Atlas STN
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Furloughed
hAVE YOU ever looked at you'r own back yard! I am sure the folks at Atlas really appreaciate you trashing their hard work and commitmend to provide sustainable employement to people around the world. Not just completely of the wall disgruntled Pilots!!!!!!!!! 
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They do pay for it. Unfortunately, one of the things they have been doing is taxing it as a fringe benefit under certain conditions while at your base. A lawsuit has been filed on it. So you get hit with whatever your income tax rate is on what they spend during your STN reserve. Still cheaper than out of your pocket. I don't see a reason for them doing it often though. There are no Atlas flights going through STN and getting commercials out to someplace useful is not the quickest thing to do. That and they are spending their money now vs yours.
mercpc9
mercpc9
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I noted that some seem to think there is not going to be a merger in previous posts.
This was distributed to the Atlas union membership by the Atlas MEC after they got it from Mr. Clark. Don't know if it came out on the Polar union side. It appears that the 49% owners (that being DHL) of the PACW holding company are expecting a merger between Atlas and Polar. So that may be a plus or minus for new hires to consider if hiring on. R Clark is the guy DHL sent to act as a COO of the holding company PACW.
merc
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This was distributed to the Atlas union membership by the Atlas MEC after they got it from Mr. Clark. Don't know if it came out on the Polar union side. It appears that the 49% owners (that being DHL) of the PACW holding company are expecting a merger between Atlas and Polar. So that may be a plus or minus for new hires to consider if hiring on. R Clark is the guy DHL sent to act as a COO of the holding company PACW.
merc
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Merc,
While I'm not a lawyer, it seems that Mr. Clark is merely spouting the company line. By all reasons, it would be expected as he is a member of the management team.
However, in the 2006 annual report, they company reported that the merger may not happen. They also state that it's up to the pilots if the merger should occur. Obviously this is in complete contradiction to what they are spouting to the pilots. Please take the time to review that, and don't take my word for it. (Page 21 of the .pdf if you want to read it)
Also, Mr Clark's worries about a Polar -400 going down are quite unfounded. How about finding expansion aircraft for Polar? Surely the marketing gurus in Purchase can find work for it in the world. According to their analysis, the -400 market is picking up, while the -200 market is declining. They want to replace the -200s with the -8s for more business. They also indicate that the -8 will be even more profitable thatn the -400. Imagine how prosperous both Atlas and Polar could be if both airlines grow!! More work for everybody...that's great business if you're a pilot.
The seasonal demands, again, could be solved via a well written scope clause should the lists remain separate. Obviously, there would be far more legalese, but it should encompass the following:
1) Define the peak season, and allow ACMI lift
2) Designate Atlas as the sole provider for ACMI lift for PO; or first right of refusal
3) Designate PO as the first right of refusal to provide additonal lift for 5Y with non-DHL designated aircraft.
4) Inability for AAWH to move aircraft between AAWH entities to circumvent CBA's.
5) Should an aircraft be moved, crew will not be furloughed.
This would allow both companies to benefit.
Hopefully, everyone agrees that should a merger not occur, the MEC's should work closely together to increase job security for ALL crewmembers. As we have all witnessed in the PAX world, a CBA isn't even useful as toilet paper if there are no jobs to go with it.
It's all academic. At the end of the day, protect my job and show me the money.
While I'm not a lawyer, it seems that Mr. Clark is merely spouting the company line. By all reasons, it would be expected as he is a member of the management team.
However, in the 2006 annual report, they company reported that the merger may not happen. They also state that it's up to the pilots if the merger should occur. Obviously this is in complete contradiction to what they are spouting to the pilots. Please take the time to review that, and don't take my word for it. (Page 21 of the .pdf if you want to read it)
Also, Mr Clark's worries about a Polar -400 going down are quite unfounded. How about finding expansion aircraft for Polar? Surely the marketing gurus in Purchase can find work for it in the world. According to their analysis, the -400 market is picking up, while the -200 market is declining. They want to replace the -200s with the -8s for more business. They also indicate that the -8 will be even more profitable thatn the -400. Imagine how prosperous both Atlas and Polar could be if both airlines grow!! More work for everybody...that's great business if you're a pilot.
