Atlas STN
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: US
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
section six
You see 101, in case it isn't plain to you yet, there can be NO section six unless the other party (the company) comes to the negotiations. One certainly cannot have negotiations by themselves now can they.
Since the company has said that we ARE going to merge one way or the other, they will not come to the table with Atlas negotiators no matter how prepared we are, or how much we might wish them too.
Since we cannot get the company to come to the table (remember THEY seem to think the merger is still on) we cannot negotiate a new contract which is now over two years past its amendable date. So basically the Robin and Bobb show has cost us at least a pay raise and possibly some good quality of life fixes. And it gets worse with every passing day.
So in addition to the two Atlas aircraft that are being currently destroyed by the Polar pilots (just like 496MC was); and in addition to the profit sharing money we lost when Atlas upstreamed it to the holding company and used it to buy Polar; your MEC is costing our pilots hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost pay and benefits.
Do you wonder why the Atlas pilots are so pissed off?
This all sucks worse than a vacuum cleaner.
Since the company has said that we ARE going to merge one way or the other, they will not come to the table with Atlas negotiators no matter how prepared we are, or how much we might wish them too.
Since we cannot get the company to come to the table (remember THEY seem to think the merger is still on) we cannot negotiate a new contract which is now over two years past its amendable date. So basically the Robin and Bobb show has cost us at least a pay raise and possibly some good quality of life fixes. And it gets worse with every passing day.
So in addition to the two Atlas aircraft that are being currently destroyed by the Polar pilots (just like 496MC was); and in addition to the profit sharing money we lost when Atlas upstreamed it to the holding company and used it to buy Polar; your MEC is costing our pilots hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost pay and benefits.
Do you wonder why the Atlas pilots are so pissed off?
This all sucks worse than a vacuum cleaner.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Navarre
Posts: 311
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why don't you guys just give it up? If the union membership is so upset with the Polar MEC you wouldn't know it by the postings on our web site. I am beginning to believe the vitriol coming from the Atlas side is in response to the unfavorable rulings they have endured and the fact that Astar and Polar MEC's may (note I wrote "may") merge into one group. Just sit back shut up and let this whole thing work itself out without pontificating on this web site. I am for closing this thread down. It serves no purpose and has gotten away from the intent of the first post.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: US
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When 496 left Atlas for Polar it was in pretty good shape and had been pretty well taken care of. When it came back from Polar (the first time) I was one of the first ones to fly it. There were scuff marks all over the walls, the carpet was torn up and the light fixtures and switches in the bunks were broken or missing. The cockpit was a pig-sty, the chiller did not work, the oven was filthy and did not work; the hot cup even worse. The carpet was torn up and filthy. The blue room was filthy and the galley in general was so dirty and full of old food and catering it took us almost an entire flight to clean it up. The cockpit controls were chipped and the center pedestal was so dirty it looked like it had not been cleaned since it left Atlas.
The Polar pilots have the same tools that the Atlas pilots have to keep the airplane clean. None, other than not taking the airplane until it is properly ground serviced, or writing up inop items such as the galley equipment. But in all my time at Atlas I have never flown an airplane that was in worse shape; especially not a -400 that was only about 8 years old.
Perhaps fixing the blame on the Polar pilots is wrong - but if the shoe fits?? We will certainly know when we all start flying the same airplanes; or when 416 comes back to Atlas.
Layinlow are you still at Polar???
The Polar pilots have the same tools that the Atlas pilots have to keep the airplane clean. None, other than not taking the airplane until it is properly ground serviced, or writing up inop items such as the galley equipment. But in all my time at Atlas I have never flown an airplane that was in worse shape; especially not a -400 that was only about 8 years old.
Perhaps fixing the blame on the Polar pilots is wrong - but if the shoe fits?? We will certainly know when we all start flying the same airplanes; or when 416 comes back to Atlas.
Layinlow are you still at Polar???
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: atlanta
Age: 58
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nah layinlow,, keep the thread open. Its got everything you want from bikini businesses to messy airplanes. And,, all the crying in between.
You are correct though. We are probably closer to merging with Astar than we ever were with Atlas crewmembers. And when that happens it will finally be over. All over,,,,,,,,,,,,,except for the crying.
