Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

COS18

Old 13th Sep 2018, 10:32
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 50
Posts: 212
Reality is everyone is out for themselves. You know it, I know it, they know it. Even if you started to get unity starting with trainers then captains then FOs as soon as the first real shot was fired the unity would fracture in an instant. So every bad thing that has happened in your career. Every single degradation in condition has been your own fault. Accept it and move on, because this will be old news in a matter of months when the housing deal comes out. I know it, you know it and they know it that there is only one direction the housing is going. Just like this there will be no one person on this forum, in the union or anywhere else that will Challenge it. Trainers will keep on training. SO's will keep on coming. D Scale will be the new A scale in time. Accept it or move on.
RAT Management is offline  
Old 13th Sep 2018, 11:45
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: All over
Posts: 625
I find it completely insane that in a time of major worldwide pilot shortages, the CX ĎGroupí is cutting pilot contract terms and conditions .From a former CX manager, sadly his words ring true.... ďmarket forcesĒ. And has been said previously, if they keep coming (& they will), there will be nothing to stop this rot. Training bans, recruitment bans are important & the time for them is definitely now. No doubt about it. But donít expect any changes while supply continues to exceed demand. Resignation rates at an all time high? Sure, yes, perhaps. But how many ĎGroupí aircraft have been parked? FFS, CX are doing KA KUL, KHH & TPE Flying of late.
b.
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 12:15
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 31
Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
Your current rostering practices are being superceeded by CMP. CX/KA have already stated the current leave schemes are changing. In CX this has been promised for the last 5 years, so I wouldn't panic over that. Your pay deal expires next March. I would suggest you start tabling meetings now. The CX pay negotiations have been going on for over 2 years without a result and you guys in KA can expect the same treatment next time round. No agreement suits the company down to the ground and you now know their bottom line is COS18. Good luck.
KA have not stated the current leave scheme is changing. They advised the DPA that it was CX who wanted rid of it. We are all quite happy with it. It's worked fine for years. Not a good idea to get rid of it if they want industrial peace and roster stability. There have to be reasons to stay. The leave scheme definitely affects pilot retention in KA.
MPPCAG is offline  
Old 13th Sep 2018, 12:43
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 16
Finally. Good to see we are tightening up the Typhoon policy. Thatís the absolute minimum we need to be doing.
Clear_sky is offline  
Old 13th Sep 2018, 13:11
  #65 (permalink)  
STW
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 0
Nobody is forced to accept COS 18, and no one was forced to accept HKPA.

The real problem is that people join believing there will be improvements later in the career.

It appears some on HKPA haven't understood that.
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 14:05
  #66 (permalink)  
CCA
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Up there
Posts: 171
This is a scare tactic to accept a low ball deal in negotiations don't fall for it!
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 14:14
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by MPPCAG View Post
KA have not stated the current leave scheme is changing. They advised the DPA that it was CX who wanted rid of it. We are all quite happy with it. It's worked fine for years. Not a good idea to get rid of it if they want industrial peace and roster stability. There have to be reasons to stay. The leave scheme definitely affects pilot retention in KA.
KA FOP management ( such as it is ) doesn't call the shots anymore. It was the CX DFO who announced the new COS18 for the group and it is the CX DFO who will try to merge the seniority lits and it will be the CX DFO who changes the leave system for the Cathay GROUP airlines. Don't you get it. The KA and CX days are over. It's GROUP airlines now.
unitedabx is offline  
Old 13th Sep 2018, 14:18
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: UK London
Posts: 3
Is DPA planning to do anything about this? Is DPA doing anything to protect our future members?
The KA cadets training in FTA and L3, resigned their previous job, only half way in training to find their salary in the future is 30% less, with potentially none of the leave scheme promised...
CathayDragonPacific is offline  
Old 13th Sep 2018, 15:27
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Here
Posts: 339
If it's a group then it's a group responsibility, why on earth are you delegating to the KA boys?! Maybe you shouid be getting your respective "unions" to merge if that's the case.
Threethirty is offline  
Old 13th Sep 2018, 15:27
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: hong kong
Posts: 105
I suspect that there will be significant flooding from the typhoon , if you can’t get to work , you can’t get to work , it’s not from lack of trying
cannot is offline  
Old 13th Sep 2018, 16:30
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Asia
Age: 40
Posts: 25
Pathetic

No 13th month.

No pay/HKPA deal.

4 years of ineffective industrial action.

Now COS18... The current crop of cadets in Adelaide have already accepted the new deal.

Trainers are still training.

The same sycophants will help out during the typhoon.

We are a sorry and pathetic bunch who deserve everything we get.

Or will we grow some balls for once?

Yeah, right.