The seasonal demands, again, could be solved via a well written scope clause should the lists remain separate. Obviously, there would be far more legalese, but it should encompass the following:
1) Define the peak season, and allow ACMI lift
2) Designate Atlas as the sole provider for ACMI lift for PO; or first right of refusal
3) Designate PO as the first right of refusal to provide additonal lift for 5Y with non-DHL designated aircraft.
4) Inability for AAWH to move aircraft between AAWH entities to circumvent CBA's.
5) Should an aircraft be moved, crew will not be furloughed.
This would allow both companies to benefit.
Hopefully, everyone agrees that should a merger not occur, the MEC's should work closely together to increase job security for ALL crewmembers. As we have all witnessed in the PAX world, a CBA isn't even useful as toilet paper if there are no jobs to go with it.
It's all academic. At the end of the day, protect my job and show me the money.
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You make some valid points. Unfortunately, they are selective on who benefits when it's a good thing. Very reminiscent of what Polar's legal council says to Polar's benefit. I have heard of Mr. Katz, of the Polar legal council, saying the exact same thing. Of course, he is paid to come up with that.
Polar chooses to believe the company when they are the surviving carrier and not to when they are not, as is the case now. The company under the RLA gets to drive most of that unfortunately and not labor. That short and selective memory coming into play again by the Polar MEC. I hope the Polar membership doesn't fall into that.
Which also reinforces what you said:
Say and do anything at the end of the day. A tried and true practice on one side of the equation. Actually on two sides of this three way argument battle. I'll leave that to popular discussion.
This leads to the recent VARS by Bobb Henderson (Polar MEC Chairman of the Captains represented only Airline) saying the Atlas MEC are liars in his VARS 09/23/2007 Polar message. I have retained it for later record. Bobb (two b's) stated that the Atlas MEC had promulgated lies in favor of the company over the recent findings of the court rather than for the Polar union recently. In a 09/28/07 company response by Jim Cato (I hate quoting him, but he has a valid point on the timing and what the court said) the company confirmed that Bobb Henderson and the company both new of the outcome several days before Bobb Henderson's message calling the Atlas MEC liars on Sept 23. The verbal announcement to the parties of the decision with the written judgment to follow. Well, Bobb H. will say and do anything obviously. A lot of character there, which reflects his actions past and future. If your happy with it on the Polar side, then that says a lot also or confirms past actions.
Anyway, here is what I have on it in copy. Written up on at least the 20th and sent on the 26th. I can't attest to the verbal side dating of notification, which was prior to the 20th, but that is always followed by the paperwork in these cases.
Order Compelling Arbitration
Polar chooses to believe the company when they are the surviving carrier and not to when they are not, as is the case now. The company under the RLA gets to drive most of that unfortunately and not labor. That short and selective memory coming into play again by the Polar MEC. I hope the Polar membership doesn't fall into that.
Which also reinforces what you said:
It's all academic. At the end of the day, protect my job and show me the money.
This leads to the recent VARS by Bobb Henderson (Polar MEC Chairman of the Captains represented only Airline) saying the Atlas MEC are liars in his VARS 09/23/2007 Polar message. I have retained it for later record. Bobb (two b's) stated that the Atlas MEC had promulgated lies in favor of the company over the recent findings of the court rather than for the Polar union recently. In a 09/28/07 company response by Jim Cato (I hate quoting him, but he has a valid point on the timing and what the court said) the company confirmed that Bobb Henderson and the company both new of the outcome several days before Bobb Henderson's message calling the Atlas MEC liars on Sept 23. The verbal announcement to the parties of the decision with the written judgment to follow. Well, Bobb H. will say and do anything obviously. A lot of character there, which reflects his actions past and future. If your happy with it on the Polar side, then that says a lot also or confirms past actions.
Anyway, here is what I have on it in copy. Written up on at least the 20th and sent on the 26th. I can't attest to the verbal side dating of notification, which was prior to the 20th, but that is always followed by the paperwork in these cases.
Order Compelling Arbitration
Last edited by mercpc9; 29th Sep 2007 at 07:40.