You are correct though. We are probably closer to merging with Astar than we ever were with Atlas crewmembers. And when that happens it will finally be over. All over,,,,,,,,,,,,,except for the crying.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: US
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We are probably closer to merging with Astar than we ever were with Atlas crewmembers. And when that happens it will finally be over.
rotfbsomnlmao
I noticed you didn't answer any of my questions. How do you negotiate with someone that will not come to the table because they insist the merger is still on (and after all it is their company - not Bobbbs)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: KLAX
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PPrune at the Soaps!
Is this the story's plot -
Polar labor is rebelliously attempting to dodge daddy (er step-daddy) AAWW's shotgun wedding attempt with Atlas labor, because realistically or unrealistically, Polar has a lusting eye set on DHL/ Astar instead?
Or is it that loftier Atlas labor would very much like to jump into bed with voluptuous DHL, however the Polar Labor punk is in the way?
Is this the story's plot -
Polar labor is rebelliously attempting to dodge daddy (er step-daddy) AAWW's shotgun wedding attempt with Atlas labor, because realistically or unrealistically, Polar has a lusting eye set on DHL/ Astar instead?
Or is it that loftier Atlas labor would very much like to jump into bed with voluptuous DHL, however the Polar Labor punk is in the way?
Last edited by L-38; 2nd Oct 2007 at 07:05.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: US
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As the Fan Turns
Neither really. AAWWH is a publicly held holding company which in turn owns both Polar and Atlas. AAWWH has said they are merging the two subsidiary companies. That is THEIR choice not Bobb and Robin's.
Bobb initially said "Great" we want to merge. Now, after the seniority list is negotiated, he suddenly doesn't want to merge. AAWWH could do the DHL contract with any number of companies out there. They could sub-lease, they could fire everyone and start a new company; they could even buy a non-union company and give the whole deal to them. They own the leases on the planes, and they own the certificates and landing rights. Those certs and rights and planes DO NOT belong to the Polaroids no matter how much they might wish it. So if Bobb and Robin keep screwing around, NEITHER group will have the DHL contract. And maybe AAWWH won't either.
Atlas pilots don't really give a Bos grunniens hindquarters whether they merge or not. They just want to negotiate their contract and want their planes back, one way or the other. They are just more realistic about the mindset of the company.
A bonus would be never having to deal with Bobb and Robin again.
Astar really has nothing to do with it. This is all part of the Deutsch Post/DHL plan to rule the cargo world. The two groups, if they ever get together, are going to be but a small part of the big plan alongside Astar, Abex, Lufthansa and DHL and probably others. If Polar and Atlas don't get together, however, then chances are that Deutsch Post/DHL will go to someone that is easier to work with. I wonder if that has already happened.
Bobb initially said "Great" we want to merge. Now, after the seniority list is negotiated, he suddenly doesn't want to merge. AAWWH could do the DHL contract with any number of companies out there. They could sub-lease, they could fire everyone and start a new company; they could even buy a non-union company and give the whole deal to them. They own the leases on the planes, and they own the certificates and landing rights. Those certs and rights and planes DO NOT belong to the Polaroids no matter how much they might wish it. So if Bobb and Robin keep screwing around, NEITHER group will have the DHL contract. And maybe AAWWH won't either.
Atlas pilots don't really give a Bos grunniens hindquarters whether they merge or not. They just want to negotiate their contract and want their planes back, one way or the other. They are just more realistic about the mindset of the company.
A bonus would be never having to deal with Bobb and Robin again.
Astar really has nothing to do with it. This is all part of the Deutsch Post/DHL plan to rule the cargo world. The two groups, if they ever get together, are going to be but a small part of the big plan alongside Astar, Abex, Lufthansa and DHL and probably others. If Polar and Atlas don't get together, however, then chances are that Deutsch Post/DHL will go to someone that is easier to work with. I wonder if that has already happened.
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 2nd Oct 2007 at 08:02.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Miami
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You keep leaving out that Polar has scope and successorship under their current CBA. Why should they leave that off the table? AAWWH has been the one who has changed the face of this merger. Bobb is just reacting to the change in the concept since the seniority list is mergered. No Scope protection...No Merger. Why should we leave our livelihood up to the good will of Cato and Co?
