Atlas STN

[cptvac]

Whale

It's clear you have an agenda here. You have been given your mission to interfere and attempt to undermine another MEC. Who knows, maybe it will work because obviously the bulk of Polar pilots run to you and Merc for their information.

You continue to demonize Bobb and Robin hoping to destroy Polar's unity and consolidate the Atlas MEC. Events have moved far beyond this petty nonsense organized by a small-minded, besieged non-Senior Labor VP and a pathetic band of political punks who blame and spin to retain their positions. You absolutely deserve your leadership, the Polar pilots continue to support and empower theirs.

[mercpc9]

Originally Posted by Furloughed

Man, I'm glad I moved on from that place.

JC is going to keep you under the current Atlas CBA until 2015.

You heard it here first!

I believe the only ones keeping Both Polar and Atlas under their current CBA's is the Polar MEC. Oops, I mean Bobb Henderson MEC Chairman and Shadow MEC council puppet master Robin Hair. Playing the song of "There is no merger" when AAWW, Atlas ALPA crewmembers, ALPA national, and Polars new minority shareholders say otherwise.

Thanks Bobb and Robin, on behalf of all of us crewmembers looking to get on with the show and get fixes, new pay scales, longevity scales, into a combined merged contract. Bobb and Robin know better. I forgot, great job on that last section 6. What was that, an 18 month contract with essentially the same bag of money that was on the table before the strike, just distributed differently?

Originally Posted by cptvac

You continue to demonize Bobb and Robin hoping to destroy Polar's unity and consolidate the Atlas MEC. Events have moved far beyond this petty nonsense organized by a small-minded, besieged non-Senior Labor VP and a pathetic band of political punks who blame and spin to retain their positions. You absolutely deserve your leadership, the Polar pilots continue to support and empower theirs.

I wouldn't call it trying to destroy Polar's unity. Bobb and Robin's unity means taking from Atlas crewmembers and using Atlas crewmembers as scapegoats for everything wrong at their hands. I remember a number of times of attempting to help in past joint efforts. In return, Atlas crewmembers have been labeled, blamed and used only for Polar's benefit. There has been no reciprocation of efforts by the Polar MEC past and present for the Atlas membership. Only knives thrown in return or attempts to undermine us to their benefit.

If not, please refresh me of a time that Polar has done anything that did not benefit themselves in some way rather than as an act of pure support for Atlas.

[cptvac]

You grossly overstate your generosity.

[mercpc9]

Originally Posted by cptvac

You grossly overstate your generosity.

And you have not stated any of Polar's generosity.

We are used to that type of attitude among your leadership and along side the "What have you done for me today" attitude.

I'll adjourn until I have more info for your crews since it is kept secret when it collides with the Polar MEC wishes.

[WhaleFR8]

Vac,
It is a shame that you have descended into name calling. Why can't you just discuss the issues? It seems that any time you or Bobb, (you know you are posting whatever he tells you) feel threatened, or one of us approaches the truth, you lower yourselves to name calling and misdirection.

So why can't one of you have the integrity to answer the questions raised here? Why can't you be honest with the Atlas crewmembers that you are currently focused on screwing over? Why can't you be honest with your own first officers?

For the record, I have not talked with any of the MEC in the last 3 weeks, so your assertion that there is some sort of MEC agenda to discredit Bobbrobin (more than they already have themselves), is silly.

Also for the record, the Atlas pilots would just as soon you all go away. however, they recognize that the company has said both groups are going to merge. And contrary to what Bobbrobin are saying, the Atlas pilots actually believe it. So, in the average Atlas pilots opinion, your recalcitrant MEC and Negotiating committee are having a HUGE impact on the their lives. Yet you just expect them to roll over and shut up? Come on get real.

Atlas pilots fully support your MEC's right to file a grievance. But putting it behind all the other ones (most of which your MEC has held up, not the company) is plain wrong. And why would you do that anyway (another question you have not answered) - why would you do that if you believe you are right? It is obvious to anyone who has read this thread that you are only trying to delay things. I wonder if the arbitrator will see it the same way?

Your case is not strong enough to win, so you delay until the whole DHL deal goes down the crapper??? In the mean time, Atlas pilots suffer. Yet you want them to shut up and go away???

Grow some integrity my friend, and answer the questions. Put your case forward on its merits if there are any.

[whaledriver101]

Whale

The Polar guys have answered your questions more than enough times on here. We would just be repeating ourselves.

The Polar pilots were set to merge when the company said they were going with the single certificate. That went down the toilet when DHL bought half of Polar. Now we are back to "two different companies with two different certificates". DHL bought half of one of the companies(Polar). The deal has nothing to do with the other company(Atlas). So if the DHL deal "goes down the crapper" it really shouldnt effect the Atlas guys anyway. Since we are "two different companies with two different certificates" one of the companies pilot group(Polar) is preparing for its Section 6 negotiations. It is highly suggested that the other different pilot group(Atlas) do the same. One pilot group has absolutly nothing to do with the other.