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Mr. Moderator
Mercpc9 is desperately trying to drag this forum into a Polar v Atlas battle again. The only reason I am here is to offer truth where he lies. Please shut this down, or leave it to the finish with an appropriate thread title and we can do this thing again.
Merc
You should enter your Section 6 negotiations ASAP. The Atlas crewmembers are being cheated and used by their leadership, and know it. The Polar "boogeyman" thing is not working anymore. Please don't act like Cato turns your stomach...he forwards court documents with his take on things, your leadership forwards them to you, you post and parrot their flawed thinking. You spout the Company venom as if this will change anything...silly. You work for liars who are working for liars...it is a house of cards. You have a great day, sweetpea.
Mercpc9 is desperately trying to drag this forum into a Polar v Atlas battle again. The only reason I am here is to offer truth where he lies. Please shut this down, or leave it to the finish with an appropriate thread title and we can do this thing again.
Merc
You should enter your Section 6 negotiations ASAP. The Atlas crewmembers are being cheated and used by their leadership, and know it. The Polar "boogeyman" thing is not working anymore. Please don't act like Cato turns your stomach...he forwards court documents with his take on things, your leadership forwards them to you, you post and parrot their flawed thinking. You spout the Company venom as if this will change anything...silly. You work for liars who are working for liars...it is a house of cards. You have a great day, sweetpea.
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Where are all the FOs at Polar?
Now that's pretty typical. You don't like to hear the truth so you ask the mods to shut down the thread. I too am curious where all of your F/Os have gone. I heard (rumor of course, but this IS after all a rumor board) that Robin (the real person in charge of the MEC) has said that none of the F/Os can be trusted. Thus all of the F/Os have been removed from committees - Even your Vice Chair and FO status rep has not been seen at a meeting in almost 8 months. It is a shame that Robin didn't get hired by United and that he got so upset when Atlas bought Polar. We could have been great. Typical of pilots everywhere. Greatness is ruined by one person - or a few people.
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You can have an Atlas v. Polar (ok P v. A if some prefer) fight if you like. I don't mind at all. Only thing that makes it difficult for the participants is respecting the rules. No blatant rudeness, no personal attacks (in other words, attack the argument by all means but do not attack the person).
I'll just say from a personal point of view that the last thing you guys need is a fight. But, up to you.
As for closing this thread: not merited (for now).
I'll just say from a personal point of view that the last thing you guys need is a fight. But, up to you.
As for closing this thread: not merited (for now).
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cptvac is right. Atlas MEC should start Section 6 negotiations right away. We(Polar) are.
Oh,, and one other thing. Tell Bourne to "step up to the plate" and at least act like he's in charge and not blame the Polar guys for your next crappy contract(which is what your next contract will be). Got old really quick here at Polar.
Thanks guys,,, and good luck with your negotiations.
Oh,, and one other thing. Tell Bourne to "step up to the plate" and at least act like he's in charge and not blame the Polar guys for your next crappy contract(which is what your next contract will be). Got old really quick here at Polar.
Thanks guys,,, and good luck with your negotiations.
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Polar SEction Six??
We(Polar) are.
And I still want to know where all of your FO's are? Is your council now a Captain only union?
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 30th Sep 2007 at 07:01.
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Wow,
I put up some third party facts from the court and step away for a day. Look what happens. Would put up the recordings of Bobb's messages (Polar), Dave Bourne's (Atlas) and Cato's also so you can compare, but that is a little too time consuming. If they have not been wiped yet, you can get Polars at 800-253-5671 for the last three, Atlas at 800-253-5642 for the last three, and I can't put Cato's message up because it's proprietary. You have to be an employee to hear it via their system. But his verifies what ALPA National and what Bourne says.
I can't help it that Bobb Henderson ( more likely Robin Hair through Bobb ) are caught lying again to his membership and treats them like mushrooms (kept in the dark and fed cr@!!!). They have done the same with the ALPA executive board thinking the facts wouldn't follow.
This is just a recent example. I can see why so many of the Polar group end up communicating to me for info. They seem to think they can't get the strait stuff from their own. It sounds like they don't get anything from their own council. BTW - the court order didn't come from Cato. You forgot that ALPA national is named on it also. Not just Polar.