I really don't understand the personal attacks. Is it illegal to have an outside business when you are an ALPA rep? Doesn't' Atlas' MEC chairman have outside business interests? Also why would you think that FO's at Polar have no representation? Ask one of the so called "Cato 42" who consist of a lot of screwed over by ALPA ex TWA guys if they have gotten good representation by the Polar MEC. Also Polar has one of the most junior friendly contracts in the industry. Sacred days off and no junior assignment for one.
I really don't understand the personal attacks. Is it illegal to have an outside business when you are an ALPA rep? Doesn't' Atlas' MEC chairman have outside business interests? Also why would you think that FO's at Polar have no representation? Ask one of the so called "Cato 42" who consist of a lot of screwed over by ALPA ex TWA guys if they have gotten good representation by the Polar MEC. Also Polar has one of the most junior friendly contracts in the industry. Sacred days off and no junior assignment for one.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: KLAX
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As The Fan Turns (Refined)
Whale suggests that resistant Polar labor will willingly throw a wrench into the merger machinery, because of an unfavorable seniority inheritance.
Others suggest that Polar is bulking because of it's reluctance to lose it's tenuous scope lifeline.
Is it possible / realistic that DHL, when tired of wrestling with Polar labor, will walk away from it's hefty investment?
Unfortunately, it appears that Polar's (labor) merger resistance, has unintentionally stalled Atlas's contract negotiations. Collateral damage?
Whale suggests that resistant Polar labor will willingly throw a wrench into the merger machinery, because of an unfavorable seniority inheritance.
Others suggest that Polar is bulking because of it's reluctance to lose it's tenuous scope lifeline.
Is it possible / realistic that DHL, when tired of wrestling with Polar labor, will walk away from it's hefty investment?
Unfortunately, it appears that Polar's (labor) merger resistance, has unintentionally stalled Atlas's contract negotiations. Collateral damage?
Last edited by L-38; 2nd Oct 2007 at 17:21.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: US
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why mention the Polar scope and rights of succession? It would only gum up their argument.
So are you still at Polar layinlow?
Is it possible / realistic that DHL, when tired of wrestling with Polar labor, will walk away from it's hefty investment?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: KLAX
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DHL has indicated that it wants a merger. This fact alone will make Bobb's agenda difficult. No doubt that Bobb is gutsy to take on such a battle (not a bad character trait for a protective labor leader, no?).
Not sure how fragile the DHL relationship is, as we are not privy to DHL's escape decision's / particulars. That is probably the bigger question.
Not sure how fragile the DHL relationship is, as we are not privy to DHL's escape decision's / particulars. That is probably the bigger question.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Miami
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How so? There is no argument. Bob will be the first to tell you he is trying to prevent the merger, That is plain to all of us. However, the Polar scope clause does not give him the right to do so - though he and Robin are certainly trying.
What makes you an expert on this topic? How do you know what a judge will rule? The fat lady is far from singing in this case. Why don't you just pull up a chair and keep your mouth shut.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: US
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ummmm - well because I have read the Polar contract and I have heard Bobb's VARS messages and heard what he said to the ALPA executive council. I wasn't trying to portray myself as an expert. Only answering a question (your question I think).
Are you still at Polar?
Maybe you need to go fly that 172 around the bay a little bit and cool off.
Are you still at Polar?
Maybe you need to go fly that 172 around the bay a little bit and cool off.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Earth
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lest we forget, companies decide if they are going to merge. Unions only negotiate the terms of employment. So DHL deciding to merge with Polar is decided by the company not the union groups leaders. It makes a good message to use for their troops though. Makes them think they are doing something.
Polars previous urgency to merge was reflected in past messages by Bobb from about a year ago. Saying that it was the Atlas union side delaying. Now that Polar didn't win everything in the Seniority List Arbitration they have decided to to take their ball and go home by delaying the process. Now Bobb and Robin are using a pre merger negotiation demand to delay the process that was pretty much resolved by the arbiter on the Seniority List Arbitration.
On the front of getting personal. I remember many Polaroids doing the same about one of the Atlas MEC. He sold his share eventually since the union demanded most of his time. If the Polar membership wants to spend the money (100 pay hours a month) for their MEC to sit in the Bahamas on his houseboat while running his bikini shop and only attending to union matters when absolutely necessary, that is your memberships problem. He isn't needed that much for the union stuff anyway, Robin Hair of the negotiation committee makes all of the decisions for Bobb.