If this is confusing to you have your 4 yr. old read it to you. Even he can explain it to you.

Again the level of honesty and information given to the FO's and Capt's from its MEC is really none of your or anybody else business. Your MEC leadership(or lack thereof) has enough on its plate without worrying about information given to pilot group members of another company.

As far as those letters from Flynn and Cato and whoever else,, the Polar pilots figure if they really had such a strong case they wouldnt have put those letters out anyway. No biggy.

Again,,, tell your MEC to take resonsibility. And get to work.

[L-38]

"answer the questions."

Fr8 - Your post read as an uncontrolled rant.

So that all questions with regards to Polar can be worked with (and for reference), request you delete excess verbiage. Please re - list those questions desired in a simple 1), 2), 3), format. Thanks!

Nice (err. . .somewhat nice) answer, 101.

[cptvac]

Whale

I am not under cross-examination. If you think arguing the merits or discussing an outcome on a rumor board (or in any public forum) is a good idea, you are simply not an adult. This "discussion", as were our previous exchanges, is your attempt to undermine Polar leadership...no more, no less.

As long as we are discussing wishes...I wish Atlas pilots luck in their careers. I wish/hope they vote themselves some new leadership, as well. If they don't, they are in for alot of time away from home and another less than adequate CBA and that is honestly a shame.

For alot of reasons, there is no merger (yes, the arbitrator may rule otherwise). It would have been nice to put this thing together, but the Company (in consort with the Atlas MEC) just made the price too damn high for Polar pilots. They both continue the same methods. Tragic.

[mercpc9]

I guess we now have a full court press from the Bobb and Robin MEC now. Curious how many phone calls Bobb and Robin had to make to their group to converge all of a sudden. Maybe it was more the number of phone calls Bobb and Robin have been receiving lately requesting the truth.

Lets see - There is no merger! -

Bobb and Robin new back 30th May 2006 there was going to be a merger with both Polar and Atlas certificates remaining intact. About a year and half ago. They got a copy of the DOT filing showing it. It would be just like how Continental and Air Micronesia does it now. Two certificates one pilot/airline group. Even ALPA President J. Prater has confirmed that to Bobb.

Bobb and Robin continued during this time (30MAY2006 to now) to pursue grievances that would take flying away from Atlas that depended on protections in the Polar CBA that required a pending merger to grieve. Only recently, when Bobb/Robin decided "there is no merger" , did they drop them. Dropped after ALPA legal pointed it out to them and explained it to them slowly that if they are saying publicly "there is no merger" that they can't press on with grievances that require a pending merger as their basis of argument. Though they wanted to continue them.

They - at the same time - continued and completed a merged seniority integration of Polar and Atlas crews knowing there would be two certificates. Sounds like they new there was a merger.

Don't forget the "Return to Work Agreement" which required the merger.


Lets see - The Polar CBA required a complete operational merger!

Nope, it doesn't. I'm going from memory some here, but I think it says in 1.D of the Polar CBA "a combination of all or substantially all the operations and assets of the pre merged airlines". I don't have your CBA in front of me at the moment for the exact quote, but I'm sure you have one.

There is no Polar contractual or ALPA merger policy requirement for one certificate to go away. Refer back Continental/Air Micronesia as an example. Bobb and Robin are just making that up.

It seems that all of this "there is no merger" is revolving around that "follow the flying" that Bobb and Robin tried to get in the Seniority Arbitration and later attempted to get in the merger protocols.

If it wasn't that Polar would be used against Atlas during separate Sect. 6 negotiations again, I would wish you the best of luck. That's not going to happen though and is unrealistic to believe otherwise. I know better and the Polar group probably nows better also.

This sticking your heads in the sand is not accomplishing anything and is only delaying real merger negotiations for the betterment of both groups bottom lines.

If getting the truth out is "undermining the Polar MEC" when they have lied over and over again at the expense of Polar and Atlas crewmembers, then I guess I'm guilty.


merc

[cptvac]

Merc

There is an arbitration scheduled. There will be a decision on these issues soon, though you seem to know the outcome...

What is it you are demanding? Who is your target audience?

[CR2]

Moderating announcement

There have been +-15 posts from beginning Sept deleted by error. (That's my excuse for finger trouble with the FMS (Freightdogs Moderating System)). I'll try and fix it.

Sorry.

[mercpc9]

Not really demanding anything other than trying to get the Polar MEC to start telling the truth to their membership and the aviation community. Not just selected pieces of it to fit their needs at the time. Done so to manipulate their membership. That makes them no better than management.