As to Section 6 on the Atlas side. We have been prepared for that. Prepared for both merger or section 6 negotiations. We prefer merger negotiations since that will prevent the inevitable moving of aircraft back and forth between Atlas and Polar resulting in furloughs that were demonstrated on the Atlas and Polars sides during Sect. 6 negotiations of the past.
Have we forgotten the separate Sect. 6 negotiations of the past with Atlas and Polar? Do we really need a replay of those days?
Is it that on the Polar side, only the captains count and not the F/O's that would see the brunt of those replayed games matter? Is it Bobb Henderson trying to keep his 100 guaranteed pay hours a month as a MEC officer for sitting down on his house boat in the Bahamas running his bikini business the reason for wanting separate section 6 instead of a merger?
Bobb was gangbusters for merger until after the seniority arbitration award. Which Polar mostly won. What has he told you on that?
I put up some third party facts from the court and step away for a day. Look what happens. Would put up the recordings of Bobb's messages (Polar), Dave Bourne's (Atlas) and Cato's also so you can compare, but that is a little too time consuming. If they have not been wiped yet, you can get Polars at 800-253-5671 for the last three, Atlas at 800-253-5642 for the last three, and I can't put Cato's message up because it's proprietary. You have to be an employee to hear it via their system. But his verifies what ALPA National and what Bourne says.
I can't help it that Bobb Henderson ( more likely Robin Hair through Bobb ) are caught lying again to his membership and treats them like mushrooms (kept in the dark and fed cr@!!!). They have done the same with the ALPA executive board thinking the facts wouldn't follow.
This is just a recent example. I can see why so many of the Polar group end up communicating to me for info. They seem to think they can't get the strait stuff from their own. It sounds like they don't get anything from their own council. BTW - the court order didn't come from Cato. You forgot that ALPA national is named on it also. Not just Polar.
As to Section 6 on the Atlas side. We have been prepared for that. Prepared for both merger or section 6 negotiations. We prefer merger negotiations since that will prevent the inevitable moving of aircraft back and forth between Atlas and Polar resulting in furloughs that were demonstrated on the Atlas and Polars sides during Sect. 6 negotiations of the past.
Have we forgotten the separate Sect. 6 negotiations of the past with Atlas and Polar? Do we really need a replay of those days?
Is it that on the Polar side, only the captains count and not the F/O's that would see the brunt of those replayed games matter? Is it Bobb Henderson trying to keep his 100 guaranteed pay hours a month as a MEC officer for sitting down on his house boat in the Bahamas running his bikini business the reason for wanting separate section 6 instead of a merger?
Bobb was gangbusters for merger until after the seniority arbitration award. Which Polar mostly won. What has he told you on that?
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Look at your post merc.
The entire post is about Polar's business. MEC communications, "captains only count"(whatever that means), even so far as to comment on the chairmans residence and pay. What goes on over here on the Polar side is really none of your business. In fact,, you need to concentrate on the goings on in your own MEC.
Again,,, good luck in your section 6 neg.
The entire post is about Polar's business. MEC communications, "captains only count"(whatever that means), even so far as to comment on the chairmans residence and pay. What goes on over here on the Polar side is really none of your business. In fact,, you need to concentrate on the goings on in your own MEC.
Again,,, good luck in your section 6 neg.
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Section 6
101,
And how are your section six negotiations going? Doesn't there need to be two parties to negotiate?
Of course this all matters to us. You still have two of our airplanes. We are just trying to plan for when they will be coming back - along with all the PA -400s.
And you probably will not believe this but since your MEC thinks that all Polar FOs are disloyal, and has locked them out of the loop, they have been calling their Atlas friends as well as our MEC for information and advice.
It is a darned shame - we could have been so good together. And really ONE angry man has caused so much hate and discontent. Of course he now has his followers who are "sucking" others into their Vacuum.
I was at the employee exchange the day that Jeff Erickson announced that "of course we were all going to be Atlas pilots." The look on Robin and Mark's faces (who were also there), told me all I needed to know about what we were all in for.
too bad
And how are your section six negotiations going? Doesn't there need to be two parties to negotiate?