Bobb more or less just does VARS messages which are full of misstatements or out right lies which are caught very quickly by facts. But it plays well to his membership which are given few of the actual facts. Can't have the membership thinking for themselves you know. BTW he doesn't fly despite it being rumored that he does. Not current.
Oct 2 Atlas Message in RealAudio
Web page of same
Court Order Compelling Arbitration in PDF
Polars previous urgency to merge was reflected in past messages by Bobb from about a year ago. Saying that it was the Atlas union side delaying. Now that Polar didn't win everything in the Seniority List Arbitration they have decided to to take their ball and go home by delaying the process. Now Bobb and Robin are using a pre merger negotiation demand to delay the process that was pretty much resolved by the arbiter on the Seniority List Arbitration.
On the front of getting personal. I remember many Polaroids doing the same about one of the Atlas MEC. He sold his share eventually since the union demanded most of his time. If the Polar membership wants to spend the money (100 pay hours a month) for their MEC to sit in the Bahamas on his houseboat while running his bikini shop and only attending to union matters when absolutely necessary, that is your memberships problem. He isn't needed that much for the union stuff anyway, Robin Hair of the negotiation committee makes all of the decisions for Bobb.
Bobb more or less just does VARS messages which are full of misstatements or out right lies which are caught very quickly by facts. But it plays well to his membership which are given few of the actual facts. Can't have the membership thinking for themselves you know. BTW he doesn't fly despite it being rumored that he does. Not current.
Oct 2 Atlas Message in RealAudio
Web page of same
Court Order Compelling Arbitration in PDF
Last edited by mercpc9; 3rd Oct 2007 at 15:43.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: KLAX
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Per Oct 2 Atlas message - "On the merger front, the Association has informed us that that management won its lawsuit against the Polar MEC to compel them to arbitration regarding whether they are required to complete the merger."
Merc, You seem skilled at producing legitimate documents. The understanding was that management's recent lawsuit was specifically about prioritizing it's order of filed grievances ahead of those of Polar's . . . . . Management did not win this - Polar did.
A discrepancy here. Please help clarify.
Obviously a respected member of Atlas labor, you seem generally credible. If so, reporting from Polar's bedroom as such, is from a place where I suspect you don't belong.
Merc, You seem skilled at producing legitimate documents. The understanding was that management's recent lawsuit was specifically about prioritizing it's order of filed grievances ahead of those of Polar's . . . . . Management did not win this - Polar did.
A discrepancy here. Please help clarify.
Obviously a respected member of Atlas labor, you seem generally credible. If so, reporting from Polar's bedroom as such, is from a place where I suspect you don't belong.
Last edited by L-38; 3rd Oct 2007 at 18:36.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: New York
Posts: 293
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK with that.There you guys go again. Take a moment and actually read the order.
It directs the parties to present their case to the arbitrator within 30 days on whether it should be expedited or not. Bottom line, it’s not tied up in court and it’s up to the arbitrator to decide if it has merit to be expedited. I see it only at best, as a minor victory for the foot dragging Polar MEC. I think AAWH is happy to see it move along and not be tangled in litigation. The Polar MEC has indicated what they think the outcome will be by not making themselves available for a simple conference call with the arbitrator.
This is an unprecedented move by the Polar MEC and the arbitrators are aware of the Polar tactics. Holden mentioned to the neutrals that it was known that Polar was had a "take it or leave it attitude" and it is wearing thin.
Remember, early 2008 is no big deal. It’s obvious that the merger is not going to happen in the next six month's, so DHL appears OK with that.
It directs the parties to present their case to the arbitrator within 30 days on whether it should be expedited or not. Bottom line, it’s not tied up in court and it’s up to the arbitrator to decide if it has merit to be expedited. I see it only at best, as a minor victory for the foot dragging Polar MEC. I think AAWH is happy to see it move along and not be tangled in litigation. The Polar MEC has indicated what they think the outcome will be by not making themselves available for a simple conference call with the arbitrator.
This is an unprecedented move by the Polar MEC and the arbitrators are aware of the Polar tactics. Holden mentioned to the neutrals that it was known that Polar was had a "take it or leave it attitude" and it is wearing thin.
Remember, early 2008 is no big deal. It’s obvious that the merger is not going to happen in the next six month's, so DHL appears OK with that.