The audience -- those wanting the full truth. Polar - Atlas - and the aviation community that may cross our collective paths.

The documents I have posted are distributed to the Atlas membership, letting the chips fall where they may. In dialog with many of the Polar membership, they have not heard or seen most of them despite it affecting them. So the Polar MEC can pretty much say anything to them and they believe it. Proven time and again in the past.

[WhaleFR8]

Hotels

So now there is an arbitration to decide on the hotel so there can be an arbitration to decide on the timing of an arbitration?

Seems like more bovine scatology delaying tactics to me. It is painfully obvious that there is no case and Bobbrobin are doing everything in their power to delay.

I am not demonizing Bobbrobin any more than they have made a laughingstock out of themselves. But I have talked with a couple of Polaroids on the line recently who had never seen the stuff that Merc posts on here. Apparently Bobbrobin have disseminated neither Flynn's letter nor Randy Clark's letter to the Polar crewmembers. One has to wonder why? Why would he not bring all of his crewmembers into the communications loop?

As I said before, Atlas pilots could give a Yaks butt about the Bobbrobin show or the Polaroids; except it is delaying their section six - whether merged or not. It is long past time to step up, put pride aside, and move this forward. Atlas pilots fully support the Polaroids right to arbitration. What they don't support is the obvious delaying tactics, misinformation, and outright lies.

Two years ago Bobbrobin (and others??) made a statement to JC that they would "Never be Atlas Pilots." Is that what this is all about?

JC can't make you go to work. Maybe you should all just quit?? That guarantees you will never have to be Atlas Pilots.

얼굴를 제외하고 - means to save face in Korean.

자전하십시요 - might also come in handy for some.

[Best Angle]

Foreign Signs

Whale....

$$$$$$$$$ Means - "Stop Posting" in Korean, Chinese or Japanese or wherever Polar has Route Authority. The stuff you are saying is out of line.

[WhaleFR8]

The stuff you are saying is out of line.

Why?
Is it wrong to post the truth?
Someone needs to illuminate the financial injustice being done to 750+ pilots to appease the ego of two or three.
What have either Merc or myself said that is untrue?
Even though this is a "Rumor Network" Web Board, every thing we have said is backed up by documents and eyewitness accounts.
You are certainly free to rebut anything here.
Who's route authority is that?
You are certainly not obligated to read my drivel. There is even a way to ignore me on this forum.

정지 쓰기 - means stop writing.

[L-38]

Will someone / anyone please answer this question. . . .What should become of Polar's exclusive Scope Clause (Polar's right to fly / follow Polar's freight)?

This is the sticking point of the merger.

[WhaleFR8]

Scope Clause

There is no "right to fly/follow Polar's freight." (see scope clause below)

And there is no real "sticking point." The company has said they are merging the lists and there is binding arbitration telling Atlas and Polar pilots how to do it. The only "sticking point" is in the imagination of the Polar negotiating committee chairman and his MEC mouthpiece. You can see from reading the scope clause below that there is no language that could be considered a sticking point.

What you are talking about is the wishes of the Polar MEC to have follow the flying rights should the Polar business unit be spun off from AAWWH after the merger of the lists and the establishment of a new CBA. They wanted this for several years (four I think, but I may be wrong on that). This would not come from the current Polar scope clause, as that would go away with the new CBA. They wanted this language inserted in any NEW CBA - THAT is what you are calling, or Bobbrobin is telling you, is the sticking point; not the current Polar CBA Scope clause.

This was all part of the pre-merger protocols negotiations for the new CBA. The Polar MEC wanted to ensure that the Polar pilots would have the ability to go (move to any new company) with the sale, if the Polar certificates or business unit were sold in the four years after the merger. The Polar merger committee proposed this same thing during the merger negotiations in front of arbitrator Harris and he denied them that proposal.

The Atlas MEC, knowing this was purely a delaying tactic, tried to move things forward by initially counter-offering 12 months of follow the flying. However, when the Polar MEC would not budge, and on the advice of council, the Atlas MEC decided that they could not vacate an arbitrators decision from binding arbitration (Harris Arbitration). So the 12 month offer was rescinded.

Just for Reference, below is the Polar Scope Clause.

B. SCOPE.
1. Except to the extent expressly provided otherwise in this Section or elsewhere in this Agreement, all present and future flying performed by the Company, or by any other airline which is owned, controlled or operated by the Company or by Polar Air Cargo Holdings, Inc., including, but not limited to, revenue flying, ferry flights, charters, and wet leases, shall be performed by Crewmembers whose names appear on the Polar Air Cargo Crewmembers System Seniority List in accordance with the terms and conditions set forth in this Agreement.