Of course this all matters to us. You still have two of our airplanes. We are just trying to plan for when they will be coming back - along with all the PA -400s.
And you probably will not believe this but since your MEC thinks that all Polar FOs are disloyal, and has locked them out of the loop, they have been calling their Atlas friends as well as our MEC for information and advice.
It is a darned shame - we could have been so good together. And really ONE angry man has caused so much hate and discontent. Of course he now has his followers who are "sucking" others into their Vacuum.
I was at the employee exchange the day that Jeff Erickson announced that "of course we were all going to be Atlas pilots." The look on Robin and Mark's faces (who were also there), told me all I needed to know about what we were all in for.
too bad
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Whaledriver101
Actually,
Your MEC's actions are affecting about 600 union paying members on the Atlas side of the equation. Polar's constant "IN" , then "MAYBE" and then "OUT" of the merger is not only screwing with your membership but also the Atlas membership. In the constant limbo of Merger "Maybe" or Section 6 "Maybe".
It was obvious Bobb (and Robin) were happy when you thought you were going to be the "surviving carrier". We couldn't merge quick enough. The seniority arbitration seemed to null that quickly. Despite Polar winning the majority of it, you didn't get the bump and flush to get rid of as many Atlas crewmembers as you could. Then the Bobb and Robin show tried getting that via the merger protocols with "follow the flying". The arbitrator pretty much summed that up as "tuff luck boy's, my rulings are binding" and ALPA National even recognized it. All of a sudden, Polar doesn't want to merge any more.
Anyhow, here are about 1500 pages of that arbitration we got on the Atlas side. I'm looking for the arbitors final award copy, but I can't find it at the moment. Think it's on my other computer. 2MB download takes some time:
Atlas Polar senioirty arbitration transcripts in TXT format Right Click and Save AS
As to "It's none of your business!" You are absolutely right, up until all of those Polar MEC actions (and Robin H) of continual lying, deceit, personal interest self protection, knuckle dragging, intentionally misleading the Polar membership and anyone else that will listen affects my fellow crewmembers and I. Outside of that, I wouldn't give a flip.
Judging from the number of those contacting me for more info, I've been thinking of starting a website to allow downloads of published info on the merger to inform the Polar membership with the released documents since it is obvious that they are not given anything of the whole truth by their MEC. Drop me a PM to count as a vote for it.
merc
Actually,
Your MEC's actions are affecting about 600 union paying members on the Atlas side of the equation. Polar's constant "IN" , then "MAYBE" and then "OUT" of the merger is not only screwing with your membership but also the Atlas membership. In the constant limbo of Merger "Maybe" or Section 6 "Maybe".
It was obvious Bobb (and Robin) were happy when you thought you were going to be the "surviving carrier". We couldn't merge quick enough. The seniority arbitration seemed to null that quickly. Despite Polar winning the majority of it, you didn't get the bump and flush to get rid of as many Atlas crewmembers as you could. Then the Bobb and Robin show tried getting that via the merger protocols with "follow the flying". The arbitrator pretty much summed that up as "tuff luck boy's, my rulings are binding" and ALPA National even recognized it. All of a sudden, Polar doesn't want to merge any more.
Anyhow, here are about 1500 pages of that arbitration we got on the Atlas side. I'm looking for the arbitors final award copy, but I can't find it at the moment. Think it's on my other computer. 2MB download takes some time:
Atlas Polar senioirty arbitration transcripts in TXT format Right Click and Save AS
As to "It's none of your business!" You are absolutely right, up until all of those Polar MEC actions (and Robin H) of continual lying, deceit, personal interest self protection, knuckle dragging, intentionally misleading the Polar membership and anyone else that will listen affects my fellow crewmembers and I. Outside of that, I wouldn't give a flip.
Judging from the number of those contacting me for more info, I've been thinking of starting a website to allow downloads of published info on the merger to inform the Polar membership with the released documents since it is obvious that they are not given anything of the whole truth by their MEC. Drop me a PM to count as a vote for it.
merc
Last edited by mercpc9; 1st Oct 2007 at 05:16.