Iím done. I canít wait to get out of here.
OneBarWonder is offline  
Old 13th Sep 2018, 16:46
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 31
Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
KA FOP management ( such as it is ) doesn't call the shots anymore. It was the CX DFO who announced the new COS18 for the group and it is the CX DFO who will try to merge the seniority lits and it will be the CX DFO who changes the leave system for the Cathay GROUP airlines. Don't you get it. The KA and CX days are over. It's GROUP airlines now.
Now this is funny. I remember when CX bought KA a lot of CX pilots were screaming 'Don't you get it?! We are separate airlines!'.....
MPPCAG is offline  
Old 13th Sep 2018, 17:05
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: FL310
Posts: 49
What Tyson said well done!

So many losers on here always wanting someone else AKA KA to make a stand.

STW says it how it is. Kudos to him most of you don’t want to hear it

Anyone concidering joining please please do your homework. I now have absolutely no passion for flying aeroplanes my moral is in the toilet and my work ethic sucks arse. It’s not my character and I’m not proud of it, that’s what you have to
look forward to.

It’s no secret a combined seniority list has been on the cards for years probably should have happened years ago IMHO

Social media is probably the most powerful tool in the shed in today’s world

just sayin

Last edited by BubbaJ; 13th Sep 2018 at 17:32.
BubbaJ is offline  
Old 13th Sep 2018, 19:21
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: England
Posts: 585
Red face

Originally Posted by BubbaJ View Post
What Tyson said well done!

So many losers on here always wanting someone else AKA KA to make a stand.

STW says it how it is. Kudos to him most of you donít want to hear it

Anyone concidering joining please please do your homework. I now have absolutely no passion for flying aeroplanes my moral is in the toilet and my work ethic sucks arse. Itís not my character and Iím not proud of it, thatís what you have to
look forward to.

Itís no secret a combined seniority list has been on the cards for years probably should have happened years ago IMHO

Social media is probably the most powerful tool in the shed in todayís world

just sayin
Yeah, that social media really has worked as a replacement for a backbone hasnít it?
Kitsune is offline  
Old 13th Sep 2018, 19:58
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: In Sin
Age: 50
Posts: 75
The DPA are asking for feedback from its members, to produce a question bank to put to company management.
A wee bit pointless, as the COS is inplace.

The days of annual pay rises at KA are done. The COS negotiations for next year are already looking like a damp squib.
The DPA president had a confidential meeting with the bosses. All rather hush hush the result.
However, its looking like zero pay increase for a three year period, starting in April 2019 until March 2022.

TheGreenDragon is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2018, 12:10
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Rabbit Hutch
Posts: 116
What a bunch of Prima Donnas. CoS 18 is a fortune to Filipinos and Indos etc. Open the doors to them and watch Cebu, Air Asia etc whinge like a Rex about poaching.
Dragon Pacific is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2018, 13:37
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: UK London
Posts: 3
COS18 moves everything from salary to annual leave to the so called pilot's handbook.
Virtually nothing at all anymore is protected by our contractual rights.
Who will be willing to voluntary opt in for this piece of shXt?
For those of you who have a choice, you have been warned not to come!
CathayDragonPacific is offline  
Old 15th Sep 2018, 02:36
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 148
So we have 4 years of a training ban that has/hasnít achieved much. Iím not informed enough to be opinionated. One thing is has achieved has been to make those still in training very valuable to the company. It wasnít that long ago that the company brought in TCC to avoid upgrading more STC and avoid the cost. Canít argue that the training ban by the rank and file has been great for those still in training. And the trainers feel the AOA isnít supportive of them, a valid point, yet they would only have leverage via the AOA because of the very training ban they donít support.
At the same time we have those not in the AOA bemoaning the fact that theyíre not getting any (possible) assistance from the AOA during a difficult financial situation with liveaboards.
As a pilot body could we be any more confused?
morningcoffee is offline  
Old 15th Sep 2018, 06:19
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Hong kong
Posts: 98
The AOA has been a disfunctional body since 99 , it has no teeth because the membership is weak , too many self serving interests . If the pilot body for once stood together and said screw cos18 . This is what we are demanding instead and be prepared to walk it would be done in a couple of weeks . If all the trainers resigned with total support of the members it would add even more pressure work , but in that instance anyone taking a training position would be dealt with and I don’t mean a letter
Sorry I was dreaming that we actually had a Union fit for purpose
Tea time is offline  
Old 15th Sep 2018, 06:21
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by morningcoffee View Post
So we have 4 years of a training ban that has/hasnít achieved much. Iím not informed enough to be opinionated. One thing is has achieved has been to make those still in training very valuable to the company. It wasnít that long ago that the company brought in TCC to avoid upgrading more STC and avoid the cost. Canít argue that the training ban by the rank and file has been great for those still in training. And the trainers feel the AOA isnít supportive of them, a valid point, yet they would only have leverage via the AOA because of the very training ban they donít support.
At the same time we have those not in the AOA bemoaning the fact that theyíre not getting any (possible) assistance from the AOA during a difficult financial situation with liveaboards.
As a pilot body could we be any more confused?
Totally agree.
United we stand, divided we fall.
unitedabx is offline  

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