divide the pilot groups, and even further allies the Atlas Crews with Management, almost an (US vs. Them) vs. THEM.
My interpretations:
1) Polar got gutted because they were unprofitable in their present form. So we went in, made some tough decisons, found an anchor customer in DHL and have made it a viable entity, to exploit the 5th freedom rights, Japanese Landing rights and align a brand with DHL
2) Atlas is a MUCH larger company, so why should Atlas crewmembers care about PO pilots?
3) The growth carrot is dangled with an implication that if AAWH fleet doesn't grow, it's the pilots fault. Do you honestly think the share holders care if AAWH grows if there is one or two pilot groups?
4) DHL potential? BS...Is Flynn lying to the shareholders or the pilot group? (I know who I'd bet on....)
Don't let managment make your decisions for you....
Fly Safe
Since they "restructured" Polar and signed an agreement with DHL that there would continue to be two separate and independent operating certificates.
Again, one of the cornestones of the deal changed, yet it is not recognized.
Until and unless this is done, the better relationship between management and Polar Crewmembers that we all seek will be hard to establish
My interpretations:
1) Polar got gutted because they were unprofitable in their present form. So we went in, made some tough decisons, found an anchor customer in DHL and have made it a viable entity, to exploit the 5th freedom rights, Japanese Landing rights and align a brand with DHL
2) Atlas is a MUCH larger company, so why should Atlas crewmembers care about PO pilots?
3) The growth carrot is dangled with an implication that if AAWH fleet doesn't grow, it's the pilots fault. Do you honestly think the share holders care if AAWH grows if there is one or two pilot groups?
4) DHL potential? BS...Is Flynn lying to the shareholders or the pilot group? (I know who I'd bet on....)
Don't let managment make your decisions for you....
Fly Safe
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Originally Posted by cptvac
Polar crewmembers don't want to AND don't have to. CYA.
I believe it is the writing of Bill Flynn, without influence of Mr. Cato. Mr. Cato's style is distinctive and is easy to pick out over the number of years having to deal with him and the CEO's he controlled in these issues when they wrote letters in the past.
p.s.-I've seen his "hammer", it's not too big.
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Guess I could say the same about the Atlas membership...on the road they have nothing but positives to say about the Polar MEC and negatives about their own...go figure.
You are correct. Cato's "style" is distinctive. And predictable.
Ahhhhhh yeah...the hammer...if you work here long enough, he is bound to show it to you sooner or later. Can't help himself...compulsive. Damn my eyes...
You are correct. Cato's "style" is distinctive. And predictable.
Ahhhhhh yeah...the hammer...if you work here long enough, he is bound to show it to you sooner or later. Can't help himself...compulsive. Damn my eyes...
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Ahhhhhh yeah...the hammer...if you work here long enough, he is bound to show it to you sooner or later. Can't help himself...compulsive. Damn my eyes...
Sorry but I don't believe your story about the Atlas guys - they are too well informed to believe that the Polar MEC is anything but a roadblock to a new contract and a pay raise.
How would you know anyways - are you listening to staphylococcus again?
What the Atlas pilots have recognized in the past is that the Polar PILOTS are solid - what they are just finding out is that Robbobbin have really just kept all the Polaroids in the dark; especially the FOs.
All councils and MECs have their internal problems. At least the Atlas MEC talks to their pilots - and has the integrity to tell them the real truth. One only has to compare the letter posted above by MERC with the latest BobbVars. Someone ain't telling the truth.
Do you really suppose that the CEO of the company is the one lying about the merger?
So the real truth is that the Polar Pilots are not solid, just un-informed.
You have a unique position being on the negotiating committee. Put yourself in a junior FO's position. Is the Polar MEC acting with integrity or do they have their own agenda?
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 7th Oct 2007 at 08:09.