2. The Company shall not directly or indirectly sell, lease or otherwise transfer any aircraft owned, leased or operated by the Company to any airline which is owned, controlled or operated by the Company or by Polar Air Cargo Holdings, Inc. if such sale, lease or transfer will directly cause a reduction in force, unless the flying of such aircraft by such airline is performed by Crewmembers on the Polar Air Cargo Crewmembers System Seniority List in accordance with this Agreement.

[cptvac]

Whale

Again...there is an arbitration next week. There will be a decision. Whether we like it or not, we must wait for a "disinterested" 3rd party to sort it out. The issue simply is not going to be decided here.

You continue to misrepresent the opinions of Polar crewmembers. You continue to demonize and blame the Polar MEC for the self-serving choices your own MEC has made. The Atlas MEC has climbed into bed with Mr. Cato, and Atlas crewmembers are paying the price. Further more, they know it--so it must be OK. Continue to vent if you must.

Polar crewmembers have made their wishes overwhelmingly clear and demanded defense of their CBA--they simply do not agree with your version of reality and what ought to be. Nor do I.

The delays, gamesmanship, and culture of blame created by Mr. Cato and Mr. Bourne have backfired and, unfortunately, the Atlas crewmembers may very well pay a heavy price. I truly hope that they don't, and wish them luck. I also hope that their representatives will stop interfering with another labor group who is unified in exercising its right not to merge.

Who knows? Maybe Mr. Horowitz reads this board and will be persuaded by your passion...

[mercpc9]

Originally Posted by cptvac

You continue to demonize and blame the Polar MEC for the self-serving choices your own MEC has made. The Atlas MEC has climbed into bed with Mr. Cato, and Atlas crewmembers are paying the price.

Please, do tell and have some proof of the "self serving choices" of the Atlas MEC. I know of a number of selfless acts of support for Polar by the Atlas MEC and membership that went rewarded with only a campaign of hate and scapegoating by the Polar MEC.

Off the top of my head, I can't remember a time Polar reciprocated any support unless it was of a direct benefit to themselves. Could you please refresh my memory of any?

As far as climbing into bed with management, I guess it's that "all or nothing attitude" the Polar MEC exhibits continuously. I see where that has gotten you. We deal with the problems, the Polar MEC doesn't. What is the phrase Bobb and Robin say? I remember, "WE DON'T TALK TO MANAGEMENT!" quoted at several venues. Yep, that's worked pretty good for you so far. Makes you wonder why you spend money for a union. I forgot, it's to keep Bobb on his houseboat in the Bahamas and Robin in Phoenix soaking up the sun at your memberships expense.

[WhaleFR8]

Originally posted by captvac
Again...there is an arbitration next week. There will be a decision. Whether we like it or not, we must wait for a "disinterested" 3rd party to sort it out. The issue simply is not going to be decided here.

Yep an arbitration to decide whether or not Bobbrobin must put this grievance above the numerous grievances that they have not put through to step two. An arbitration to decide whether or not they can have an arbitration. This is a patently obvious delaying tactic as was the petulant hotel issue recently put forth by Bobb - delay delay delay. Of course it affects Atlas.

The Atlas MEC has climbed into bed with Mr. Cato, and Atlas crewmembers are paying the price.

So you claim the Atlas MEC has climbed into bed with Cato, and Bobbrobin are intent on making them pay the price? So this really isn't about your contract? It is about making the Atlas MEC pay for some perceived slight?

The delays, gamesmanship, and culture of blame created by Mr. Cato and Mr. Bourne have backfired and, unfortunately, the Atlas crewmembers may very well pay a heavy price.

Delays by Bourne and Cato? What delays? The only delay I currently see is from Bobbrobin.
Culture of Blame? Hmmm.... how do you reconcile the Polar strike then; and all the "blame" that was placed on the Atlas pilots during that whole Robin-created-debacle.

I truly hope that they don't, and wish them luck. I also hope that their representatives will stop interfering with another labor group who is unified in exercising its right not to merge.

Where is your "right not to merge?" That is clearly a large mistake. You do not have this right. It is the company's right to merge its business units. Bobbrobin cannot dictate this kind of decision to management. Your only right is to quit if you don't like it. It is your MEC who is interfering in the process. If you are so sure that you have a "right not to merge," then let the process go on. Quit interfering.

As I have said many times before. Atlas pilots don't really care about having the Polar Pilots on their list. They just want this mess solved, one way or the other so they can get on with their section 6 and their lives. In fact if the truth be known (and I have said this before too) the Atlas pilots would just as soon you go away - all of you. Leave the planes and route authorities that belonged to Atlas before you came on board and don't let the door hit you in the backside on the way out.

L38 (obviously a Polaroid) asked a question on this board. He or she is obviously confused about the right to follow the flying so I answered the question honestly, with your scope clause to back it up. I am sorry if this upsets you; or that you think it demonizes Bobbrobin.